Posted on 11/21/2011 12:43:59 PM PST by Former Fetus
The abolition of Lord's holy days and sabbath by traditional Christianity are not provable through scripture.
Tradition is the ONLY justification for not observing the days that the Lord God created.
There are three types of law: ceremonial, civil and moral law. After Christ, the only one left enforced was moral law. The 10 Commandments are still applicable. The civil and ceremonial laws may or may not be observed. Israel may still enforce some civil law from OT times, that’s fine. Ceremonial law, such as the dietary ones, may be observed but don’t need to be. Christ has allowed whoever wants to observe those laws as well as those who do not. The point was not to judge or persecute those who want to observe laws against milk or pork, etc. If the SDAs want to restrict their diets, that is fine, but they are not to condem those who do not follow those restrictions. If you are leading the class, i recommend that you broach this topic at the start, lay down how much time you will address that topic, be done with it and move on. It sounds like it could derail an otherwise fascinating discussion. God be with you. : )
28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
But then he adds in verse 31:
31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
Not sure where this all fits. Seems like Paul didn't feel right discarding the law, but felt it wasn't required for justification.
| Seventh-day Adventists - Wikipedia |
| Seventh-day Adventists - Catholic Answers |
the question FF poses will never be solved as long as people feel free to reject the teaching authority of the Church.
in Matthew 28, Jesus is recorded as giving the Church AUTHORITY to teach and baptize.
man feels free to reject the teaching authority of the Church and decide that they can come to truth by reading the Scriptures alone.
of course, this approach denies the role the Holy Spirit plays in leading the Church to all truth and it also denies our responsibility to learn from the Church what truth is.
so, where are we left with this approach? The Sabbath is a great example, one person tells us we don’t have to keep the Sabbath and quotes the Bible to support their position. Then a SDA comes along and says we MUST keep the Sabbath and accuses the Church of being pagan, quoting the same Bible to support their position.
neither has any AUTHORITY to teach, both are merely giving their opinion and both can’t be correct.
the only way we can KNOW we have truth is by keeping the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Faith that has been taught and believed by Christians for 2,000 years.
heretics such as the SDA that attack the Church are false prophets leading many astray that Jesus told us would arise.
that Christians never kept the Sabbath and always worshipped on the first day of the week means nothing to these lost souls. that some who seperated from the Church in the 16th century retain the worship on the first day is wonderful.
but the bottom line is one of AUTHORITY.
The Church is the pillar of truth given to us to teach us truth, all those who have ears listen.
As a Jewish person, I would state that they are not Jewish and thus not bound by the Covenant of Mt. Sinai, but rather the 7 laws of Noah that binds all people.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_Laws_of_Noah#Legal_status_of_an_observer_of_Noahide_Laws
This does include some dietary restrictions.
I understand some Christians deem themselves honorary Jewish people of some sort; logically dietary restrictions would follow.
“Plus, some of the stuff in The Torah doesn’t make any sense. Just being honest.”
Well, that’s because the written Torah (”written law”) is only part of the story. Parts are essentially an index.
It has to be read with the Talmud (”oral law”).
The 10 Commandments are what we called "timeless truths"...general principles that will never change. They were spoken to all Israel.
The rest of the law given in Exodus was given afterwards, only to Moses because the people were afraid to hear it. This further detail was given about how to specifically walk out those timeless truths in the 10 Commandments for their particular culture and time period.
Example: "Love the Lord your God" (from the 10 Commandments) would involve at that time building a Tabernacle and being led by the priests.
However, during David's time 400 years later the worship was changed and added to. The Temple replaced the Tabernacle, expanded musical worship was introduced and a King now would lead.
The forms of the law changed...however, the timeless truth...the 10 Commandments... did not.
Today the forms of the law continue to change even as believers adapt their law to their culture. But still those timeless truths remain and will remain as long as the earth remains.
I was taught that Christian Sunday worship dated to immediately after Christ's death. That some early Christians were Hebrew and some were not. The Hebrews still kept their Shabbat but the non-Hebrew Christians did not, so they scheduled worship services for the morning after the end of the Shabbat so the Hebrew Christians could attend.
