Posted on 08/01/2017 4:56:49 AM PDT by Kaslin
Just try to find a gas-fired power plant in the east!
Ok there are a few but many are peakers because they can ramp up/down quickly.
Hubby is trying to find a job in a gas-turbine plant in East Tennessee, but there are a few to be found. Mainly coal and nuclear around here.
Why is coal not viable for producing electricity? It has been doing so for decades, especially east of the Mississippi. It is quite a bit cheaper than using gas turbines, even when using scrubbers to reduce the missions AND taking into account the larger labor force needed.
I thought Smitty Werbenjagermanjensen was Number 1.
Nope, not in our lifetime. Sorry.
Green cannot handle the of baseload required with electrical demand at nearly 1 terrawatt, it’s that simple. If you read the thread I linked you would understand.
The ignorant will disagree with you. Those who actually work within the grid and actually know something about it won’t.
I wonder how many in this conversation have heard of Allam cycle?? Ignorance doesn’t stop people from having a loud opinion!
An interesting article regarding coal-fired steam generator conversion to natural gas.
Power Engineering
De-Bunking the Myths of Coal-to-Gas Conversions
This was interesting to me:
“Scenario 2: If Natural Gas prices and Electricity prices are projected to increase for the long term: The unit can be converted back to coal. In most Coal-to-Gas Conversions, the coal equipment is retained in place and can easily be re-commissioned. It is possible a new source review permitting process can be triggered, revised environmental permits could be required and potentially additional Air Quality Control systems will need to be installed. Dual-firing or Co-firing can also be achieved easily and would allow for each unit to fire whichever fuel is more cost effective each day.”
[Coal is good!]
“Knowledge is Good”
Emil Faber
TY dynoman
emissions...
I don’t think scrubbers stop anyone from pursuing their religious objectives :-)
Coal boiler plants supply base-load power and do not load follow. Base-load is least expensive electricity. The German greens which demanded coal plants to attempt load following of wind and solar output, now have expensive plant damage to fix. Natural gas conversions possible to use less expensive fuel and avoid coal fired CO2 penalties.
Straight NG fired peaking turbine plants live just to load follow. This is the most expensive power called upon to add supply to the grid for stability. Perhaps less than 20 minutes required to ramp to full output from a cold start.
Natural gas combined cycle—a steam turbine employing waste heat from a gas turbine to gain more generation efficiency. About an hour to bring up to full power from overnight shutdown, and 3 hour from cold. Newer plants can turn down output by 40%, and do so without losing more than 2 or 3 percent off of peak efficiency.
I would think that the future for coal is in exporting it to countries that don't sit on land available for fracking. Exports seem to be ramping up.
Walker Dimmig speech transcript to Congressional House committee about Allam Cycle. Gist—go with natural gas first to gain market traction, then tackle coal use which presents slightly more technical demands.
http://docs.house.gov/meetings/SY/SY20/20170503/105930/HHRG-115-SY20-Wstate-DimmigW-20170503.pdf
http://www.nationalcoalcouncil.org/studies/2016/Sawyer-Minnesota-Power-Allam-Cycle-for-Coal.pdf
I saw that movie and two days later was in fraternity rush on the same campus (U of Oregon).
Pledged a Fraternity (I had known for two years I was going to be a member) and we celebrated our 75th Toga party that fall. Lots of fun.
Had two Frat Bros in the movie, making me two steps away from Kevin Bacon.
A few years later I had another association making me two steps away from Kevin Bacon a second time.
Yeah, that is the fantasy here on FR. And it is even partially true. But the reality is that natural gas simply has overwhelming advantages as a fuel...far cleaner, easier to transport, no coal ash to dispose of, and on and on.
I have no doubt that coal is marginally cheaper than natural gas TODAY. But that will not last.
And the excess is likely to continue and expand into the future.
"Chemical production plants requiring NG feed-stock are being built. NG liquids shipping is expanding to supply overseas markets. Electric generation plants burning NG are continuing to take share from coal fired plants. A matter of time only before NG prices reflect the market demand vs supply.
At which point, more wells will come on-line and supply will increase.
"The CO2 produced by Allam power cycle turbines will be valuable for additional oil recovery in existing oilfields, due to solvent scouring properties, and the pressure added to the partially depleted formation. A ton CO2 injected should allow 1.5bbl to 3bbl of additional oil production. The return on investment depends upon cost per ton CO2. The information on Allam cycle economics usually quotes $20 ton for CO2 sales.
I am well aware of the use of CO2 for oil recovery enhancement. Believe it or not, but my wife did research in that area, and has patents on aspects of it. But we have plenty of sources of CO2, including gas-fired generating plants that don't involve the degree of gas cleanup needed for coal.
Absolutely true. My position is not that coal usage is going to disappear....just very limited case that coal is not long-term competitive with natural gas for generation of electricity in the US
The reality is they are about equal. I was just trying to have you focus on that to back up your initial statement. I choose to refer to both as a necessary part of the “all of the above” approach that makes sense in differing locations. One thing we know for sure that the economics is nowhere close to going after ‘renewables’.
Perhaps your time window is too narrow.
"Here’s the reason, coal is the cheapest, so it’s the baseload, not gas."
And yet coal plants are being shuttered or converted to natural gas across the country. This is the fact that matters, not small daily or weekly fluctuations in gas price.
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