What China Learned from America's Biggest World War Two Naval Victory

The National Interest ^ | June 3, 2016 | Lyle J. Goldstein

[Redmen4ever]

Thanks.

CV1 effectively an escort. So I didn’t count it.

CV8, Hornet, commissioned October 20th, about six weeks prior to Pearl Harbor. First Mission: the Doolittle Raid. Outfitted with B-24s at Norfolk, and then sent via the Panama Canal to the Pacific. I was thinking of the Hornet as the first new fleet carrier of the war. But, there it is, it was part of the inventory from the start. I should have counted it.

[Psalm 144]

They just seem obsolescent to me, in an age of hypersonic guided missiles. We are approaching the 100th anniversary of Billy Mitchell’s proof of their utility after WWI. In the meantime, other systems have emerged which seem to make them more vulnerable and as dated as massed heavy armor on land.

I don’t pretend to expertise, but that is my impression.

[central_va]

Aircraft carries will become obsolete when the concept of having air superiority over huge swaths of ocean becomes obsolete. Which means never.

[Alas Babylon!]

Another mistake pointed out in this piece is that the Japanese carrier strike force had two contradictory missions at Midway, both supporting the invasion of the island and also destroying the U.S. Navy forces in the area, so that at a critical juncture, the Japanese Navy was “chasing two rabbits at the same time” (同时追两只兔子).

In fairness to Japan, I don't know about that.

If you're going to take your enemy's fortified island, you're also going to have to take on his naval assets protecting said island. How else could you achieve your invasion goal? Ignore his counter-attacks sinking your transports?

[central_va]

No carrier in the Pacific war was sunk by land based aircraft in WWII.

[exit82]

Just for general info.

Here is a site on one of those CVE’s—Escort Carriers.

http://www.ussblockisland.org/Beta/Welcome.html

USS Block Island—there were two with that name—CVE-21 and CVE-106. CVE-106 was the replacement for CVE-21, sunk in the Atlantic in May,1944.

The two carriers were manned by the same crew—a first in Navy history. The first carrier served in the Atlantic. The second in the Pacific.

Escort carriers could be built much more quickly than a full size carrier, and many were built to take up the slack until larger carriers could come on line.

My uncle was on both these ships.

When CVE-21 was torpedoed, he spent 13 hours in the water until he was rescued, because the destroyers in the group had to hunt down and sink the U-Boat that sank their ship.

The pictures on this site show what an escort carrier was like.

[bert]

To understand Midway, the book Shattered Sword should be purchased and read. The Chinese analysis is superficial compared to that presented in Shattered Sword.

A Freeper non sequitur recommended it to me and i am in his debt

[The_Media_never_lie]

Hopefully, China learned that sneak attacks upon the U.S. are doomed to fail. Hopefully, Obama will not teach them differently.

[alfa6]

The mission of the IJN at Midway was to destroy the US Navy’s carriers. The invasion of Midway was to be the means by which the IJN would wipe out the remaining USN carriers.

The “Two Rabbits” scenario is accurate, what doomed the IJN at Midway and in several other battles was the Japanese habit of scripting large multi-force battles of large areas. The IJN Midway operation consisted of at least 4 surface forces spread out from the south of Midway all the way to the Aleutian islands. Another example see IJN operations once the US invaded Leyte!

Also regards the “two rabbits’ look at Spruance’s decisions during the Mariannas Turkey Shoot battle. One may argue with Spruances decision but at least he made a decision.

Nagumo’s dithering on the second strike at Midway put the IJN carriers in no-mans land. The IJN could not launch a strike on either objective. Had Nagumo launched the strike on Midway then quite possibly he would have been able to launch on the US carriers.

Shifting to the the role on the US Navy’s torpedo squadrons at Midway. While historians tend to focus on the devastating loses suffered by the VT squadrons, something like 80+% IIRC and the VT squadrons role in bringing the IJN CAP down to the ocean surface freeing up the way for the dive bomber squadrons to wreak havoc on Kido Butai. What is not noted is that the VT squadrons attack took place about 1 hour before the VB squadrons showed up. During that fateful hour time lag was the attacks by the Midway air forces. B-17s, B-26s carrying torpedos!, TBFs, and Marine SBDs and SB2Us all attacked in piecemeal fashion. The IJN carriers were busy landing and launching CAP aircraft to protect the IJN carriers.

