Trump And Melania Hold Hands In Sistine Chapel, Observe 'Last Judgement'

yahoo ^ | 5/24/2017 | jenna amatulli

[RummyChick]

President Donald Trump and First Lady Melania Trump are in Rome, Italy as their third stop in their first international trip as POTUS and FLOTUS.

After an early morning meeting with Pope Francis,

On Wednesday, the pair was photographed in St. Peter’s Basilica in Vatican City

[ELS]

Sorry about the double post.

[Jackie in California]

Just to clarify a few things about traditional Roman Catholic veiling: the head covering that looks like a doily is called a chapel cap. A triangle about the size of a bandanna is called a chapel veil. The long rectangular head covering is often referred to as a mantilla but is also appropriately called a chapel veil.

Prior to Vatican II women were required to wear a head covering to Mass or other visits to a Catholic church. My understanding is that was required by the old Code of Canon Law but not the current one, creating some ambiguity. Women who presently attend the Traditional Latin Mass (Pope Benedict XVI made the traditional Mass more available), usually cover their heads in church either with a chapel cap, chapel veil, silk scarf or hat. Some of the women who attend the Novus Ordo (post-Vatican II Masses) also cover their heads but not very many do.

Traditionally the rules for private audiences with the Pope were very strict, requiring head covering, black clothing (with certain exceptions), long skirts, and very modest dress for women. Apparently that has been relaxed somewhat since Vatican II but anyone concerned with observing traditional protocol would still do it. Our FLOTUS was perfect in her compliance with traditional protocol. It would not have been appropriate to cover her head at the hospital.

BTW, thank you, Mrs. Don-O, for the very clear concise explanations about particular and last judgments and purgatory. I admire your ability to state these beliefs so well.

[Mrs. Don-o]

The saved who are being purified can't do anything for themselves. It is not an active state. Those undergoing purification are aided by the prayers and sacrifices of the rest of the Body of Christ, united with the saving work of the Lord Jesus.

The Old Testament people of God believed that the sins of the dead could be atoned for by the living. 2 Maccabees 12:39-46 describes how Judas Maccabeus discovered that some of the men who had fallen in battle while fighting for their fellow Jews, were carrying amulets of the idols of Jamnia, which the law forbids the Jews to wear (v. 40).

Judas, reasoning that they had died as a punishment for sin, therefore “turned to prayer beseeching that the sin which had been committed might be wholly blotted out . . . He also took up a collection . . . and sent it to Jerusalem to provide for a sin offering. In doing this he acted very well and honorably . . . Therefore he made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin” (42-43, 46).

Although a minority of Christians do not accept Maccabees as Scripture, disputing its canonicity does not negate its historical value. It shows that pious Jews believed in praying and making atonement for the dead shortly before the time of Jesus and the apostles.

It's this Jewish belief that Jesus was addressing when he said "... he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire." (1 Corinthians 3:15) and "Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing." (Matthew 5:26).

He could not have meant Heaven, because he was speaking of a place of punishment. He can not have been speaking of Hell, because Hell is eternal: you never get out. He was speaking of a place or temporary state of being where you are released when you have "paid the last farthing."

The "Communion of Saints" means that we share spiritual goods with each other, both in this life and in the life to come. We pray for those who have passed on and pay these "last farthings" because we are the Body of Christ and He associates us in His saving work of love.

No one can fully atone of their own sins. It is Christ who gives this grace to us and through us, through our prayers for each other.

That's why Paul says, "First of all, then, I urge that petitions, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgiving be offered on behalf of all men" (1 Timothy 2:1)

[Bodleian_Girl]

What ability do you have to pay for your own sins or those of another?

That pretty much takes Christ out of your picture which means you are preaching another gospel.

[Mrs. Don-o]

"That pretty much takes Christ out of your picture which means you are preaching another gospel."

Intercessory prayer TO CHRIST by some members of the BODY OF CHRIST for other members of the BODY OF CHRIST--- takes Christ out of the picture?

Please think this through again.

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[Bodleian_Girl]

Here’s my point: YOU can’t save anyone, YOU have no salvational powers and for you to even believe that being burned in a fire is something that purifies you, instead of being saved by the work of Christ, is a heresy.

No offense to you, but sincerely believing the wrong thing will send you to Hell just as quick as believing nothing.

Jesus doesn’t need you to be burned in a fire to purify.
Jesus doesn’t need your works to save your soul.

Either the Bible is true, or it isn’t. And there isn’t anyone or anything doing any saving of souls except for Jesus Christ.

[Mrs. Don-o]

Do you think Christ founded a Church for no reason?

Or was He quite mistaken when He said this? In the Gospel of John:

John 14:12-14
Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am.

