Again, Jews Fault Mormons Over Posthumous Baptisms

NY Times ^ | December 21, 2003 | IAN URBINA

[scripter]

Ahem. From post 628:

So you don't have a source for this statement?

During the time of conception the Holy Spirit stood guard so no corruption could manifested!

Or is that your own interpretation?

And your physical evidence the text was altered and deleted is...

[restornu]

The scripture already said the Holy Spirit came upon Mary.

When the Holy spirit is upon you in this situation no other forces can penetrate the Holy Light!

[scripter]

Have a great Christmas.

[restornu]

Have a Merry Christmas to you Scripter!:)

[airedale]

When I got back from shopping I realized that I'd slaughtered the nature of the Trinity and was falling into one of the early heresies in trying to really .simplify it. I should have stuck with part of one of the major creeds. “The late Dr. Walter wrote: “ No man can fully explain the Trinity, though in every age scholars have propounded theories and advanced hypotheses to explore this mysterious Biblical teaching. But despite the worthy efforts of these scholars, the Trinity is still largely incomprehensible to the mind of man.”
To get it right the following is from the Catholic Encyclopedia http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15047a.htm
“The Trinity is the term employed to signify the central doctrine of the Christian religion -- the truth that in the unity of the Godhead there are Three Persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, these Three Persons being truly distinct one from another. Thus, in the words of the Athanasian Creed: "the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God, and yet there are not three Gods but one God." In this Trinity of Persons the Son is begotten of the Father by an eternal generation, and the Holy Spirit proceeds by an eternal procession from the Father and the Son. Yet, notwithstanding this difference as to origin, the Persons are co-eternal and co-equal: all alike are uncreated and omnipotent. This, the Church teaches, is the revelation regarding God's nature which Jesus Christ, the Son of God, came upon earth to deliver to the world: and which she proposes to man as the foundation of her whole dogmatic system.”
A different view is from the Orthodox Church in America: http://www.oca.org/pages/orth_chri/Orthodox-Faith/Doctrine/Holy-Trinity.html which is worth reading in it’s entirety since it includes a number of wrong views of the Triinity:
“Thus, the Church teaches that while there is only One God, yet there are Three who are God -- the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit -- perfectly united and never divided yet not merged into one with no proper distinction. How then does the Church defend its doctrine that God is both One and yet Three?”

[luvtheconstitution]

I doubt that any church's website is a complete compilation of every doctrine, belief, practice, etc. However, what information is contained in the site is accurate, which is the important part.

My intent is not to argue - I believe that is contrary to what Christ would want when trying to explain one's belief in Him.

[CARepubGal]

Which Christ are you talking about? One of three Separate Gods (Mormon) or the One Christians serve and love?

[luvtheconstitution]

The best books I know of to understand what the church was like that Christ established when he was on earth are the Bible and The Book of Mormon. Both are scripture. Both testify that Jesus is the Christ and that His atonement was offered freely, by Him, for everyone who has ever, does now, or will ever live on the earth.

As a Mormon, I felt totally incapable of fully living the tenets of the church in my late teens. I didn't go to church for 20 years, led a worldly life, and realized at the end of that 20 years that life without Christ as my example was less than what I wanted it to be. During that 20 year absence I even went to see the film "The God Makers" to validate my inactivity in church. What happened surprised me. I realized that there were blatant untruths in that movie. Oddly enough, it was kind of the catalyst for my return to Mormonism.

All I can tell you is that reading books written by men with varying viewpoints will do nothing but confuse you. In the Book of Mormon there is a scripture that states that if you want to know if the book is true, you read it and then pray to know if it is true. For those who sincerely want to know, the Holy Ghost will manifest the truth.

I don't wish to caste dispersions on other religions, or tell another Christian church that they are not Christians because they don't believe exactly as I do. I think that most churches do a tremendous amount of good. But, the Holy Ghost, or Holy Spirit is a comforter and a testifier of the truth. I have had countless personal experiences that have strengthened my testimony of Christ and His divine mission.

At this time of year I think of how God, the Eternal Father, sent his only begotten son to die for us that we all might live eternally with Him again.

Can you imagine what it would be like to be surrounded by people who have really internalized Christ's message - to love everyone as He loves us? No dishonesty, jealousy, bigotry, or vice of any kind in anyone's heart? That, to me, is Christ's message for us.

I hope you have a wonderful Christmas.

[Elsie]

Thus, the EVER popular...

"By their fruits......" verse

[Elsie]

I'm nobody.......

"Lord, have mercy on me: a sinner......"