So, law is optional for Christians?
svcw wrote:
“Old Testament is the Law, the New Testament is Grace.”
I am not looking to start a fight, svcw, but this statement simply is not true. The Old Testament is full of the teaching of grace and the New Testament has a great deal of very pointed law (moral law) that shows us to be condemned sinners.
One of the problems Bible believing people have is that the word “law/Law” in the New Testament has more than one meaning. It has be read according to its context. When the Septuagint (LXX) was translated, about the 3rd century B.C., the translators chose to translate the Hebrew word “torah” as the Greek “nomos.” This was a very unfortunate choice, one arrived at because of the legalistic (I would say “pharisaical,” but that would be an anachronistic use of the term) theology of the translators.
The Hebrew word “torah” means teaching or doctrine. The Greek word “nomos” means law. It is important to remember then that the Greek word in the New Testament (as well as in the Septuagint) often means “torah” and NOT law as law. When it means “torah” it should be understood either as a) the five books of Moses, b) by extension from that (synecdoche), the whole of the Old Testament, of which the Torah of Moses is chief part (much as the Gospels are the chief part of the NT), or c) the theological or doctrinal content of the Old Testament, i.e., the revealed will of God in the OT. The context alone (Scripture interprets Scripture) determines how the Greek word “nomos” is to be understand. Again, whether as 1) law, which it can mean, or 2) “torah” and then, in which sense, a), b) or c).
Failure to understand this leads to the false impression that the Old Testament is all law and the New Testament all grace or gospel. The result will be a confusing tangle.
Take a practical example or two: First, Matthew 5:17 quotes Jesus as saying: “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.” Here “Law” clearly is to be understood as meaning 2a), the five books of Moses which, together with the Prophets, is referring to the Old Testament as a whole. The interpretation then is very simple and clear. Jesus came to fulfill the Old Testament and all that it teaches and foretells.
Second, John 1:16-17 says: “And of His (the Word’s/Christ’s) fullness we have all received, and grace for grace (a better translation would be “grace upon grace”). For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.” Here the word law is again to be understood NOT as 1) law, but as 2) “torah,” probably a), but possibly b) or c). The interpretation then is again very simple and clear: Moses was the human author of the Torah, but the grace and truth within it always had its source and origin in Him “who is in the bosom of the Father.” The Messiah/Christ is the chief content and teaching of the Old Testament, as Jesus Himself will make still more clear in John 5:39-40.
The Old Testament contains both law (what God demands of us and which shows us to be condemned sinners) and gospel/grace (what God promises us who are condemned sinners on the basis of what the promised Messiah/Christ would do. The New Testament contains both as well, but now put in terms not of Him who will come, but who has come ... and so fulfilled the Law and the Prophets (Matthew 5:17)
One could cite many, many, many other examples.
All of the Old Testament sacrifices, sacraments, rites, together with the callings of prophet, priest, and king are to be interpreted as prophetic of the coming Messiah, the promised Savior. When He has come and fulfilled all righteousness, then the “shadows” of the Old Testament have reached to the objective reality they reflect.
I completely agree as long as you agree that "Church" means what the bible says it means...which, transliterated according to Strong's Concordance, is:
ekklēsia
From a compound of G1537 and a derivative of G2564; a calling out, that is, (concretely) a popular meeting, especially a religious congregation (Jewish synagogue, or Christian community of members on earth or saints in heaven or both): - assembly, church.
man feels free to reject the teaching authority of the Church and decide that they can come to truth by reading the Scriptures alone.
The church absolutely has teaching authority. But if a church is teaching things that are not biblical then it's incumbent upon the Christian to reject those teachings as non-scriptural.
that Christians never kept the Sabbath and always worshipped on the first day of the week means nothing to these lost souls. that some who seperated from the Church in the 16th century retain the worship on the first day is wonderful.