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[Bodleian_Girl]

You think you do the salvational work of Jesus Christ?

[Mrs. Don-o]

God has associated all believers in His saving Work, by incorporating them into the Body of Christ.

John 14:12
Amen, amen, I say to you, whoever believes in me will do the works that I do, and will do greater ones than these, because I am going to the Father.

What do you think he meant by that? Nothing?

Or this:

Romans 2:6-8
God will repay everyone according to his works: eternal life to those who seek glory, honor, and immortality through perseverance in good works, but wrath and fury to those who selfishly disobey the truth and obey wickedness.

(2:6 "Will repay everyone according to his works": Paul reproduces the Septuagint text of Ps 62:12 and Prv 24:12. To Paul, the Septuagint was simply "Scripture" --- to you, perhaps, not?)

If this seems to contrast with the places where Paul says, repeatedly "faith, not works" --- isn't the explanation that by "works of the Law" he meant all the observances of the Mosaic Law, that is, the 613 mitzvot? For he, and Jesus, clearly expect us to effectively participate in some kind of work other than the 613 mitzvot -- namely, in Jesus' own, all-effective work of salvation.

Then there's this:

1 Corinthians 3:9 "For we are God’s co-workers; you are God’s field, God’s building"

Co-workers for what? Let Paul give you a hint:

1 Corinthians 15:58
Therefore, my beloved brothers, be firm, steadfast, always fully devoted to the work of the Lord, knowing that in the Lord your labor is not in vain.

Their work, in the Lord, is not "in vain". In other words, it is not a superfluous token: it is efficacious.

Galatians 5:6
For in Christ Jesus, neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything [these are 'works of the law'], but only faith working through love.

Ah, that's it: "faith working through love." And mind-blowing as it is, that's the reason why God created us: He created us for these works:

Ephesians 2:10
For we are his handiwork, created in Christ Jesus for the good works that God has prepared in advance, that we should live in them.

This is efficacious for what? Paul says, for salvation:

Philippians 2:12
So then, my beloved, obedient as you have always been, not only when I am present but all the more now when I am absent, work out your salvation with fear and trembling.

Does this mean we are saving ourselves, picking ourselves up by our own bootstraps as it were? Nonsense! Of course not! This is efficacious *ONLY* because we are in Christ. It is all done by Christ.

Christ is so close to His Church, He actually identifies with it. When Saul of Tarsus was persecuting the church, Jesus confronted him with this question: "Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?" And when Saul asked, "Who are you, sir?" he received this answer: "I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting."

Jesus identified fully and personally with His persecuted church!

Surely Saul/Paul thought of this many times, for instance, in his magnificent teaching that the Church is the Body of Christ.

How grateful we should be that God has made us members of His Body, co-workers, co-carriers of the Cross (Mark 8:34) and associated every one of us in His saving Work.

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[Bodleian_Girl]

You blaspheme Jesus Christ by claiming that you offer any kind of salvational work to yourself, or anyone else.

Think about what you are doing by denigrating the finished work of Jesus Christ.

“But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.”

[Mrs. Don-o]

Do you think you are honoring God by distorting my words?

This kind of slander and namecalling stops dialogue dead.

[Bodleian_Girl]

You are telling me that you, a church, other people, have a hand in salvation.

I’m telling you that you are wrong and have bet your eternal soul on your own works.

By making the claims that you have some ability to earn what Jesus paid for by HIS work, that places you in the enemies of God camp.

I have no doubt you are only saying what someone has trained you to believe, because if you knew the real work of Christ you’d never try and make the claim that it’s your works that purchased it.

[Mrs. Don-o]

I am not telling you any such thing.

I would never bet my soul on my own works; nor is this the teaching of the Catholic Church.

You state your own misconception most vehemently, as if it were a fact. You would do better to ask questions, not make rash generalizations about other people’s beliefs.

[Bodleian_Girl]

Who told you that there was such an imaginary place as purgatory where sins were burned away in fire?

And you believed it was real.

[Mrs. Don-o]

Good day, Bodleian Girl! You evidently haven’t had time to ponder the Scriptures I cited 5 days ago, addressed to you personally on this very same thread at #63. That’s perfectly understandable, we all get so busy sometimes.

So I now invite you to look up these verses and tell us what you think they mean:

Matthew 5:25-26 -— a “prison” you can’t get out of until you’ve paid the last farthing. Is Jesus using an earthly analogy to describe a spiritual reality? Please explain what He’s talking about.

1 Corinthians 3:10-15 -— “He himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire.” (KJV) When you have time, please explain what this “fire” is that this “saved” person is going through.

I’m sincerely interested in your perspective. Thank you.