One final note if I may. IJN carrier flight operations were about 180 degrees from the way the US Navy conducted flight ops. This led in a small part to the demise of the IJN carriers.

See Shattered Sword by Jon Parshall and Antony Tully for the battle from the Japanese side as well as puncturing some of the “myths” of the battle.

Production stats for US vs Japan in WW-II as well as a “possible” timeline in the event that the IJN won at Midway.

http://www.combinedfleet.com/economic.htm

Regards

alfa6 ;>}

[SoCal Pubbie]

Yet land based aircraft sure posed a threat to an invasion force.

[central_va]

The planes sent form midway to attack the Jap fleet didn’t do so well.....

[bruoz]

Great book. It is interesting how the differences in carrier construction and fire fighting tactics differed between the IJN and USN and contributed to the former’s defeat at Midway.

[Tallguy]

“Japanese admirals are criticized here for their attachment to “traditional methods” in the manner they organized their forces prior to the Midway battle. Thus, it is explained that the “designated main force of battleships” was placed behind the carrier force, so that after the initial contact, the battleship force could “then enter the fray to launch the decisive blow””

True enough. But here is the conclusion that I draw from the “PLAN Conclusion”... they are not going to build a large carrier fleet for Blue Water operations. They plan to fight within the seas that they control, and under land-based air cover. Moreover, they plan to use unconventional methods, like their sea-denial DF-21 “carrier killer” ballistic missiles to upset US naval planning. This is not to say that they aren’t going to build a couple of carrier divisions for sea-lane control, and “show-the-flag” operations.

“Another mistake pointed out in this piece is that the Japanese carrier strike force had two contradictory missions at Midway, both supporting the invasion of the island and also destroying the U.S. Navy forces in the area, so that at a critical juncture, the Japanese Navy was “chasing two rabbits at the same time”.”

That wouldn’t have happened if the USN hadn’t penetrated the IJN naval cipher. The idea was to hit Midway fast & hard, taking it before the US fleet intervened. The Japanese planned to take the 2 rabbits sequentially, and was not sufficiently flexible to account for the possibility of having to take them on simultaneously.

[BroJoeK]

exit82: "...CVE-21, sunk in the Atlantic in May,1944."

The only escort carrier sunk in the Atlantic.
In the Pacific, five escort carriers were sunk (six counting Langley).
Curiously, that matches the five fleet and light carriers sunk in the Pacific.
But since escorts outnumbered fleet & light carriers about four to one, you could argue they had a better survival rate.

Of course, none of the new Essex class were sunk and Hornet was the last of the pre-Essex fleet carriers sunk (October 1942).
Escort carriers continued being sunk by kamikazes well into 1945.

[BroJoeK]

central_va: "No carrier in the Pacific war was sunk by land based aircraft in WWII."

Please meet the USS Princeton, CVL-23, sunk by land based Japanese bomber during the Battle of Leyte Gulf (1944):

Yes, it was the only one, unless you count kamikazes.
Kamikazes sunk three escort carriers, Bismark Sea, Ommaney Bay and Saint Lo.

[central_va]

The closet that a fleet carrier came to being sunk by land based aircraft was the USS Ben Franklin. Only miraculously super human effort kept her afloat.

[BroJoeK]

After Hornet sank in October 1942 no US fleet carriers were sunk by any enemy action -- whether sea-based, land-based, submarines, mines or anything else.
Of the Essex class carriers, Franklin was the most heavily damaged.

But smaller carriers were sunk throughout the war by all of the above, plus kamikazes.

[Ozark Tom]

Perhaps China is “fighting the last war”. Everyone thought BB’s would be decisive in WWII; but, in that case CV’s air power won the day.

Autonomous drone submarines are yet to be fully appreciated.

[sparklite2]

Carrier-killing supersonic, wave-skipping, missiles launched from portable launchers or destroyers will shape the next war.

See Yakhont , Sunburn, and Oniks.

[SoCal Pubbie]

I understand that. However, the second Jspanese fleet was tasked with an invasion of Midway. Hence the attack fleet had to address land based aircraft on the island.