Try saying that to our founding fathers, of which many lost everything they owned just so that we could become a FREE country.
Posted on 04/19/2003 2:05:26 PM PDT by ASTM366
As I do each year, I post information to commemorate the attack by FBI agents in military vehicles on the Branch Davidians compound near Waco, Texas on April 19, 1993.
The Branch Davidians, a reclusive group of Christian believers, had been attacked 51 days earlier by over 100 heavily armed BATF agents, surrounded and subjected to psychological warfare techniques by government agents. On April 19th the feds sent in military vehicles to fill the building at the Branch Davidian compound with chemical agents to flush out the remaining occupants. What resulted was a fire that burned to death nearly all the occupants; INNOCENT men, women, children and infants. Some committed suicide by self inflicted gunshot.
To this day the federal government has never accepted responsibility for the events of 1993, nor have they apologized for their ugly and glaring display of unchecked power.
In a tragic and spectacular act of revenge, Timothy McVeigh and his associates carbombed the offices of the BATF and FBI in Oklahoma City on April 19, 1995.
Huh?
Where have you been?
Are you TOTALLY UNAWARES of the commitment Koresh made to DEATH in this Armageddon event?
It would seem so - simply reading your post.
When the fires were lit by the Davidians it was THEN that the blodd of the women and children were on thje HANDS of "David Death'.
Didn't you see the ABC special with Charlie Gibson the other night - and see the scene filmed just after the kids were brought together and they were singing a song?
THE CHILDREN SANG WHAT WOULD BEST BE DESCRIBED AS A DEATH SONG.
WHERE on God's green earth do you SUPPOSE they learned that?
Could it have been Koresh's "Happy Land" within the compound (when the kid's *weren't* getting their bottoms beaten bloody - yes BLOODY!)?
No, She doesn't...Janet (Nazi) Reno...She did it, "for the Children"...just followin' her orders...Shillary's.
I suppose that's a good way to put it.
WHERE, exactly, was this 'entry' made?
It *sure* wasn't the front door - or are you making stuff up now?
Well - he was going to sleep with the wrong man's 10 year old daughter (I *saw* the ABC special with Charlie Gibsonb the other night) at some point -
- maybe that's why Vernon Wayne "RAPIST" Howell was heavily into firarems ...
Can you really defend the actions of the BATF on that day with a straight face?
Would you have opened fire on a home and church building on a Sunday morning knowing damn well that it was occupied by unarmed women, children and infants (the gun-happy head cases)?
It's a local matter, Jim. There was no reason for the BATF to be involved.
Child abuse is a state matter.
Hey, you know very well that I think Howell was a cretin. He used people, he lied to them, he took advantage of, and raped, children.
Call the cops, not the FBI.
So you say...... I'm Beginning to Wonder about
you ........JIM........
.......THUNDER.........
So you think cops and Feds never act rashly, with malice, or make mistakes?????
You are in denial.
There are numerous instances of cops and feds and even military men, "well trained", who broke the law and/or who made horrible mistakes.
The government attacked American citizens at Waco and Ruby Ridge, the MOVE seige, etc. etc. etc. Heck, in Philadelphia, Mayor Goode authorized the police to drop bombs on a residential American neighborhood!
Government abuse happens.
Try saying that to our founding fathers, of which many lost everything they owned just so that we could become a FREE country.
"Free Mumia Abu-Jamal!"
The blood is on those pathetic excuses for men that took their women and children to death.
Besides, whats it matter to you? You a Davidian or prone to following cults?
1. the BATF brass decided to mount a demonstration raid to convince the Clinton administration they should not be merged with the FBI, and…
2. the Davidians were tipped off that the raid was coming so they set an ambush and opened fire on the agents.
The agents were firing in self-defense; it was the Davidians who placed the innocents in danger by virtue of their armed resistance.
Now I agree that the raid was a bad idea.
It makes no sense to raid an armed-to-the-teeth anti-government doomsday cult because all that does is confirm their crankery in their own minds.
But the field agents on the scene aren't the villains of the piece; that role is reserved for the Davidian loons.
How about some analysis on the fire?
James G. Quintiere earned a Ph.D. in Mechanical Engineering in 1970.And some of his work on a relevant topic:He has more than 25 years experience in fire research and its applications, is a professor in the Department of Fire Protection Engineering at the University of Maryland.
