Posted on 06/28/2009 12:09:35 PM PDT by Colofornian
From the article: The mob pushed their rifles through the partially opened door and the prophet Joseph Smith aimed and began firing a six-shooter pistol, but only three barrels fired. The mob fired back.
Yup. "The mob fired back." (Ya better believe that ANY prisoner in ANY jail with a loaded weapon is likely to be fired upon!!!)
From the article: The destruction of the press was not the best public relations move for Smith, a presidential candidate.
(Understatement of the day)
From the article: In Nauvoo, Smith held the titles of president and prophet of his church and also held the positions of mayor, court judge and commander of the militia called the Nauvoo Legion.
#1 While Smith assumed all this public power, his first wife, Emma, actually said it wasn't his public persona that led to his gun-battle death...she said it was the "secret things" that did him in-- meaning polygamy. Smith took dozens of wives on the sly; one guy finally decided to publish something about it in the Nauvoo Expositor; Smith ordered the destruction of that printing press to keep his polygamy secret; and that's when the locals had enough of his criminal shenanigans (he was a criminal bigamist/polygamist; a corrupt bully-mayor, etc).
#2 Ever notice how Lds general authorities (top leaders of the church) are EACH on many different boards of companies, etc? Ever notice how Brigham Young was simultaneous "prophet" of the church & Utah territorial governor? As the article says: Young established a theocracy in Salt Lake City where the Mormon religion and government shared no separation. Young began preaching an end-of-the-world scenario where God would exact vengeance on gentiles. Mormon leaders preached a doctrine of 'blood atonement' for the previous persecution of Mormons. Some historians and scholars believe that this blood-for-blood doctrine and the end-times rhetoric resulted in the incident that would become known as the Mountain Meadows massacre.
From the article: A government investigation later revealed that Mormons disarmed the men, separated them from the women and children and led them all into a field where they were shot dead. Two years later, the remains of the immigrants lay unburied where they were killed. Government investigator Brevet Major J.H. Carleton surveyed the crime scene, which he called 'one too horrible and sickening for language to describe. Human skeletons, disjointed bones, ghastly skulls and the hair of women were scattered in frightful profusion over a distance of two miles.'
What do you want them to do discredit their own foundings? And Muslims should have an honest discussion about Mohammed and child molestation? I don’t think that’s realistic or even constructive, actually.
no, it wasn't his "political ideas" that he wanted to further...it was the thought of taking on 13 yro girls as brides as many as he wanted and never having to face the law nor God about it....because he created the god that allowed that....how cozy....
religions do that....smooth the way to rationalize all sorts of behaviour...
I appreciate the mostly good people that are Mormons....I know the good and the bad and ugly of them....good marriage, family values,patriotism, etc...but the foundation that Mormonism arises from....yikes....there is just no explaining it in a good way....I wish there was...
Not a bad idea -- to revisit that which in history we trust 100% with our lives & eternal lives...For those who might want to do that, #1: Here's a related thread posted yesterday: See Today in History - June 27
In a nutshell, why might someone want to revisit their spiritual heritage as "history?"
As one ex-Mormon put it on another recent thread Why we've left and how we find support: The 2009 Exmormon Conference, "Fittingly, this year's theme is 'No Price Too High.' It's worth losing everything if it means gaining truth. A life lived in a lie is not a life worth living."
So, frankly, in response to your And Muslims should have an honest discussion about Mohammed and child molestation? I don’t think that’s realistic or even constructive, actually -- truth vs. living a lie is always taking realism to heart -- and constructive!
As this ex-Mormon above (Jonathan Montgomery), also commented: We reached a point where we realized that it was more likely that our faith was wrong than that everything about Mormonism (angels, gold plates, lost civilizations, the "inspired" Book of Abraham translation...) was true. Simply put, faith can only go so far. If enough information about the world contradicts our beliefs, the only way for faith to survive is for it to transition into something more akin to denial.
Wellll...a START would be for them to stop knocking on the doors of people of faith by the tens of thousands and telling them that THEIR beliefs are "abominable" and the mormon way is the only way to salvation.
Once these important principles are understood, we can then explain and expand the understanding of our Father’s children by sharing with them how Jesus Himself established and organized His Church in the meridian of time by giving “some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
“For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ” (Eph. 4:11–12).
