Posted on 03/17/2002 6:46:50 PM PST by Phil V.
|
Any squeamishness by the IDF in situations such as the one depicted in the story will cause them casualties. As an example, which was mentioned in the story, terrorists smuggle explosives for suicide bombers in ambulances.
There is a lot the IDF could do here, short of ethnic cleansing and/or genocide, which it is not permitted to do for domestic political reasons.
Yes, we did the same thing in Vietnam. In the end, the entire country turned against us, and we had no friends left among the civilian population. I can see the same thing happening here to the Israelis in Palestine.
The reason Arafat is in power is because the Israelis put him there. Let's not forget that. Perhaps it's time to remove him. The problem is, Israel and the IDF have so alienated the Palestinian people, a democratically-elected leader would likely be far worse.
Israel has had since 1948 to establish positive relations with their neighbors and to demonstrate the benefits of democracy in a region where tribalism reigns supreme. Instead, with our complicit assistance, the Israelis have emerged as the biggest, baddest tribe of them all.
Any hope we ever had for pluralism in the Middle East is dead at this point. We define peace based on how people will be divided rather than how they will be united, and that's the real tragedy.
Comments interspersed.
"There are numerous issues separating the Israelis and the Palestinians, but one thing they have in common is that the foot soldiers on each side are overzealous religious fanatics."
Israeli foot soldiers are conscripts from the great mass of the Israeli population, and most of the latter are secular. This statement is such a whopper that I flat out say it is propaganda and that it makes all the rest of your post suspicious. You have a lot of explaining to do here.
"The slash and burn tactics of the Israeli army are legendary throughout the world. Our own State Department has cited them for their many human rights abuses. These stories are tame in comparison with past stories of IDF overreaching."
Cite sources, please. Israels serve three years of active duty (and 90-day active tours while reserves), while Palestinian "foot soldiers" are short-term volunteers. There is a world of difference between the two. As an example, Mexican civilians loved U.S. Army regulars during the Mexican-American War, because they were well-behaved, and despised the short-term American volunteers who looted, raped, burned, pillaged, murdered, etc.
I know a considerable amount on this subject and your statement looks like propaganda.
The human rights abuses I've heard our State Department has cited Israel for concern settler activity - seizing Arab land - not occupation troop behavior. Prove my ignorance here.
"Yes, we did the same thing in Vietnam."
Not in urban areas, and rarely in rural ones. It was still too much in the latter, but as a proportion it really was tiny, eespecially compared to (a) the good things we did and (b) the civilian casualties & physical destruction we caused with indirect fire weapons - artillery, mortars & aircraft.
"In the end, the entire country turned against us, and we had no friends left among the civilian population."
BS. We lost for other reasons, specifically the corruption and weakness of the RVN regime, not because of our troops' behavior. Your statement here is flat out propaganda. That war was lost before we ever got in it and then we fought the wrong enemy - the VC instead of the RVN regime. Our whole effort in Vietnam merely postponed the inevitable and killed a lot of people, most of whom would have survived, albeit unhappily, had we stayed out.
"I can see the same thing happening here to the Israelis in Palestine."
You overlook details such as the Pacific Ocean and terrorism. The V.C. weren't killing American civilians in America.
"The reason Arafat is in power is because the Israelis put him there. Let's not forget that. Perhaps it's time to remove him."
Absolutely true. The Israelis did it to themselves. Consider, though, that democracies sometimes have to prove the absence of alternatives to a gruesome necessity by trying and failing at the alternatives, before their public develops the will to do the gruesome necessity. IMO putting Arafat as leader was Israel trying an alternative to ethnic cleansing and genocide.
"The problem is, Israel and the IDF have so alienated the Palestinian people, a democratically-elected leader would likely be far worse."
You ignore the 50+ years of Arab propaganda and hate taught to Palestinian school children. They've taught 5 year-olds to be suicide bombers for years. You can believe a lot of screwy things by ignoring evidence contrary to your opinions. I have a hot stock tip for you about Enron.
"Israel has had since 1948 to establish positive relations with their neighbors and to demonstrate the benefits of democracy in a region where tribalism reigns supreme."
No, Israel did not conquer and occupy all its neighbors in 1948.
"Instead, with our complicit assistance, the Israelis have emerged as the biggest, baddest tribe of them all."
They were that way in 1948 and 1956 without our help.
"Any hope we ever had for pluralism in the Middle East is dead at this point. We define peace based on how people will be divided rather than how they will be united, and that's the real tragedy."
Enron.
From CNN:
WASHINGTON (CNN) -- The U.S. State Department on Monday released its annual human rights report, criticizing Israel for its treatment of Palestinians during the last several months of violence in the Middle East.
The report singled out Israel more so than in recent years for its treatment of non-Jewish citizens. It said Israel's human rights record against Arabs had "worsened" in the past year, mostly because of clashes between the Israelis and Palestinians since October.
"Israel's overall human rights record in the occupied territories was poor" during the last few months of the year, it said.
"Israeli security forces committed numerous serious human rights abuses during the year" and "sometimes exceeded their rules of engagement, which provide that live fire is only to be used when the lives of soldiers, police, or civilians are in imminent danger."
There is an old common law axiom that goes: "wrong in one, wrong in all." So I won't bother to respond to rest of your post, which is full of inaccuracies and pro-Israeli spin.
Such as my outing of your silly claim that Israeli soldiers are religious fanatics.
(thank you)
It's funny how the blame-Israel first crowd is so blind to Israeli domestic politics - they just don't understand why the secular Israelis want to abandon aka return the "occupied territories", even in Jerusalem. The secular Israelis are hoping the settlers stay there and that the Palestinians won't let 'em back into Israel.
And massadvj really, really, didn't want to deal with my contention that the US was on the wrong side in the Vietnam War.
The leaders of the RSVN were the people who helped the Japanese genocide the Viche French colonists in 1944 and kissed the rings of the returning De Gaulist French in 1946.
Sure. The communists just wanted the best for Southeast Asia and the world. Everything was America's fault. We should haven't tried to stop communist expansion anywhere. The Soviet Union would have reformed all by itself.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.