Professor Quintiere has conducted research in the study of fire growth in structures and on materials, has developed test methods for ignition and flames spread, studied smoke movement in full-scale and scale model systems, and has developed theoretical solutions and simulation models for fire behavior and material response to fire. He has more than 100 publications in the field, and is currently Chairman of the International Association for Fire Safety Science (the world organization for fire research and its applications).
In addition to his research, he has helped to analyze a number of fire disasters including the Dupont Plaza fire and the more recent Branch Davidian Fire near Waco, Texas.
Books by James G. Quintiere:
Principles of Fire Behavior
Fire Research Applied to the 1993 Fire in Waco, TexasFrom: http://www.iafss.org/newsletters/1996.htm#FireresearchappliedOn April 19, Waco, Texas was the site of one of the deadliest USA fires of 1993, a fire that ended a long siege by agents of the US government at the complex occupied by the Branch Davidian religious group. IAFSS Chair James Quintiere notes that "In the two years since, many theories about the fire have been proposed, some quite bizarre." Professor Quintiere was asked to be part of an investigation of the cause and origin of the fire, and his statement to the US Congress, summarizing his findings, was also published in the November/December issue of the National Fire Protection Association's NFPA Journal.
One of his recommendations was that when catastrophic fires of national interest occur, a national inquiry be conducted to determine the facts. "This should be conducted by a national objective body... To protect and preserve society better, we must learn from these disasters. Moreover, the findings must be based on technically sound principles. I recommend that there be a national investment in the development of fire science in order to ensure technically sound investigations and to advance the technology of fire safety."
While the Waco fire was highly unusual in its circumstances, the occurrence of a fire with potential implications for national policy and a great deal of attendant controversy is not unique to the Waco fire or even to the USA. For this reason, Professor Quintiere suggested that the IAFSS membership might be interested in his statement. For reasons of space, the statement has been compressed to focus on the logic of the analysis and the resulting findings. "The fire had completely leveled the compound, so that no significant remains were available to establish the development of this fire. However, this fire was probably one of the most extensively recorded fires in history ... [including] a forward-looking infrared (FLIR) video. ...
"The principal source of data to establish the inception of the fires and their locations is the FLIR video. [Later parts of the statement explain the use of FLIR video data to identify fire plumes and other hot gas areas, as well as rates of growth to flashover and energy release rates at flashover, which have implications for the fuels involved.] Based on the calibrated clock of the FLIR, the other video and photographic records could be correlated, and a comprehensive visual record of this fire could be established. >From this visual data, I was able to determine the point of origin of the fires, their growth rates, and estimates of the fire energy output rates at critical transition points in their development. ...
"It is concluded that these three fires, occurring nearly at one-minute intervals, were intentionally set from within the compound. Even if the tank battering had caused the spillage of fuel from lamps, a match would be needed to initiate the fire. An electrical spark is ruled out because the electric power was shut off in the compound. It is obvious that these three fires needed an ignition source deliberately placed in each of the three locations. Also, none of these three fires could have caused any of the others because their growth rates would not provide sufficient heating to cause such remote ignitions. Any external heat source that might have been used to start the fires would have clearly been visible on the infrared video. This was not seen. Although normal furnishings and interior construction characteristics would provide a means for fire propagation, the more-than-usually rapid spread of these fires, especially in the dining room and chapel areas, indicates that some form of accelerant was very likely used.
"Methylene chloride, used as a dispersal agent for CS tear gas, is flammable as a vapor at a concentration of 12 percent in air; however, it is not easily ignited as a liquid. In fact, it will put out a match on attempting to ignite the liquid. Although fire spread was relatively rapid in the compound, these rates are not indicative of the much more rapid propagation that would be associated with a flammable mixture in the air. Those rates would be in excess of two feet per second, and would be seen as a fireball moving through the atmosphere of the interior of the compound. No such characteristics were observed in this early fire growth.
"Recently, I conducted additional experiments to assess the role of methylene chloride as a wetting agent to available fuel types in the compound, such as wood and paper. Since methylene chloride is a liquid at normal temperatures, it could have been absorbed into the furnishings of the compound. From my experiments, I can conclude that the methylene chloride had no enhancement effect on the fire spread over room furnishings. Also, I can conclude from the flashpoint data (197°C or 387°F) of CS itself, that its deposition on furnishings should not have had a significant effect on fire propagation either. Hence, the tear gas had no bearing on the propagation of this fire. ...
