[neutrino]

Thank you for the post. In a different thread, regarding the same incident, I asked some questions which you did not respond to. Perhaps you didn't notice them; therefore, for your greater convenience, I'll ask them again here.

I have a question...one asked in all seriousness. One of the offenses for which some were arrested was trespassing.

Let us suppose that I - on the wrong side of 40 by a large margin - take leave of my senses and go to a Kmart store that is open and doing business at 12:30 AM some Saturday. I walk in, look around, and don't find anything that I want. I then walk out.

Have I committed criminal trespass? Am I subject to arrest at this point?

Suppose that I notice Sonic, and decide to walk over to that establishment. I don't move my vehicle - in this scenario, it would still be in the Kmart parking lot. I purchase a food item and begin to consume it.

At this juncture, am I committing criminal trespass? Am I now subject to arrest?

I note that the Texas statute regarding criminal trespass makes no mention of the time. You may read it yourself HERE

Which begs the question - if I were to do any of the above listed acts at 2:00 PM on a Wednesday, would I not (per the standards of arrest apprarently followed by the Houston PD) be subject to arrest? Dare I go shopping...anywhere?

Thanks in advance for your insights.

Now, regarding your items in this thread:

You state in item #9 of this thread "That's an awful lot of people to be shopping at KMart at that hour. If they were all shopping at KMart and ordering at Sonic, why would the mangagement of KMart or Sonic have complained to the police? They must have been raking it in hand over fist. "

Quite possibly, they were coerced. Please note the thread of FR HERE

Also, it doesn't matter. If 424 of them weren't shopping, it doesn't make it legal (or morally just) to arrest the 425th one who was a legitimate customer.

You also mention in your item #9 "I always goes to KMart in the middle of the night for my bottled water. I just don't like the lack of selection at Circle K."

Clearly, the businesses involved believe that the level of business available at that hour justifies being open. One can only assume that someone does, in fact, purchase water or other goods at that hour. It may be that the businesses suffer from incompetent management - their Chapter 11 bankruptcy filing may be suggestive - but that doesn't matter either. They were open for business.

Lastly, you comment in your item #9 "That happened to me once. I was with my ten-year-old daughter driving around in the middle of the night. She wanted some ice-cream, so I passed all the Circle K's and 7-11's and decided to stop at Sonic, even though there were 425 people hanging out and partying in the parking lot. "

I am not aware of any law that prohibits such acts. You might wish to avoid San Antonio during Fiesta - a crowd exceeding 500,000 hangs out and parties along the river. Vendors even sell ice cream. Beer too.

[HiTech RedNeck]

I saw one site that alleged that plain clothes officers gave "innocence cards" to currently gathered K-Mart and Sonic customers just prior to the raid. Nothing said about this on the news media at all, however. And what about those who left the buildings just before the alleged cards were passed out? Or were not seen by the officers (K Mart is a big store)? The timing would have had to have been tight and brief, because too long a delay means the cardees would have had a chance to warn the congregated others away.

[Kevin Curry]

Also, it doesn't matter. If 424 of them weren't shopping, it doesn't make it legal (or morally just) to arrest the 425th one who was a legitimate customer.

Indeed. Or the 4,250th, 42,500th, 425,000th, 4,250,000th, or even the 42,500,000th. In fact, if there is the possibility that even one innocent person might be arrested out of the 250,000,000-odd souls in this country, the JBT police ought to be prohibited from arresting anyone. It is the only moral and principled postion to take.

I'm finally starting to see the impeccable logic of libertarianism. Lest one innocent soul suffer unlawful infringement of his unalienable rights by government, government and law enforcement must be eliminated. Free, free, free at last!

On the other hand, perhaps this was just a botched and poorly planned raid that for the most part properly targeted thugs and scofflaws whose behavior was impinging on the local business' right to make a profit and law-abiding citizens' right to shop. If so, perhaps the officials responsible should be and will be fired anyway and law-abiding citizens who were unjustly arrested will receive just compensation for their inconvenience and poor treatment. Hopefully the next raid will be much better planned and executed, and no innocent shopper will be inconvenienced. That would make sense to me.

In the final analysis, even in law enforcement the perfect should not be made the enemy of the good. The alternatives--anarchy, tribalism, or private police forces--are much worse than an occasional botched raid such as this.

[Dec31,1999]

I'll reply to your well-thought out post.

The police definitely over-reacted and handled the problem the wrong way. Nonetheless, do you think justice is served by making excuses for a large crowd using the parking lot as a convenient hang out to the detriment of a private property owner?

Let me ask you a question: If a crowd of 100 people, whatever age, "race", religion or culture decided to party within 300 feet of your home or business regularly several times a week, what would you do? Move, buy earplugs or stand your ground?