[Elsie]

Both are scripture.

And, if JS had LEFT it at that, we probably would NOT be having this discussion today.

But, as we all know, he glommed a lot MORE stuff into Mormonism, calling IT scripture.

---

THAT'S the things we are 'discussing' here.

[Elsie]

Satan is STILL using the same line he started with........





Genesis 3:1
...."Did God really say........?"

Because it is STILL effective!



If one does NOT know the TRUE words of GOD, then a subsitute can be followed quite easily.

The Bible shows that god spoke to ADAM about the tree.

Did Adam fail to accurately tell EVE?
Did he ADD a little -- 'or touch it' -- to be SURE she didn't mess with it??

(We KNOW that men are ALWAYS trying to help GOD out...)

All we REALLY know is that by the time she repeated the command to Satan, it was different.

"Are you sure?" was enough to form doubts in her mind, and we ALL know 'the REST of the Story'!

[Elsie]

 

The Nicene Creed

http://www.mit.edu/~tb/anglican/intro/lr-nicene-creed.html	http://www.creeds.net/ancient/nicene.htm	http://www.reformed.org/documents/nicene.html	http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11049a.htm
We believe in one God, the Father, the Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all that is, seen and unseen. We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father, God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, of one Being with the Father.  Through him all things were made.  For us and for our salvation he came down from heaven: by the power of the Holy Spirit he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary, and was made man. For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate; he suffered death and was buried. On the third day he rose again in accordance with the Scriptures; he ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father. He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead, and his kingdom will have no end. We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, who proceeds from the Father and the Son. With the Father and the Son he is worshiped and glorified.  He has spoken through the Prophets. We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.  We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins. We look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come.   Amen.	We believe in one God the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible. And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds, God of God, Light of Light, Very God of Very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father by whom all things were made; who for us men, and for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the Virgin Mary, and was made man, and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate. He suffered and was buried, and the third day he rose again according to the Scriptures, and ascended into heaven, and sitteth on the right hand of the Father. And he shall come again with glory to judge both the quick and the dead, whose kingdom shall have no end. And we believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord and Giver of Life, who proceedeth from the Father and the Son, who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified, who spoke by the prophets. And we believe one holy catholic and apostolic Church. We acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins. And we look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.	I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible. And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds; God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God; begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father, by whom all things were made. Who, for us men for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the virgin Mary, and was made man; and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate; He suffered and was buried; and the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures; and ascended into heaven, and sits on the right hand of the Father; and He shall come again, with glory, to judge the quick and the dead; whose kingdom shall have no end. And I believe in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of Life; who proceeds from the Father and the Son; who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified; who spoke by the prophets. And I believe one holy catholic and apostolic Church. I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins; and I look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.	We believe (I believe) in one God, the Father Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible. And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God, and born of the Father before all ages. (God of God) light of light, true God of true God. Begotten not made, consubstantial to the Father, by whom all things were made.   Who for us men and for our salvation came down from heaven. And was incarnate of the Holy Ghost and of the Virgin Mary and was made man; was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate, suffered and was buried; and the third day rose again according to the Scriptures. And ascended into heaven, sits at the right hand of the Father, and shall come again with glory to judge the living and the dead, of whose Kingdom there shall be no end.   And (I believe) in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of life, who proceeds from the Father (and the Son), who together with the Father and the Son is to be adored and glorified, who spoke by the Prophets.   And one holy, catholic, and apostolic Church. We confess (I confess) one baptism for the remission of sins. And we look for (I look for) the resurrection of the dead and the life of the world to come.   Amen."

 

Surely, since the personage of Light said ALL 'creeds' were an 'abomination' to GOD, there is a definitive LDS text that picks apart THIS 'creed', piece by piece, and shows the faithful just where it is so theologically corrupt.

 

Could one of you LDS organization members post the link?

 

I cannot seem to find it.

[scripter]

I'm nobody.......

Not in my eyes. And in the eyes of our God you're a saint. You could just be a better saint if you used Mozilla. :-)

[Elsie]

Merry Christmas to ALL!

..and to all a good night!

---

 

 

 

 

Co-incidence???

[Elsie]

I absolutely HATE the learning curve that comes with something new!

"...... yeah, but it's MY devil......."

[Elsie]

(at least the LDS group has the term used right: unlike the Catholics.......)

[Elsie]

Hark!

What's that I hear??

Is it a PIN dropping perhaps??

---

I'm reminded of a carol -- "Silent Night"

[Elsie]

                      If WHAT??

 

 

 

Oh....

