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Severe economic downturn could bring 1930s-style reform
Associated Press / Wall Street Journal

Posted on 07/24/2002 7:44:25 AM PDT by RCW2001

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To: LS
Well, recent studies---TWO of them by different economists---agree that HS probably took a good five percent off GNP.

What completely bass-ackward revisionist poppycock.

Trade only amounted to 6% of GNP to begin with, and it declined to 2% of GNP by 1932. Furthermore, since Smoot-Hawley only applied to 1/3 of imports, you can't even attribute the 4% drop to the tariff. Rather it was the 31% decline in GNP and 25% unemployment rate that more drasticly reduced demand for imports.

And as far as Smoot-Hawley "causing" the Depression, the stock market crashed in 1929, the tariffs weren't enacted until 1930.

Take your convoluted, revisionist and discredited economic theories and peddle them elsewhere.

21 posted on 07/24/2002 11:25:19 AM PDT by Willie Green
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To: ex-snook
"The 'long run' ends on election day."

Sage comment.

22 posted on 07/24/2002 11:27:45 AM PDT by Tauzero
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To: Willie Green
No, sir, you are the one without a clue. First, Doug Irwin, who has studied the HS tariff extensively, shows that it affected EVERYTING, across the board, in one way or another. Further, the impact of HS had to be DEFLATED (thanks Fed REserve Board for the deflation of the 1930s) and when you did that you got a dollar amount equivalent to five percent of GNP---not five percent of "trade" Just like today, the level of trade and the number of industries AFFECTED by trade are as different as night and day.

Now as to the "timing," glad you asked. Jude Wanniski has done an extensive study on the market in the months before HS was passed. With every advance of HS through a congressional committee vote, the market went DOWN. But the key vote came on Wed. just before "Black Thursday." This made HS a surety.

The more we find out about this idiotic bill, the more the evidence points to it as being the second greatest factor in the Great Depression, behind the antics of the Federal Reserve board. Put THAT in your pipe and smoke it.

23 posted on 07/24/2002 12:28:52 PM PDT by LS
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To: ex-snook
No, check out Jude Wanniski's history of HS: the FINAL vote was in June 1930, but the KEY COMMITTEE VOTE, which ensured it was a "done deal" was the day before the market crashed. Moreover, every single advance of HS through the congressional committees was tied to market downturns as the market braced for the horrific impact of that bill.

Both Doug Irwin and Mario Crucini, in separate studies, have shown that when you factor in DEflation, HS probably "hit" this country for 5% of GNP!!! This is an incredible shock, and doesn't factor in the "trade wars" and reciprocity barriers that were effected afterwards. I suspect the actual "death toll" for HS is probably higher.

Want to put that in perspective? Most economic historians find that the railroads only ADDED about 5-10% to the GNP in the entire 19th century. So in a couple of years, Hawley Smoot wiped out everything it took the railroads 80 years to add!!!

24 posted on 07/24/2002 12:32:43 PM PDT by LS
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To: Willie Green
You don't get it. Your "honest day's work" was pure WELFARE, stolen from those who actually DID earn a living, and the government programs made the soup kitchen lines longer and ensured they would never go away. You want YOUR welfare on the backs of working people. But it ain't happenin' bud. Go back to the Young Socialists of America.
25 posted on 07/24/2002 12:34:34 PM PDT by LS
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To: Willie Green
Keynsian theology did not pull us out of the depression. If big government program spending created wealth the Soviet Union would be a paradise. Those New Deal programs worsened the depression. By increasing taxes and squeezing the money supply Roosevelt killed economic recovery.
26 posted on 07/24/2002 12:46:33 PM PDT by ChiMark
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To: LS
Jude Wanniski has done an extensive study on the market in the months before

Who gives a rat's patoot about any "study" that Wanniski does?

He's not an economist.
His education is Political Science and Journalism: the perfect combo for propaganda, not a serious "study" of economics.

27 posted on 07/24/2002 12:54:14 PM PDT by Willie Green
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To: ChiMark
If big government program spending created wealth the Soviet Union would be a paradise.

Invalid comparison.

The old Soviet Union was void of any market forces whatsoever.
It was strictly a centrally planned "command economy" with all resources owned, controlled and operated by the state.
In contrast, when markets falter due to the pencil-pushing, paper-shuffling excesses of Wall Street, there is nothing wrong with Government "priming the pump" of private industry by building infrastructure that benefits EVERYBODY for decades to come. And I do mean EVERYBODY, private businesses as well as the workers who become their employees. And taxpayers receive tangible and lasting infrastructure for their investment.

28 posted on 07/24/2002 1:12:09 PM PDT by Willie Green
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To: RCW2001
I thought the reforms created the depression after the stock market crashed and then began to rebound?
29 posted on 07/24/2002 1:24:09 PM PDT by <1/1,000,000th%
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To: Willie Green
So, if you don't have a degree in economics, you can't have a thought about economics, huh?

Guess that leaves out both Adam Smith (philosophy) and Karl Marx (sociology/philosophy). What's left of your idiot spectrum?

30 posted on 07/24/2002 3:14:16 PM PDT by LS
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To: LS
So, if you don't have a degree in economics, you can't have a thought about economics, huh?