"It is estimated that the occupants would have had sufficient warning of the fire to escape, for at least up to five minutes from its inception, and up to nearly 20 minutes in some more protected locations. This is dramatically indicated by one occupant, who jumped from the second floor 12 minutes after the start of the fire. Although smoke would have impaired visibility, exits were within 30 feet of most occupants, with additional openings made by the battering tanks.
"Carbon monoxide in the smoke would have been the primary threat to the occupants. However, preliminary autopsy reports made available to me indicated that only five of 31 victims with recorded carbon monoxide (CO) levels had lethal levels of CO. The remaining 26 victims with recorded CO data stopped breathing before lethal CO levels were attained. Hence, if these data are correct, at least 26 victims did not die due to the fire. The autopsy report goes on to indicate that, in at least 17 of the victims, death was attributed to gunshot wound."
.....THUNDER......
Plaintif's attorneys often claim wild and outrageous things. This, alone, by itself indictes nothing.
There *were* some tests performed AND the details were agreed prior to the test by plaintiff's attorneys - ARE YOU AFRAID to post *those* results?
(Yes, you are.)
Should *I* post those results (SINCE you won't)?
You don't seem to care about the rights of your fellow citizens--you only care about what their ideology is. Now, I happen not to agree with the philosophies of the people who died at Ruby Ridge, nor Waco, nor the MOVE seige. But I am sure as heck going to defend their rights not to be killed by their government without due process.
And if you had any brains, you'd do the same. Because YOU could be next. If you expect people to respect YOUR rights then start respecting the rights of others--even those people you consider "trash".
This basic principle is why Gerry Spence defended Randy Weaver--and won. Gerry Spence of course hated Randy Weaver's philosphy, but he knew that the government was WRONG to act like it did.
51 days of standoff is relevant for those whackjobs.
On the first point you are incorrect - Vernon Wayne Howell 'resisted' in a most forceful manner, without regard for the people 'in his care' (the 'stockpiling' and issuance to d*mn near every person over the age of 15 in that compound a weapon with live ammo is the sign of Saddam-class lunacy *plus* the stockpiling of explosives for *no* legitimate purpose in the same building which over a hundred people lived was eually Saddam-class *insane*)
On your second point you are incorrect - the lawlessness rested fully with Vernon Wayne Howell and the adults in that compound - the exercise of bad judgement on the part of the BATF in the planning of the raid, the exercising of the raid is another issue.
The cops shot first, when they drove the cattle trailer up to the front door and shot Koresh, and killed his daughter. Any and all shooting after that took place as a purely defensive measure by the Davidians. The Feds were the aggressors.
If you look at the video taken when the second assault took place, the one on which the JBT's got their asses handed to them, you will note that there is a line of vehicles with many feds behind them shooting at the Davidians as the assault and retreat took place. See any return fire towards them? No bullet holes in any of the vehicles, or puffs of dust from rounds into the ground around them.
If the Davidians were equipped with the firepower and the will to use it, as is alledged, those Feds behind those cars would have been in serious trouble from even a half-assed marksman.
It matters not who started the fire. The Feds created the environment for the tragedy. If the Feds weren't so hell-bent on proving their manhood, they could have placed a perimeter around the place, parked a guy in a lawn chair with a cell phone, and just waited them out. With even a minute amount of common sense, there never would have been a fire, or for that matter, a "seige" in the first place
Also pretty noxious stuff in its own right.
It would seem you protest to much. Guilty are you?
the fire was started by feds. DO you believe the feds reports?
I am aware that my government made a mistake in Waco.
I am aware that my government made a mistake in Waco.
Perhaps one day you'll think something the government doesn't like and they'll come after you, too. And they'll lay seige to your family and your friends and your house and your neighborhood and finally burn you to death.
Some people say that it would serve you right if no one came to your aid. But you are lucky there are those of us who speak out and fight against this kind of abuse, even for people like you.
How many weapons does it take to create an "arsenal"? I need to know so that I can get rid of a few so that I'm not over the limit.
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