Posted on 12/19/2008 7:11:21 AM PST by Zechariah11
The most commonly accepted interpretation of Christ's prayer in the Garden is that our Lord was seeking some way of avoiding the Cross. Yet, this seems entirely inconsistent with his thoughts and actions prior to and after this event.
The best take I have heard about "this cup" is that it related to His acute suffering of hematohidrosis which brings the sufferer close to death and increases the sensitivity of the skin -- making scourging, pummeling, cross bearing, etc. that much the worse.
I think this prayer was answered in the affirmative by the Father, an angel stregnthened the Lord, and he was able to proceed with His mission.
I believe I first came across this take from the teaching of R.B. Thieme. Has anyone else heard or read an exposition other than that our Lord was dreading the Cross and the physical/spiritual sufferings?
“The most commonly accepted interpretation of Christ’s prayer in the Garden is that our Lord was seeking some way of avoiding the Cross. Yet, this seems entirely inconsistent with his thoughts and actions prior to and after this event.”
I always thought that the man side of the man/God Jesus was the source of this prayer.
If that “RB Theime” is the Bob Theime of Baracha Church in Houston, Texas, I opine -— while the man had great Biblical knowledge -— he was an agenda-driven nutcase.
As part of my seeking (I was (am) Jewish), I attended his church. Most hate-filled dysfunctional, unhappy place I’ve ever come across.
Had lots of semi-mathematical formulas that looked good, but didn’t add up.
That said, I have no idea on this issue.
bfltr
Kinky? Is that you?
No, I think what shook our Lord was that it was in Gethsemane that all of our sins began falling on Him, that this holiest, most innocent of beings felt the slimy, filthy taint of every sin ever committed on His perfect person as He became sin for us so that sin might be judged.
Shalom.
Nope. Didn’t vote for him, either.
Here are the verses in Hebrews that indicate that Christ was, indeed, struggling with striving against the death on the cross ...
Hbr 12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset [us], and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,
Hbr 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of [our] faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
Hbr 12:3 For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds.
Hbr 12:4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.
Psalms 75 or 76 talks about the cup of FOAMING wine that each of us must drink from. In my case, this was right before the burden (the storm) hit my life.
Understand the meataphor?
Hematohidrosis can be brought about by extreme stress and, yes, we know that our Lord sweated blood. Luke the physician describes it. However, I agree with DonaldC that it was the human nature in Jesus, fully man and fully God, that wanted to avoid the cross.
Revelation 14:10 tells us what is in the cup. Christ was looking forward as to what would come. Now 'IF' it was the Will of the Heavenly Father this would not need be.
He was the source of life , healing and blessings and the prospect of crucifixion along with the curse would be abhorrent to Him and His nature. It was not that He was afraid, but this was so foreign and repulsive (like sin) that the only way He could endure was to be assured it was His Fathers will.
I agree. Fully man and yet also fully divine. The human side walked among humans, felt weariness, suffering, hunger, pain, etc. It would be natural for his humanity to wish that the cup be taken away. However, the fully divine side knew that the cup would not be taken away. His father didn’t take the cup, but gave extra grace and strength.
I appreciate those verses but don’t feel they make a compelling case that this was the source of distress at that particular time. Didn’t the Lord upbraid Peter for seeking what expositors say our Lord would be seeking. Too much inconsistency - imho -here for our Lord who was fully determined to go to the cross.
I also have had issues with Thieme but I wouldn’t call him a nutcase. His teaching in the 60s was truly outstanding. He did get too oblique in his later years. It has happened to others. In my opinion Arthur Pink was a far superior teacher, far more grace-oriented, early in his career.
Here i would disagree. Most analyses would offer that those sins didn't begin to fall upon Christ until the darkness at noon.
That would contradict his often expressed willingness and set determination to see this through. I understand your position is the one shared by most --- it just doesn't comport. To me that view is just totally foreign for the Lord. I just don't "buy it." He knew the Cross was necessary so why would he pray otherwise. However, the Lord may have been utterly caught off guard by the near heart-attack of hemohidrosis.
It was here that Jesus agonized in prayer over what was to occur. It is significant that this is the only place in the KJV where the word "agony" is mentioned (Strong's concordance). The Greek word for agony means to be "engaged in combat" (Pink) Jesus agonizes over what He is to go through, feeling that He is at the point of death.(Mark14:34) Yet He prays, "Not my will, but thine be done." GETHSEMANE--
Of medical significance is that Luke mentions Him as having sweat like blood. The medical term for this, "hemohidrosis" or "hematidrosis" has been seen in patients who have experienced, extreme stress or shock to their systems. (Edwards) The capillaries around the sweat pores become fragile and leak blood into the sweat. A case history is recorded in which a young girl who had a fear of air raids in WW1 developed the condition after a gas explosion occurred in the house next door (Scott). Another report mentions a nun who, as she was threatened with death by the swords of the enemy soldiers," was so terrified that she bled from every part of her body and died of hemorrhage in the sight of her assailants" (Grafenberg).
Why pray to avoid the Cross when He knew He was sent to other for that very purpose? He had forewarned the disciples. Are we saying that the Lord is telling the Father, I didn’t know what I was getting into? That analysis doesn’t add up.
I had the displeasure of meeting Theime and certain people around him in the 1990s.
Never a more disfunctional group I have ever seen.
His opinions on abortions (he thought they’re just dandy) made me wonder about many of his teachings.
He was screaming at someone who dared look at his watch during a sermon.
Lacking understanding of grace and love, as you note, was a weakness. All about knowledge, little about ACTION.
In this Christmas/Chanuka season, I note that his house had nary a Christmas decoration on it — and that was back when he was healthy with his sons around to help.
In short, I really, really disliked the man.
He had an answer he would want and he would pluck scripture from here and there until he got to that answer.
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