No, just that Mr. Wanniski's "thoughts" are predictably biased and non-objective.
They shouldn't be confused with sound economic theory.

31 posted on 07/24/2002 3:19:34 PM PDT by Willie Green
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To: LS
Guess that leaves out both Adam Smith (philosophy) and Karl Marx (sociology/philosophy).

Adam Smith did quite well.
Yet since he predates the development of the modern science of economics, it's hardly a fair comparison.

Karl Marx on the other hand... yeah, I'd say he's just as disreputable as Wanniski.

32 posted on 07/24/2002 3:24:37 PM PDT by Willie Green
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To: RCW2001
This is a more balanced article than the one to which I just responded in a call to action. I hope the link works, I don't want to waste the bandwith to copy.

William Flax Return Of The Gods Web Site

33 posted on 07/24/2002 3:31:59 PM PDT by Ohioan
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To: Zon
If we will step up and give the public right thinking leadership, they will respond, even as you suggest that they already are. It is well to remember that FDR was actually elected on a Conservative platform. He betrayed his own platform in what followed.

The first reaction of normal people to a real problem is to become more Conservative--to get back to the basics. But if there is no one out there willing to preach the truth to them, they will eventually be misled by the endless repetition of Socialist lies. That has always been the Left's approach--The Big Lie. We need to hit them first with the truth--and we need to persist.

The very worst thing which Conservatives can do at such times is go on the defensive--or start apologizing for our beliefs and system.

We need to make the land ring out with the righteous indignation of a free people sick of politicians gnawing at their vitals for personal advantage.

William Flax Return Of The Gods Web Site

34 posted on 07/24/2002 3:39:13 PM PDT by Ohioan
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To: Willie Green
Glad you agree with me that a degree in economics is no requirement to sound economic thinking. Therefore, Wanniski is quite sound. As for you . . .
35 posted on 07/24/2002 6:19:23 PM PDT by LS
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To: Willie Green
I gave you "sound economic theory" by two current well-respected economists, Doug Irwin and Mario Crucini, who independently came to the conclusion that Hawley Smoot was a disaster, and that previous economists (who likewise called it a disaster) weren't even close in measuring its impact due to DEFLATION, another fine result of FDR's great legacy.
36 posted on 07/24/2002 6:20:49 PM PDT by LS
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To: LS
I gave you "sound economic theory" by two current well-respected economists, Doug Irwin and Mario Crucini, who

Those aren't "well-respected economists".
Those two are young mush-headed academic wannabes who crank out worthless research papers on global Klintonomics to satisfy the liberal agenda that plagues our universities. "Publish or perish" and your "study" better come up with the correct PC conclusions.
Same crapola junk science that brings us the Kyoto Protocol to solve "global warming".

37 posted on 07/24/2002 6:58:26 PM PDT by Willie Green
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To: Willie Green
You don't know either of these men, nor their work. You are one of the most clueless posters on the board. Now either drum up real evidence, or kindly shut up. The facts are not on your side, so the latter would be advisable.
38 posted on 07/25/2002 4:48:36 AM PDT by LS
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Comment #39 Removed by Moderator

To: LS
You don't know either of these men, nor their work. You are one of the most clueless posters on the board. Now either drum up real evidence, or kindly shut up. The facts are not on your side, so the latter would be advisable.

Here are the facts:

Trade only amounted to 6% of GNP to begin with, and it declined to 2% of GNP by 1932. Furthermore, since Smoot-Hawley only applied to 1/3 of imports, you can't even attribute the 4% drop to the tariff. Rather it was the 31% decline in GNP and 25% unemployment rate that more drasticly reduced demand for imports.

A Google search reveals sufficient background information on the two relatively unknown wannabes you cite. However, the mere fact that you reference them in support of your absurd contentions is enough to condemn their credibility. They eschew valid academic methodology by assuming the politically correct result they desire is "true", then manipulating historical data and facts to support their incompetent assertions.

Senator John Heinz III, who died tragically in a plane crash in 1991, had developed a national reputation for his expertise in international commerce. During his years of serving in Congress, Senator Heinz III was appointed to the Chairmanship of the Subcommittee on International Finance and Monetary Policies. He had this to say about the Smoot-Hawley myth in 1985:

“It gravely concerns me that every time someone in this administration or the Congress gives a speech about a more aggressive trade policy, or the need to confront our trading partners with their subsidies, barriers to imports and other unfair practices, others in Congress immediately react with speeches on the return of the Smoot-Hawley Tariff Act of 1930, and the dark days of blatant protectionism and depression...It seems that for many of us that Smoot-Hawley has become a code word for protectionism and, in turn, a code word for the depression. Yet, when one recalls that Smoot-Hawley was not enacted until more than 8 months after the October, 1929 collapse, it is hard to conceive how it could have led to the Great Depression...the changes supposedly wrought by this single bill in 1930 appear fantastic.”

BTW, the late Senator Heinz entered Harvard Business School in 1961, and the following year worked for the summer with the Union Bank of Switzerland in Geneva. He received his Master's degree in Business Administration from Harvard in 1963. That's sufficient academic background for competent understanding of economics to be authoritive on the subject, unlike your voodoo propagandist Wanniski.

40 posted on 07/25/2002 8:32:22 AM PDT by Willie Green
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