That's simply not biblical nor true. The teaching of Jesus Christ is that the sabbath, the 7th day, is holy. Jesus Christ created it holy and it's recorded in Genesis chapter 2, verse 2.
Gen 2:3 Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.
When Christ appeared to Israel at Mt. Sinai he affirmed the holiness of the sabbath he created and commanded his worshippers to keep it holy:
Exo 20:8 "Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.
Exo 20:9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work,
Exo 20:10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates.
Exo 20:11 For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.
This is about as clear as it gets. Christ, God himself, created the sabbath holy. Christ, God himself, told his followers to keep HIS sabbath holy.
It doesn't matter how much you finagle it or what you call it...tradition has made the word of God no effect when it comes to the Lord's holy sabbath.
Jos 24:15 And if it seems evil to you to serve the LORD, choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD."
And the only way to know if it's biblical or not is to: A). Acts 17:11; search "the Scriptures daily, whether those things are so", and B). 2 Timothy 2:15. STUDY and rightly divide the word of truth.
If a person does not do these things, and relies on the "church" to tell them what the Scriptures say, then they are ripe for deceit. Another gospel, another Jesus, another spirit, another doctrine, etc.
Jesus gave us a New Covenant, and a New Commandment. Christians should focus on New Testament Commandments. Here is a study on the subject:
http://www.faithfulwisdom.com/FirstLove.html
However, the outward working of law changes all the time.
The first order of business is to decide:shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiachDid Yah'shua say:
if you love me keep my commandments ?Did Yah'shua say :
"Do not think that I came to abolish the Law
or the Prophets;
I did not come to abolish but to fulfill.
***Exo 20:8 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.***
You forgot something!
Deu 5:2 The LORD our God made a covenant with us in Horeb.
Deu 5:3 The LORD made NOT THIS COVENANT with our fathers, but with us, [even] us, who [are] all of us here alive this day.
Deu 5:6 I [am] the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage.
Deu 5:7 Thou shalt have none other gods before me.
Deu 5:12 Keep the sabbath day to sanctify it, as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee.
Deu 5:13 Six days thou shalt labour, and do all thy work:
Deu 5:14 But the seventh day [is] the sabbath of the LORD.
Deu 5:15 And remember that thou wast a servant in the land of Egypt, and [that] the LORD thy God brought thee out thence through a mighty hand and by a stretched out arm: THEREFORE the LORD thy God commanded thee to keep the sabbath day.
“The Sabbath was “Made” by Jesus. He said it. And he “made” it centuries before there was any Jew.”
Google is your friend, FRiend. Check the time line for when there were Jews and when a certain Essene named Jesus walked amongst us.
Given your position of the Sababth and the centrality of it to Jews, I wondered if there was some typo regarding what I quoted from your post.
***The abolition of Lord’s holy days and sabbath by traditional Christianity are not provable through scripture. ****
When Israel ceased to be a nation the Sabbaths ceased. That would be the Babylonian captivity AND 70 AD when the Temple was destroyed.
The nation Israel still has no Temple.
Hsa 2:11 I will also cause all her mirth to cease, her feast days, her new moons, and her sabbaths, and all her solemn feasts.
Need to lay off that Herbert W Armstrongism wine.
“That’s simply not biblical nor true”
Really?
The one thing we know for certain from Church History is that whenever a new doctrine was introduced that was not Scriptural nor received from the Apostolic Tradition, a huge controversy ensued.
So, we know the SDA was formed in the mid 19th century by Ellen White.
where were the “true” Sabbath keeping Christians when the pagans brought the worship of the sun into the “christian” church? who stood up to these pagans and proclaimed Christians need to keep the Sabbath? what were their names, where are their writings?
why did it take 19 centuries before biblical Christianity was restored to the earth? ( just about the same time another false prophet by the name of Joseph Smith was claiming to “restore” the church )
no my friend, Jesus said He would be with us always, even to the end of time. He also said the gates of hell would not prevail against the Church.
don’t you realize that the men who set the 27 book NT canon were all sunday worshipping pagans in your eyes?
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.