 

Deuteronomy 18

 

 21.  You may say to yourselves, "How can we know when a message has not been spoken by the LORD?"
 22.  If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the LORD does not take place or come true, that is a message the LORD has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously. Do not be afraid of him.

 

Oh yeah??

 

What do you call the Civil War??

[airedale]

I'm glad you returned to your faith. That can only make the world a better place and you a much better individual. I have a number of friends who are Mormon and they are great people who are strong in their beliefs. A few years ago my wife attended a dinner for Mr. Gordon Hinckley and all the Church of the Later Day Saints had done for the poor and needy in the Los Angeles area. She said he was very impressive. The award was justified. The various Stakes do a lot here in the San Fernando Valley to help the needy.

Unfortunately theology is a very difficult subject and deals with a lot of subtleties. The difference between one denomination and another might be one or two issues in some cases and others it’s a much larger chasm. Follow this link to a brief description of the differences between Protestants and Catholics.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12495a.htm The issues are accurate but it only gives the Catholic arguments. It’s also a generality since some of the points of dispute don’t apply to all Protestant denominations. That section is long enough already.

The arguments are complex and often seem to be dealing with trivia, but they are the foundation stones and if you don’t get them laid correctly everything built on that foundation will be different than you intended at the beginning. For most of us these differences don’t matter or we don’t know why they are important.

I’m a Methodist and I an not allowed to take Communion in a Catholic Church because I’m not a Catholic (decision of Catholic Church). There are enough differences that the Catholic Church while it does recognize me as a Christian I’m not in a state of Grace that allows me to partake in the Sacrament. A Catholic would be welcome at our Communion service, but the Catholic Church would frown on their participating for the same reason that they wouldn’t want me taking Communion in a Catholic service. For years the various Christian denominations have been seeking a way to iron out this problem without much progress. The theological and historical differences are to great.

Take a look at what the Church of the Latter Day Saints teaches about God, Jesus and the Holy Sprit and compare it to the Trinity. The Trinity is one of the keystones to Christianity and all Christian faiths essentially believe the same thing. I think you’ll find that the concept of the Trinity is substantially different than your church teaches.

Another is in the nature of God.

Saying that Mormons aren’t Christian isn’t disparaging it in my eyes. It’s a statement that stands on facts. It’s no different than saying that The Church of the Latter Day Saint is a Christian Church. What positions do the facts support. It's at this point in theology starts to deal with the foundational doctrines and split hairs. It’s an extremely complicated subject which each word can be and have been fought over.

The problem is that your church teaches that the Church of the Latter Day Saints is a Christian church and the rest of the Christian denominations don’t accept that view. The Church of the Latter Day Saints view that they are a Christian faith is a matter of doctrine for your church and becuase it's a matter of doctrine it's almost impossible for you to accept a different position.

From the United Methodist this link will take you to a statement on the Methodist position which is in the Book of Discipline (rules for Methodist Church): http://www.umns.umc.org/gc2000news/stories/gc052.htm Part of it states:

"The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, by self-definition, does not fit within the bounds of the historic, apostolic tradition of Christian faith," delegates said.

While the Mormons identify themselves as Christian, they also "explicitly (profess) distinction and separateness from the ecumenical community," delegates said. Mormons are intentional about clarifying differences in doctrine, the delegates noted. "

I pulled the following from a BBC site which highlights some of the major points of difference. The differences are important since just about everything you and I believe are based upon these things. http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/mormon/features/christianity.shtml

• The Trinity
o Other Christians believe that God is a single entity consisting of 3 persons.
o Mormons believe that God the Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost are separate beings who together make up the Godhead.
•
• God
o Other Christians believe that God is a spiritual being who has existed for ever, and has never changed.
o Mormons believe that both God the Father and Jesus Christ were once mortal men who became gods.

o Other Christians believe that God has no body and is only spirit.
o Mormons believe that God has a physical body.

o Other Christians believe that there is only one God.
o Mormons believe that there are many gods in many universes.
o Mormons believe that human beings can eventually grow to become gods themselves.

• Jesus Christ
o Other Christians believe that Jesus Christ was conceived without sexual intercourse through the intervention of the Holy Ghost.
o Mormons believe that Jesus Christ is the physical son of God the Father.

• The Church
o Other Christians believe that the conventional Christian churches are the true representation of the historical tradition of Christianity.
o Mormons believe that their church is the 'restoration' of true Christianity.

• Scripture
o Other Christians believe that the scripture consists of the Bible.
o Mormons believe that the scripture consists of the Bible plus the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants