Sex, torture and erotic electrification in America's 'gay' churches

WorldNetDaily.com ^ | Thursday, July 18, 2002 | By Stephen Bennett

[JohnHuang2]

No doubt this is a sin-sick world we live in, yet it still amazes me how wicked and debased America continues to become. You better brace yourselves for this one folks.

In my recent WND commentary, "Was Jesus 'gay?'," I addressed the "gay friendly" theology of the Metropolitan Community Church – one of the largest growing networks of homosexual churches worldwide catering to the "gay, lesbian and transgendered communities." In 2003, the MCC's website claims it will have over 70,000 members spanning 17 countries.

The commentary exposed the twisted teachings of the MCC and its homosexual founder, the Reverend Troy R. Perry, an ex-Baptist minister who began the "gay church" in 1968. Many homosexual men and women who have left the church claimed MCC churches around the country were nothing more than "gay pick up joints" and "all the gay sex you want" ... all in the name of Christ.

While researching information on the MCC for my commentary, I found things I never intended to find. What I discovered is absolutely shocking and horrifying – and I caution you with what you are about to read. It is very disturbing.

The Metropolitan Community Church of San Diego welcomes you on their website with "Bringing people closer to God and to one another." It further goes on to say, "May you find the church informative and helpful and even a step that will lead you to a more personal relationship with Jesus Christ ... please come and take advantage of our fellowship opportunities."

"Bringing people together" and "fellowship opportunities" are gross understatements.

On Nov. 1, 1999, at 7:30 p.m., a sadomasochist workshop sponsored by GLO (Leathermen Only) was held at the church hall – "Fisting For Beginners." Several different sado-masochist groups use the church facilities monthly for their instructive workshops. According to their e-mail, they said:

It will be a wild demonstration-lecture and no actual fisting will be done on the premises, but a videotape will supply the missing visuals. Join us at the MCC Church Hall at 4333 30th Street, across the way from the Aztec Bowling Alley.

Fisting, for those of you who are not into sado-masochist perversion, is a dangerous, painful act practiced by many gays, lesbians and heterosexuals of inserting one's complete fist and part of the arm into the sex partner's vagina or anus. For many homosexuals, this is a pleasurable, erotic act. This is just the beginning.

On May 24, 2000, another sado-masochist group, Club X, held a workshop entitled "SM 101" at the church hall. According to their advertisement:

Travis has been presenting this excellent introduction to SM (Sado-Masochism) for several years now. It has proven very effective and well received at all of the "Human Sexuality" college classes he has presented it to as well as to all the police department orientations and sensitivity training sessions he has taught it at.

On Monday, June 5, 2000, the MCC of San Diego allowed GLO to provide what appeared to be another evening "fellowship opportunity" in the church hall for the sex-crazed men and women. The monthly e-mail advertisement read:

Bring your Leather, or toys, cleaned & ready to sell, trade, swap, or give to that someone special. This will be happening inside the meeting hall, the MCC has asked us NOT TO speak too loudly, or display or show off things out in the patio area, or anywhere in public view. ANYONE breaking the rules will be asked to leave, period. Please remember that there are other events that happen at MCC while we are there, & that this is a church.

Did you get the last comment – "that this is a church?" Yeah, right.

July 2000's meeting at the MCC of San Diego reminisced about the "good old days." The advertisement read:

These discussions are designed to restart the traditional cycle that used to exist in the Good Old Days, when Daddies with great experience would teach sexual/sensual/relationship tips to others, as they themselves were taught. We lost nearly a whole generation of gay men that should be here now as role-models, and the surviving older men were scattered in disarray. The preceding "Ask Daddy Anything" discussion was a smashing success, because it succeeded in bringing many good, wise folks back to public admiration and visibility. That same philosophy will continue in all upcoming discussions.

Each event will build upon the previous ones, and will include plenty of opportunities for feedback and discussion from wise and experienced Tops and Bottoms. If you have always desired to have sensual, powerful and meaningful relationships with others (from a Top or Bottom viewpoint), you should not miss any part of this series.

Monday, July 3, 2000, in the church hall was a workshop on "watersports." Watersports, for those of you who don't know, is the perverted act some homosexuals practice by urinating on one another, among other things, and getting their thrills.

In September, it seems the "gay" church got a double dose of "fun": a "bondage" workshop and "piercing" for pleasure workshop was advertised.

'Tis the season to be jolly ... On Wednesday night, Dec. 27, 2000, right after many celebrated the birth of Jesus Christ, the MCC of San Diego allowed yet another workshop, keeping in spirit with all the tinsel and "lights" of the season, appropriately titled "Erotic Electricity." Presented by a man called "Volta," the e-mail advertisement read:

"Volta is a highly skilled practitioner of this form of play and he will be covering all the bases in his presentation. Safety, necessary hardware, basic techniques, and some of the more advanced techniques will also be covered. In addition, Volta is planning on setting up a "hot seat" for those in the audience daring enough to try it out on themselves! This promises to be highly informative and entertaining so come on down Wednesday night to our workshop."

On Wednesday, April 24, 2002, a friend of mine actually attended this workshop at the MCC of San Diego. This person is still recovering from the trauma of the scenes they witnessed. The advertisement read:

This month, Jeff, our fearless leader will be presenting a workshop entitled: 'Single tail whip and sensuous whip play.' Jeff is a well known accomplished artist with the single tail and is lining up some willing assistants for the workshop. Come and learn techniques or just melt away to the sound of the whip, grins ... Various techniques for throwing and playing with whips and how best to position your play partner.

At the event in the MCC church's Fulton Hall, "Jeff" spent the first hour discussing the differences between single tail and other types of whips, including Indiana Jones-style bullwhips and how to identify a whip's maker by its workmanship. He passed several whips around for the audience to examine and discussed how to clean the tip in case skin was broken.

During the second hour, many people were "consensually" and brutally whipped, including one woman who actually stripped to her bra and was whipped from front and behind. After finishing whipping each willing subject, Jeff proudly examined and displayed his handiwork: the welts.

If the MCC Church of San Diego is not hard-core enough for you, how about the Metropolitan Community Church in the Valley of North Hollywood?

On April 24, 2002, a workshop at the church was advertised entitled "Branding by Cauterization." Cauterization is the burning and searing of the flesh with a hot iron. The burns are so severe, the wounds don't even have time to bleed.

May 22nd featured "Master & Slavery as a Lifestyle" and on June 26th "Hot Wax" – sexual gratification from dripping burning candle wax onto your partner.

The group that uses the MCC in the Valley of North Hollywood, Avatar-L.A. is currently advertising their upcoming events (please forgive me for the language – this is their copy, not mine):

Aug. 3, 2002 – Clips, Clamps & Clothespins / Tit, Cock & Ball Torture (According to their promo – 'Besides hanging up clothes to dry, this demo will show how clothespins, various clips and clamps can be used safely to enduce the most exquisite pain and suffering.')

Sept. 7, 2002 – Erotic Shaving / Spanking

Oct. 5, 2002 – Fisting 101 (seems to be a popular workshop)

Nov. 2, 2002 – Erotic Electricity 101

Nov. 15, 2002 – Erotic Electricity 201 (Erotic Electricity 101 is a prerequisite to this class)

Friends, these sick and perverted "workshops" are not only going on in the Metropolitan Community Churches in California, but others around the country as well. Much of this chilling information is readily available right on the Internet.

Perversion and wickedness are abounding in America and my friends, it is high time we repented of our indifference and complacency. From Hollywood, the media, the government, the public schools … right into our churches, we are now seeing the rotten fruit and stench of the sin of homosexuality in our land. The "gay" agenda has been so successful thus far for one reason: we've let it.

Never forget, we need to always love the sinner, yet we can hate the sin.

America: It's high time we've finally said, "Enough is enough."

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Editor's note: The July issue of WND's popular monthly print magazine, Whistleblower, is a groundbreaking look at the issue of homosexuality in America. Subscribe to Whistleblower at WND's online store, ShopNetDaily.

---

Stephen Bennett is a Christian recording artist and commentator who is featured nationally on radio, television and print. He is emerging as one of the nation's key speakers on "coming out" of homosexuality. For further information, visit Stephen Bennett's website.

[JohnHuang2]

Thursday, July 18, 2002

Quote of the Day posted by Travis McGee

[WyldKard]

Okay, a few things come to mind:

Were there any kids at any of these workshops? If not, then I really don't have any problem with what consenting adults want to do with each other, no matter how icky I may personally find a lot of it. (Fisting? Ick!!).

I don't think a church is a terribly proper place for this sort of thing, but if the membership of this church doesn't mind, then so be it. Those that don't like it should *certainly* go elsewhere. It didn't seem to me like the Church itself was sponsering this stuff, just allowing their space to be used.

I don't seem to remember the Bible complaining about dripping wax on ones partner, or flogging them, and don't really understand what business it is of the authors to crab about this sort of thing. It sounds more like his problem is with anything that isn't missionary style sex. Like I said, if there were kids that were being made to go to these things, or if they were doing this stuff WAY OUT i the public, I could totally understand and support the outrage.

Otherwise, to me, this guy comes off as a Socialist Theocrat that wants to pass more laws telling us what we can and can not do in the privacy of our own bedrooms. What's next, a branch of the Ministry of Peace...er...Homeland Security, that busts down doors if you're reported giving the missus a little spanking, or getting a little head?

[RightWinger]

I guess this shows why homosexuality is perverted sexual behavior and why we don't want our schools teaching our children that it's perfectly acceptable.

[F16Fighter]

Congratulations. Yours is one of the most idiotic posts I have ever seen at FR.

You may want to check in with the duty nurse soon for your medication.

[mhking]

I don't seem to remember the Bible complaining about dripping wax on ones partner, or flogging them, and don't really understand what business it is of the authors to crab about this sort of thing.

I suppose the section on Sodom and Gomorrah was torn out of your Bible, yes?

While these "consenting adults" certainly have the right to engage in whatever debauchery they want to (as long as they aren't doing in anyone else while they do it -- ewwww!), to do it in any sort of "church" really does not sit right with me.

WyldKard, how would you feel if goats were being sacrificed for some bizarre "ritual sacrifice" of pre-teen virgins tied to some form of Satanic worship in the rectory of your friendly, neighborhood Catholic church? Unless you have the emotional output of a rock, it probably wouldn't sit right with you. This is nothing different.

This sounds like a group of folks who are using the term "church" in order to qualify for tax exempt status for their form of filth. It's a defilement of what most hold sacred, and should be stopped.

[WyldKard]

Congratulations. Yours is one of the most idiotic posts I have ever seen at FR.

Hmmm...I tell you what, instead of resorting to character assassination and personal attacks, maybe you could do us all a favor, and explain WHY it's an idiotic post? That is why this is called a "debate" forum. If you need a definition of the word, I would be happy to supply you with it.

Oh, I forgot, it's much easier to do a pithy, one-liner "drive by posting" against people who dare to think even slightly different from you. You must have learned how to "debate" from the folks over at Democratic Underground...

[F16Fighter]

Congratulations on the second most idiotic post I have ever seen at FR...

Tell the duty nurse to double up on your med.

[WyldKard]

I suppose the section on Sodom and Gomorrah was torn out of your Bible, yes?

The Bible says the people of Sodom and Gomorrah were dripping hot wax on each other, flogging each other, and zapping each other with electricity? Wow! I MUST have missed that part. Please point it out, because *that* CERTAINLY must have been ripped out of any copy of the Bible *I* have ever seen. It sounds way better than any of the erotica in the Song of Solomon! :)

While these "consenting adults" certainly have the right to engage in whatever debauchery they want to (as long as they aren't doing in anyone else while they do it -- ewwww!), to do it in any sort of "church" really does not sit right with me.

It doesn't sit right with me, and I stated as much previously. Unfortunately, a Church has a right to do what it wants, and the only people who can tell it otherwise are the people who make up the Church. If you can't get the Church you attend to stop supporting stuff (either through direct sponsership, or by letting their facilities be used) you don't like, then you have to vote with your feet, and find a new place to go...

WyldKard, how would you feel if goats were being sacrificed for some bizarre "ritual sacrifice" of pre-teen virgins tied to some form of Satanic worship in the rectory of your friendly, neighborhood Catholic church? Unless you have the emotional output of a rock, it probably wouldn't sit right with you. This is nothing different.

Your statement is a little confusing. Are they ONLY sacrificing goats, or are they sacrificing both goats and children? First off, in BOTH possible examples, this is a direct church activity that is obviously being sponsered by said church. In his article, the author never says if the MCC directly sponsered this stuff, or merely let the groups use their space. Trust me, you MUST know churchs allow groups not affiliated with them to use their space. My monthly Unreal Tournament LAN party group meets at the local Methodist church, for instance, but we never get anything more than the use of the space.

If all they are doing is sacrificing goats, then I would be highly disturbed, and would want people to KNOW it's going on so they could act as they feel appropraite, but if all they are doing is killing animals, I don't think any real legal action should be brought against them. The people of the Church need to vote with their feet.

If they are killing children....well DUH!!! Of course one would want it shut down immediately, and the sickos involved brought to justice. You can't even begin to compare killing children to a couple of consenting adults spanking each other, for crying out loud.

This sounds like a group of folks who are using the term "church" in order to qualify for tax exempt status for their form of filth. It's a defilement of what most hold sacred, and should be stopped.

Once again, I'd like to know: Does the Church activly sponser this, or just let the people use their space? If it was the former, I would be more inclined to agree with you. Either way you are more than welcome to protest what they do (And God knows, yes, people abuse religion for tax reasons all the time. Just look at those nutcase Scientologists!), but right now, I don't see anything legally wrong with these people do, no matter how I personally feel about some of this sick stuff they are doing. The sad part about the Constitution, and Constitutional freedoms is you have to take the good with the bad. You have to take the hate speech spewed by the Neo-Nazi on the corner along with the religious gospel being preached on that same street corner. (Although the Liberals seem to be quickly finding ways to ban BOTH forms of free speech...) I think these quotes sum it up best:

The only freedom which counts is the freedom to do what some other people think to be wrong. There is no point in demanding freedom to do that which all will applaud. All the so-called liberties or rights are things which have to be asserted against others who claim that if such things are to be allowed their own rights are infringed or their own liberties threatened. This is always true, even when we speak of the freedom to worship, of the right of free speech or association, or of public assembly. If we are to allow freedoms at all there will constantly be complaints that either the liberty itself or the way in which it is exercised is being abused, and, if it is a genuine freedom, these complaints will often be justified. There is no way of having a free society in which there is not abuse. Abuse is the very hallmark of liberty.

-- Lord Hailsham

[WyldKard]

Mmmhmm..yes...whatever.

Run along, little boy, us adults are trying to have an actual debate here. If you can't be bothered to try and formulate an effective argument past "Wah! You're a doo doo head!" then please don't bother. Thanks!

[SkyPilot]

Oh, I forgot, it's much easier to do a pithy, one-liner "drive by posting" against people who dare to think even slightly different from you.

Here is mine to you and your twisted sense of morality, but I didn't write it.

"Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him.
Proverbs 26:4"

[Jorge]

I don't seem to remember the Bible complaining about dripping wax on ones partner, or flogging them, and don't really understand what business it is of the authors to crab about this sort of thing.

Jesus made a whip and drove the money changers out of the Temple in anger, you really think He'd be OK with the sort of sick sexual workshops we see above, in the church?

[WyldKard]

Here is mine to you and your twisted sense of morality, but I didn't write it.

Okay, well now I'm geniunely curious. What about my morality do you find "twisted"? I seem to have said thus far that I'm not terribly comfortable with these sorts of things going on at a church, but that it's up to the members of the Church to vote with their feet and voices about this sort of thing. You believe it's morally twisted for members of a Church to have a say in what goes on AT their church?

I also said that I find a lot of this stuff personally a turn-off, but that consenting adults have a right to do whatever they want, as long as there weren't any kids being involved in these workshops. You find the thought of consenting adults spanking each other in the privacy of their own bedrooms, or a gathering spot that is adults only to be "morally twisted"? Boy, I hope you've never had sex other than in the missionary position then.

So what is your problem with me, exactly? Was it because I didn't suggest that God immediately strike these people dead?

[WyldKard]

Jesus made a whip and drove the money changers out of the Temple in anger, you really think He'd be OK with the sort of sick sexual workshops we see above, in the church?

I don't think he'd be terribly happy with Bingo in the church either, to be honest. Or the fact that a group I belong to plays Unreal Tournament in one of the classrooms, on the third Saturday of every week. Yet, the Church is allowing these things. If you don't support it, then tell your Church you don't support it. If you can't get them to listen, then attend another Church. I do see where you are coming from, however. The impression I get from the article, however, is that the author of the piece has problems with any of these acts happening ANYWHERE for ANY REASON (like when he makes unrelated toss off lines like "Much of this information is available on the Internet!"). I have a feeling he'd be pissed off if these workshops were being held in a secular space, or in the privacy of peoples homes. If that's not the case, and his only TRUE beef is because its in a church, then I have less of a problem with the article.

It seems to me Churches are going to run themselves they way they are going to run themselves, and the only thing you can do is leave if you don't support what they do. After all, won't God eventually be the one to punish them if said Church displeases him?

[Alouette]

Many of the Roman pagan temples were also brothels, so I don't see any difference between the MCC and pagan Rome.

[DainBramage]

Tell us a little about your parents.

[WyldKard]

Many of the Roman pagan temples were also brothels, so I don't see any difference between the MCC and pagan Rome.

Well, that depends if any actual sexual acts (penetrative intercourse of some kind, in this case) are going on. It seems to me, according to the article that these people are at least being decent enough not to go that far. (I HOPE).

If you really want to get mad over something like this, get mad at whats happened here in MA with "FistGate", where they were teaching this stuff to MINORS in the classroom. Now THAT is wrong....

[The Bard]

...Never forget, we need to always love the sinner, yet we can hate the sin.

You know, that is actually NOT in the Bibile..... But there are several instructions by Jesus for us to JUDGE RIGHTOUSLY!

[WKB]

To: WyldKard
Congratulations. Yours is one of the most idiotic posts I have ever seen at FR.
You may want to check in with the duty nurse soon for your medication.

AMEN BROTHER

[peteram]

I don't seem to remember the Bible complaining about dripping wax on ones partner, or flogging them, and don't really understand what business it is of the authors to crab about this sort of thing.

While this may not be specifically addressed in the Bible, what the Christian church promotes is a respect for human life and its dignity. Many Christians believe that this type of conduct serves to debase and humiliate the human spirit.

Taking it another step, there is nothing more that satan would love than to debase and diminish the human spirit, through whatever means (homosexuality or others). For a person to allow themselves to experience this type of lifestyle would result in them being in bondage (both spriritually and literally) to this and to the people that promote it.

I believe this is what the author was trying to point out. As Christians, we are in a spiritual war with the percieved evils that promote this type of conduct. Of course, the bottom line is that God gives all of us free will to choose the life we lead. If that's your thing, then go ahead and do it. But as Christians, it's incumbent upon us to do what we can to discourage it and show these folks a better way.

[peteram]

Otherwise, to me, this guy comes off as a Socialist Theocrat that wants to pass more laws telling us what we can and can not

I think the main thing that the author was really upset about was the fact that this "church" was operating under the name of the Lord Jesus, and that this is major blasphemy.

Like you, I agree that if these people want to exert their free will and live like this, fine. But I draw the line at using the Lord's name to promote it.

[WyldKard]

First off Peter, I want to thank you for replying in a mature and adult manner, and not in the way your typical knee-jerk liberal at DU would.

I believe this is what the author was trying to point out. As Christians, we are in a spiritual war with the percieved evils that promote this type of conduct. Of course, the bottom line is that God gives all of us free will to choose the life we lead. If that's your thing, then go ahead and do it. But as Christians, it's incumbent upon us to do what we can to discourage it and show these folks a better way.

Well, I suppose thats the rub. While I think fisting and watersports are gross beyond measure, I don't exactly consider them "evil" per se...I guess the part of the article that disturbed me was what I felt to be the authors call for all of these behaviors to be eradicated EVERYWHERE, not just from workshops in the church. That's what got me worried, because all of the sudden, we get these Constitution-violating socialist rules that try to dictate peoples behavior in their own bedroom. Perhaps I read too much into the article, on that particular facet...

If nothing else, your argument has swayed me much more over to the side of "this really should NOT be happening in a Church." And again, the only advice I can offer is that folks need to vote with their feet. If your church does it, get them to stop. If they won't, go elsewhere.

[WyldKard]

I think the main thing that the author was really upset about was the fact that this "church" was operating under the name of the Lord Jesus, and that this is major blasphemy.

Yeah, I agree with you here. However, it's this part of the article that made me pause:

Friends, these sick and perverted "workshops" are not only going on in the Metropolitan Community Churches in California, but others around the country as well. Much of this chilling information is readily available right on the Internet.

So it's on the Internet. So what? Is the author now suggesting a complete Bowdlerization of the Internet? I didn't see how the statement was related. But as I mentioned before, maybe I just read too much into it and the paragraph that comes after it as a statement of: "We must not only eradicate educational Workshops from a Church, but must eradicate them everywhere we find them, no matter how private or secular the venue" And THAT is not exactly something I can get behind, as a Constitutionalist.

Like you, I agree that if these people want to exert their free will and live like this, fine. But I draw the line at using the Lord's name to promote it.

Yes, you do have a point. Okay, I'm sold. These folks shouldn't be letting them use their church for this sort of thing. However, taken to extremes, doesn't this mean that all things not immediately relating to Christ shouldn't be in the Church? (Bingo Night, etc etc?)

[gunnedah]

You certainly are entitled to your opinion.But this is the very reason the homosexual movement is taking over this country.When AIDs wrecks havoc on America the way it does Africa maybe you will change your tune.America has turned a corner from which she will never recover I am affraid.We are a sick nation and no longer have a conscience or moral values.

[WyldKard]

You certainly are entitled to your opinion.But this is the very reason the homosexual movement is taking over this country.When AIDs wrecks havoc on America the way it does Africa maybe you will change your tune.America has turned a corner from which she will never recover I am affraid.We are a sick nation and no longer have a conscience or moral values.

I think Africa being a bunch of dirt poor barbarians who can't pull their s*** together long enough to get appropriate education and health facilities have a lot more to do with it than anything else. Same goes for the Chinese. If anything, I expect the level of AIDS to remain fairly steady in the US, while it explodes in the Third World countries (and places that are RUN like them, ie China.)

As for America being a sick country that has lost it's way...it would certainly be easy to make that argument. However, I think the most damage was done by people like FDR, LBJ and Nixon, who essentially showed all the politicians how to destroy the Constitution and be hailed as a hero for doing it, much more than any so-called "homosexual agenda".

[AppyPappy]

You are missing the point. I don't recall mainstream churches having this kind of activity. Beating people, even with their permission, is not a Christian activity. This is clearly a front, not a church.

[PeterPrinciple]

"that try to dictate peoples behavior in their own bedroom"

I don't know how you get to the point of "dictating behaviour". I personally don't mind being held to high standards and holding others to high standards..but this is not dictating.

You have a lot of the baggage from the "if it feels good do it crowd."

[freebilly]

It will be a wild demonstration-lecture and no actual fisting will be done on the premises, but a videotape will supply the missing visuals. Join us at the MCC Church Hall at 4333 30th Street, across the way from the Aztec Bowling Alley.

That would be Boweling Alley

[arm958]

I can't figure out whether you actually believe the tripe you have posted or if you are so bored and friendless that posting ammoral, inflammatory opinions to bait people is your idea of fun. You're a loser either way.

[freebilly]

I don't seem to remember the Bible complaining about dripping wax on ones partner, or flogging them, and don't really understand what business it is of the authors to crab about this sort of thing. It sounds more like his problem is with anything that isn't missionary style sex.

The Bible does tell us as Christians that we are not to associate with those who engage in "unnatural lusts."

[MortMan]

In one sense, we agree. What the debauched do amongst themselves is not at issue. What is at issue, however, is the deviants' coopting the name of religion by soiling a church with their activities.

It's another case of pushing the homosexual agenda. They may have a right to do what they do, but I also have a right to object. Trying to deceive by raising their banners under color of religion is especially gruesome, to me.

[Lazamataz]

I disagree in the strongest possible terms with your thesis. There is no room for sexual intercourse in any church, temple, or other place of worship -- unless you are a Satanist.

The body is of this world. The spirit is of the next world.

Enjoy your body and that of your commited life partner, but not in a place of worship, please.

[Lazamataz]

These folks shouldn't be letting them use their church for this sort of thing.

Okay, you came around. Good for you.

However, taken to extremes, doesn't this mean that all things not immediately relating to Christ shouldn't be in the Church? (Bingo Night, etc etc?)

Bingo probably could go. It's pretty much gambling.

[Miss Lemon]

Your 100% right, Pappy. This has nothing to do with glorifying Christ, but everything to do with glorifying a deviant lifestyle.

[WyldKard]

I disagree in the strongest possible terms with your thesis. There is no room for sexual intercourse in any church, temple, or other place of worship -- unless you are a Satanist.

I don't believe I ever said that Sexual Intercourse was okay in a Church. In fact, I think I actually said in one of my posts that actual sexual intercourse was NOT okay. I'm sorry if there was some confusion on that down the line...

[B-Chan]

"Cathedral of Hope" -- Dallas' own GayChurch-- is about to celebrate its 32nd anniversary ("Acclaimed Dragapella Beauty Shop Quartet to Appear at CoH 32nd Anniversary Gala"). Faaaaaabulous! They also have an active "Gay & Lesbian Youth Ministry". Some reporter ought to check that out...

B-chan

[mhking]

The Bible says the people of Sodom and Gomorrah were dripping hot wax on each other, flogging each other, and zapping each other with electricity? Wow! I MUST have missed that part. Please point it out, because *that* CERTAINLY must have been ripped out of any copy of the Bible *I* have ever seen. It sounds way better than any of the erotica in the Song of Solomon! :)

Touche - but what I was implying is that the story of Sodom and Gomorrah indicated that "debauchery" was rampant. I took that to mean that activities such as this (of course, electricity wasn't present at that point, but I think you know what I mean).

It doesn't sit right with me, and I stated as much previously. Unfortunately, a Church has a right to do what it wants, and the only people who can tell it otherwise are the people who make up the Church. If you can't get the Church you attend to stop supporting stuff (either through direct sponsership, or by letting their facilities be used) you don't like, then you have to vote with your feet, and find a new place to go...

This is true, but is this truly a church given that point?

In his article, the author never says if the MCC directly sponsered this stuff, or merely let the groups use their space. Trust me, you MUST know churchs allow groups not affiliated with them to use their space. My monthly Unreal Tournament LAN party group meets at the local Methodist church, for instance, but we never get anything more than the use of the space.

Point well taken - but I'm sure that activities that run counter to the beliefs of the church would not be permitted. And as long as you don't camp and pick off the newbies, I'm sure the Unreal party works as well...[g]

If they are killing children....well DUH!!! Of course one would want it shut down immediately, and the sickos involved brought to justice. You can't even begin to compare killing children to a couple of consenting adults spanking each other, for crying out loud.

Funny you mention this - the House of Prayer case here in Atlanta just had a trial date set for September. This very question is coming into play with that case. (for those who don't know, a somewhat charismatic preacher has imposed his own form of child rearing and discipline - including flogging of errant children by church members during church services - on the church. The preacher also arranges marriages for members, marrying off girls as young as 14; he promotes an isolationist mindset to his members; the church actually borders being a cult -- the preacher and some members are going on trial on child abuse charges)

After some honest thought, I can't answer the question you raise regarding whether or not this is sanctioned. My initial (albeit knee-jerk) reaction is that the church is flat-foot wrong, though.

[WyldKard]

Well, first off, thanks for your well thought out and polite replies.

After some honest thought, I can't answer the question you raise regarding whether or not this is sanctioned. My initial (albeit knee-jerk) reaction is that the church is flat-foot wrong, though.

Well, after some honest thought of my own, I've decided that in the end, while Churchs are going to do whatever they want to do, you really should not be doing anything in said Church that runs counter to the beliefs of the members there. I mean, personally, I don't care what the hell these people want to do with each other in private, but I have to confess..I wasn't exactly comfortable with these workshops (which appear to be instructional only, and don't actually have people engaging in sexual intercourse) happening in a church, and I'm even less comfortable with the idea after this debate. These folks might as well be Unitarians if they are going to do this kind of thing in their church, I suppose...

[Shryke]

I actually agree with several of your points listed above. What I wantd to ask you, and others here, though, is this: does anyone find this Stephen Bennet's detailed, relentless reporting of homosexual conduct a tad......obsessive? This guy talks about more odd sex acts than Penthouse Forum. I am beginning to wonder if this guy is going to turn out like some corrupt televangelist, constantly condemning sins while privately indulging in them.

[dagoofyfoot]

Oh Lord have mercy, I'm afraid of what my God would do when this activity becomes acceptable. This is too evil for words. I'm shocked that this subject is even debated here. What on God's green earth is happening here?

[F16Fighter]

A primary symptom of those in the asylum is the belief that everyone else has a warped perspective.

[WKB]

A primary symptom of those in the asylum is the belief that everyone else has a warped perspective.

Redneck version
I'm alright! The whole world is screwd up!

[F16Fighter]

"Us adults are trying to have a debate here."

LOL -- And what a pathetic excuse for a "debate."

Tell ya what -- After you're done with your pretentiously assinine "debating" of the merits of gay-church sanctioned "fisting" and "bondage," perhaps you can go on defending more sophisticated and poignant issues like the "right" of gay churches to also preach the Gospel while lying in their own fecal matter.

[F16Fighter]

:-D

[WyldKard]

Tell ya what -- After you're done with your pretentiously assinine "debating" of the merits of gay-church sanctioned "fisting" and "bondage," perhaps you can go on defending more sophisticated and poignant issues like the "right" of gay churches to also preach the Gospel while lying in their own fecal matter.

Well, if you had actually bothered to read my posts, you'd seen I never actually said "Yay fisting". It was more like "If the church allows it, and no kids are at these workshops, and they aren't actually having sex, I'm not happy with the idea of it being at a church, but big deal."

Of course, the discussion is pretty much concluded. If nothing else, I learned who the good debaters are, the ones who can make good points without resorting to constant abuse and name calling, and which ones...well..can't really seem to control themselves.

Do let us all know when you've hit puberty, alright? :)

[F16Fighter]

"I'm not happy with the idea of it [perverted rites in the name of God] being at church, but big deal."

Simply incredulous...

Tell me something -- do you feel a nation's morality is in anyway tied to it's greatness? OR is it irrelevant??

[WyldKard]

"I'm not happy with the idea of it [perverted rites in the name of God] being at church, but big deal."

Oh for crying the hell out loud, now you're just making sh*t up, and putting words in my mouth. PLEASE show me in the article where these sex workshops are being done "in the name of God". You won't find it, because it isn't in there. The Church merely lent it's space out to a third pary, but it's not like this wacked-out crap is going on as part and parcle of it's regular religious services. Unless I misread the article, that is.(willing to make a concession I might have.) It's not like when I go to play Unreal Tournament at the space the Methodist church let us rent out every third Saturday that I'm gibbing people "in the name of Jesus Christ". That would be just plain silly.

Tell me something -- do you feel a nation's morality is in anyway tied to it's greatness? OR is it irrelevant??

Who's morality are we talking about? Just because someone likes kinky sex in the bedroom doesn't mean they aren't a moral, decent person in the most important matters. Just as someones professing to be a Christian doesn't instantly make them a just and moral person. I think the amount that Governments respect the individuals rights has a lot more to do with greatness than anything else.

So yes, a nation that can follow certain absolute morals, and respect the rights endowed by our Creator, is naturally going to do better than a group that doesn't...say, America vs. The Middle East. I just don't see dripping some candle wax on someone in the privacy of their own bedroom as tantamount to the destruction of the Republic. If I were you, I'd worry a little less about little things like that, and focus on the Big Picture: Like how the Federal Government has been stedily erroding away the Constitution since the days of FDR. Reverting to Socialism, that's what's killing this country more than anything....

[EdReform]

BTTT

[dadwags]

I understand that you seem to take the "Libertarian" position, that anyone can do anything to anyone, as long as it doesn't endanger or harm YOU , or, maybe harm a n0n-consenting adult, or child . Would that be accurate ?
However, many of those homosexual practices do damage to people and spread diseases . So, as far as that church is concerned, I'll stay away from it, and any known (to me) members, thank you .
I really think there could possibly be some public health issues involved .

[EdReform]

Also posted here

[WyldKard]

I understand that you seem to take the "Libertarian" position, that anyone can do anything to anyone, as long as it doesn't endanger or harm YOU , or, maybe harm a n0n-consenting adult, or child . Would that be accurate ?

Acurate to a point. I consider myself more a Constitutionalist, than a member of the LP (which has some good ideas, but also has some god-awful goofy ones.) If you must call me a "Libertarian", call me a small-l libertarian.

But there is no maybe about the harm against a non-consenting adult or child. If you are doing something against a non-consenting adult or child (minors can't consent, as far as I'm concerned.), then that harms society. Rape, murder, theft, etc etc. The usurpation of the inaliable rights of one person initiated by another individual (or group of individuals) is always wrong.

However, I fail to see how a person smoking a joint in the privacy of their own home, or having kinky sex in the privacy of their own home is really the business of any apparatus of Government. Now if said person gets stoned and drives a car, thats the only thing that should be illegal is driving while under the influence, not the actual act of getting stoned.

However, many of those homosexual practices do damage to people and spread diseases .

If gay people are having gay sex, and getting AIDS from it..they knew the risks..they should have to take personal responsibility for what they did to themselves. I mean, what are you going to do: pass more and more laws to protect gay people from themselves?

Sadly, everyone has the right to self-destruction. If I go and buy a bottle of Draino and drink it down and kill myself, thats my own stupid fault, and there shouldn't be a Government agency that goes around trying to prohibit Draino, or make people get a license for it, so that they can protect idiots who want to make a Draino Martini for themselves.

Now, as far as I can see, the blood supply is very well protected against AIDS at this point in time...maybe I'm wrong, but that's the general impression I'm under, so other than that, I fail to see how allowing gay people to have sex in the privacy of their own homes is really signalling the death of the Republic. And I don't think that it's just gay people who are into spanking each other, or dripping candle wax on each other, or zapping eachs others privates with some electricity...

So, as far as that church is concerned, I'll stay away from it, and any known (to me) members, thank you .

I strongly encourage you to do this, as is your right and responsibility.

I really think there could possibly be some public health issues involved

Okay..I'll bite. Like what? I could maybe see the gay sex angle involved, but people flogging each other in the bedroom, and dripping candle wax on each other in the bedroom? I mean, honestly.

Lets face facts, the moment we begin to ban certain private behaviors "for the good of Society" we start to flirt dangerously with Socialism. And before someone starts building a strawman, there is a HUGE difference between building a nuclear bomb in your basement, and kinky sex in your bedroom.

I mean, whats next? Will we have "Religious Police" going door to door, checking up on people? That idea is really popular over in Saudi Arabia. Or maybe next, we'll have a Government program that encourages service people with access to private homes to rat people out to the Government? (Oh wait...if TIPS passes, we'll have that anyhow...)

Truely, Socialists, and their desire to protect Society from itself is the monster destroying the Republic. The "politically correct movement" is the ultimate development of this brand of Socialism, but it's sad to see when Right-wingers fall prey to Socialist thought as well...