From there we can help our friends and neighbors understand the Apostasy, or falling away from the original Church organized by the Lord, which was prophesied by those who helped to establish the Church in the first place. Paul wrote to the Thessalonian Christians who were eagerly anticipating the Second Coming of the Savior that “that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first” (2 Thes. 2:3). He also warned Timothy that “the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but … they shall turn away their ears from the truth” (2 Tim. 4:3–4). And Peter presupposed a falling away when he spoke of “the times of refreshing” that would come before God would again “send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
“Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began” (Acts 3:19–21).
Do you see how naturally and easily one principle of the Restoration leads to the next? Peter’s prophecy almost begs for a discussion of the restoration of the gospel in these latter days through the Prophet Joseph Smith. This in turn demands a dialogue about the coming forth of the Book of Mormon and the restoration of the holy priesthood through the gift and power of God. From there it is so natural to share the principle of continuing revelation and the organization of the Church and its doctrines and programs."
M. Russell Ballard
I love these posts of yours on the history of the Mormons.
And to think that one of my gr.gr.gr.gr.etc. Grampas was there. When Young took over he had already hightailed it to the south, Texas I think, with his first wife and his three new young wives.
Heh.
It was a rather one-sided gun battle: hundreds of fully armed militiamen launched an unprovoked attack again four men armed with two pistols and a couple of sticks. It hardly deserves the grand title of "gun battle."
From the article: The mob pushed their rifles through the partially opened door and the prophet Joseph Smith aimed and began firing a six-shooter pistol, but only three barrels fired. The mob fired back.
Yup. "The mob fired back." (Ya better believe that ANY prisoner in ANY jail with a loaded weapon is likely to be fired upon!!!)
Nope. The mob did not "fire back." The mob was already firing and had, in fact, killed his brother Hyrum. It was Joseph Smith who "fired back."
Your observation about an armed prisoner being fired upon is beside the point. The mob did not murder Joseph and Hyrum Smith because the prisoners had loaded weapons; I doubt any of the murderers even knew that.
No, the mob came to the jail with the intent to lynch the Smiths and their companions, and would have done so had the prisoners been unarmed. And indeed, the mob also shot John Taylor, who had no weapon but his walking stick.
so...he kind of died like Che????
Well, first of all, that's actually coming a long way for a Mormon just to admit a gun-battle happened at all. To read normal Lds accounts, or to be in Nauvoo where the Mormons give accounts of what happened to tourists, you'd never ever hear the words "gun battle." I mean, how white washed is that of history?
Secondly, "hundreds of militiamen" were indeed present outside the jail -- but hundreds didn't storm the jail. [That's a bit overkill of a descriptor on your part]
Nope. The mob did not "fire back." The mob was already firing and had, in fact, killed his brother Hyrum. It was Joseph Smith who "fired back." Your observation about an armed prisoner being fired upon is beside the point. The mob did not murder Joseph and Hyrum Smith because the prisoners had loaded weapons; I doubt any of the murderers even knew that. No, the mob came to the jail with the intent to lynch the Smiths and their companions, and would have done so had the prisoners been unarmed.
Logo, you can't even get your own story straight...first you indicate they came in w/blazing rifles, shooting Hyrum & then the others. Then you say the mob wasn't intent upon shooting anyone (lynching somebody instead). Which is it? (Or were they planning on lynching somebody with a rifle or two?)
Even if they were intent upon lynching them, and saw one of them with his six-shooter in hand, then, of course, they'd open fire.
And as, for Joseph Smith, yes, they fired back at him -- it appears he got a couple of shots off at 2-3 before they shot anything at him. That would indeed make it relevant that Smith was an armed prisoner -- another little "nugget" often missing from Lds history recounts & tourist presentations.
You can see the Mormon agenda often by what they deliberately leave out of the discussion.
Joseph Smith aimed and began firing a six-shooter pistol, but only three barrels fired.
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Well. that was good shooting on Joey Smith’s part. He shot three men and two of them died.
Yeah, compare the would-be news headlines on June 28, 1844:
Mormon Times & Season: Lynchmob Assassinates Prophet of God
Nauvoo Tell-It-Like-It-Is: Armed Prisoner Shot and Killed in Gun Battle
What were the names of the two martyrs that Joseph Smith Jr murdered ???
Are you bothered that some tour guide did not use the term "gun battle" when describing that murders of Joseph and Hyrum Smith? If so, I can see your point: battle makes the actions of the mob sound so much grander than lynching.
That is, if several hundred militiamen armed with rifles attack and kill four unarmed men, the militiamen look like cowardly thugs. But if one of the four shoots back with a pistol, you can call it a "battle" and the militiamen suddenly sound heroic.
By the way, your charge that we have whitewashed history is silly. We Mormons have been recounting the events of 27 June 1844 since they happened.
I have here a book published by the LDS Church titled Church History in the Fulness of Times: The History of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Salt Lake City: 1989). Not only does the book say that Joseph and Hyrum were armed, one with a pepper-box pistol, the other with a single-shot pistol; it actually shows a photograph of both weapons. (Hyrum's pistol was not fired.)
Secondly, "hundreds of militiamen" were indeed present outside the jail -- but hundreds didn't storm the jail. [That's a bit overkill of a descriptor on your part]
I said nothing about how many stormed the jail. But the militiamen outside the jail—who had been charged with protecting the prisoners—took part in the attack. Even the article you posted clearly indicates that Hyrum and Joseph Smith were struck by rifle balls fired from the hallway of the jail and from outside the jail. My description of the event was accurate.
Logo, you can't even get your own story straight...first you indicate they came in w/blazing rifles, shooting Hyrum & then the others.
Go back and read the article you posted.
Then you say the mob wasn't intent upon shooting anyone (lynching somebody instead). Which is it? (Or were they planning on lynching somebody with a rifle or two?)
I said nothing of the sort. You seemed confused about the meaning of lynch. The dictionary definition of lynch is "to put to death by mob action without legal sanction or due process of law."
Even if they were intent upon lynching them, and saw one of them with his six-shooter in hand, then, of course, they'd open fire.
Of course they would.
Tell me, do you believe the mob acted in self-defense when they killed Joseph Smith?
Hyrum and Joseph Smith were struck by rifle balls fired from the hallway of the jail
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And who opened the door to the hallway ???
Joey Smith...
And he fired his weapon down the hall and killed 2 men...
What's "untold" is what the Lds tour guides seem to always leave out @ the Carthage Jail. He says he's been through the tour several times since the 1980s -- and not once do the guides EVER volunteer that the Smith brothers had smuggled guns brought into them by visitor Cyrus Wheelock (J. Smith had a six-shooter; H. Smith had a derringer).
McKeever talks about how on his first tour of the Carthage Jail, Elder Salt (of all names) gave this dramatic story and three times emphasized that the "only defense" the four Mormons had was to block the door with their bodies and fight off the attackers with their walking sticks. (McKeever says indeed, they blocked the door with their bodies & indeed, John Taylor had a walking stick, but "only defense?")
When McKeever asked about the smuggled guns, the tour guide first tried to deflect the question about how "you can't believe everything you read" -- but when McKeever pointed out that the book was the Lds Documentary History of the Church and that the statement came from later-to-be Lds "prophet" Taylor -- the guide could only look at the floor with great chagrin.
According to Taylor's account -- as recounted by McKeever -- Hyrum Smith took a bullet through the door...Lds historian Richard Bushman (p. 550) of his bio of Smith says Hyrum Smith was shot through his left nose...and BTW a bullet through the brain isn't going to result in the Mormon folk tale response from Hyrum where, upon being shot, he was somehow able to utter, "I am a dead man."
Joseph Smith then reacts by pulling his gun out of his pocket, opens the door and attempts to unload all 6 shots -- 3 misfire, he shoots 3 and kills 2. He then leaps up on the window ledge to try to cry the Masonic signal for help ("Oh lord my God, is there no help for the widow's son?") -- but falls in a hail of bullets -- at least one from the door & at least one from the windows outside...hit 4 times he dies...only being able to get out the initial part of the Masonic distress signal, "Oh lord my God..."
McKeever points out that this is a big difference -- someone screaming a distress signal trusting in a fellow Mason to rescue him -- than the film that romanticizes the death of Smith shown at the Joseph Smith Memorial Building, where they have him utter this phrase as the camera pans upward and into the blue sky -- as if it was a direct greeting to God.
Well, we don't know. In the video clip I posted in the previous post...McKeever actually said every time he's visited the Carthage Jail tour, he's been sure to bring up the smuggled guns:
Another Lds Carthage Jail tour guide (not the Elder Salt he referenced) tried to white wash the smuggled guns by saying, "Oh, they weren't smuggled in. They were brought in." He said one guide tried telling him that Cyrus Wheelock told the jail guard, "I'm here to assassinate the prisoner(s)."
Of course, McKeever didn't believe this report from the Lds Carthage Jail tour guide -- he's never heard that story from anywhere else and couldn't cite any original source this tour guide was possibly relying upon. But what if that tour guide was actually correct in this case? What if Wheelock thought the best way to get guns into the cell was to just bring them in in plain sight -- point it out to the jail guard. What then?
Well, McKeever says the tour guide then told him that the jail guard who let Wheelock in, gun(s) in tow, went off-duty. (Again, McKeever didn't believe this tour guide account). Well, what if as the jail guard was leaving his post, he told the militia men outside that the Smith brothers were now armed? Now that changes the dynamics, doesn't it?
Now any other jail guard hearing of this knows his life is possibly at risk anytime he might pull the prisoners from the room. And now the militiamen actually have a valid reason to storm the jail -- armed prisoners. If that was the case, no wonder the jail guard let armed militiamen in -- and no wonder the armed militiamen didn't hesitate upon firing into the building.
Maybe that Lds tour guide knew something historically correct, after all?
Apparently not. Although the Mormons believed an early report that two men had died, it seems that report was in error. The three men who were wounded by the prophet—named Wills, Voras and Gallaher—were later indicted for the murders; their wounds were evidence that they had been present. So far as we can tell, none of them died from their wounds.
Tell me, do you believe the mob acted in self-defense when they killed Joseph Smith?
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You shoot at a policeman and see what happens...
If the Documentary History of the Church tells about the guns, then the Church is not suppressing or whitewashing the story as you and Mr. McKeever would have us believe. Indeed, a June 1994 article in the Church's Magazine, the Ensign, mentions the weapons:
The four men had two firearms among them, left behind by friends: a single-shot pistol Joseph had passed to Hyrum and a six-shot pistol, called a pepperbox, which the Prophet retained. They also had two walking canes: a large hickory stick called a “rascal-beater” and a smaller walking cane. Joseph’s companions had used both to beat back the rabble while making their way from the Hamilton House to the jail two days earlier.Unfortunately, we will have to take Mr. McKeever's word for what some tour guide may or may not have said on the subject.
Hyrum Smith took a bullet through the door... Joseph Smith then reacts by pulling his gun out of his pocket, opens the door and attempts to unload all 6 shots -- 3 misfire, he shoots 3 and kills 2.
So much for your theory that the mob began shooting because they saw the gun in Joseph's hand.
Of course, it was not much of a theory to begin with: the mob had already shot and killed Hyrum through the door of the room. Even if he had drawn his weapon, no one in the mob could have seen it.
No, the members of the mob were not fired upon, threatened, or otherwise incited by Joseph Smith or any of his companions. The mob murdered Joseph and Hyrum Smith (and severely wounded John Taylor) in cold blood, and before either could stand trial.
. . . only being able to get out the initial part of the Masonic distress signal, "Oh lord my God..." -- as if it was a direct greeting to God.
Since no one but Joseph Smith and God can know what was going through Joseph's mind—or what he might have said next—this is all speculation. It certainly sounds as if Joseph was calling to God. Even if he intended to give the Masonic distress call, that it still a call to God—the Masons, so far as I know, believe in God.
The fact remains, Joseph Smith and his brother Hyrum were lynched by a mob. Surely you are not making excuses for the actions of the mob, are you?
A nice red herring you have there.
The members of the mob weren't policemen or even jail guards; they were militiamen who had been ordered by the governor to disband and go home.
Instead of returning home, they volunteered to attack the jail and kill the Smiths. Some men in the mob blackened their faces to disguise their identities. None were acting in any official capacity.
As I pointed out in my previous post, the members of the mob were not fired upon, threatened, or otherwise incited by Joseph Smith or any of his companions. The mob murdered Joseph and Hyrum Smith (and severely wounded John Taylor) in cold blood, before either could stand trial.
Surely you are not making excuses for the actions of the mob, are you?
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