Posted on 11/08/2015 11:32:40 AM PST by SJackson
Family Research Council president Tony Perkins has been broadcasting his “Washington Watch†radio program from Israel this week, where he is helping to lead an FRC tour group. Also on the tour is former Rep. Michele Bachmann of Minnesota, who joined Perkins on the program on Wednesday to share her view that biblical prophecy is being fulfilled all around her and that it was more urgent than ever to convert as many people as possible — including Jews — to Christianity to prepare for the imminent return of Christ.
“Almost every article in the paper†has to do with conflicts in Israel, Bachmann said, “and it ties with so much biblical prophecy. This week really was about biblical prophecy in many ways. And we’re seeing as events are speeding up, events are speeding up so quickly right now, and we see how relevant the Bible is, and we’re reading our newspaper, at the same time we’re learning about these biblical events, and it’s literally day by day by day, we’re seeing the fulfillment of scripture right in front of our eyes, even while we’re on the ground.â€
“We recognize the shortness of the hour,†she said, “and that’s why we as a remnant want to be faithful in these days and do what it is that the Holy Spirit is speaking to each one of us, to be faithful in the Kingdom and to help bring in as many as we can — even among the Jews — share Jesus Christ with everyone that we possibly can because, again, He’s coming soon.â€
While many Christians may believe that they are doing Jews a favor by trying to convert them, it is viewed as insulting and offensive. Our faith has existed for over 3,700 years, and includes an covenant with G-d that He would watch over us and protect us if we "walk in His ways," so to try to convert us is not only telling us that we are wrong, it is trying to detach us from the faith of our Fathers, the teachings that were handed by G-d to Moses on Mt. Sinai, and our connection with G-d. Oh, and BTW, it is also the faith that Jesus had - it is his followers that morphed it into something else.
Additionally, the failure of many in the past to convert Jews to their religion (various forms of paganism, Christianity and Islam) has led to enormous and hideous violence against Jews. Thanks, but no thanks, just leave us alone. Worry about your own souls, let us worry about ours. In fact, leaving us alone is probably one of the best things that you can do for your own souls. "And I will bless those who bless you, and the one who curses you I will curse, and all the families of the earth shall be blessed in you."
Welcome. Roger that on the site-— for a while the .org was offline or poorly populated, so I had deferred to the .ca one.
To be clear, I don’t want to obliterate Jews, Jewish culture, Jewish tradition. Jewish history is fundamental to having some understanding of who the Creator is and what His purposes are for us.
If it were up to me, I’d have Christians drop all their holidays and instead embrace Jewish festivals. They’re a much richer way to reflect on the enduring love of G-d. After all, Jesus wasn’t a Christian; he was Jewish.
Except that there's a LONG history of failed attempts to convert Jews, followed shortly thereafter by inquistions, pogroms, a few attempts at genocide, etc. Jews are kind of hard-wired at this point to have the hairs on the back of their necks stand up when this topic comes up - and you're a damned fool if you don't understand that.
Additionally, saying to someone, "Hey, your religion is wrong, you need to follow mine" is pretty over the top. How about live and let live? How about not trying to convince someone to separate themselves from the faith that their family has followed for over 3,700 years, the very act of which (the separation) would cause them to be spiritually separated from G-d? FYI, Jews likewise have a right to tell Bachmann and people like her to do anatomically impossible acts to themselves. It is not our preference - we'd generally like to be left alone - but it is often forced upon us.
FYI, Bachmann clearly has a lot of loose hardware rattling around inside of her skull - you might want to rethink being reflexively in her corner.
Says you. For us Jews, salvation is through faith in G-d (Whom you call the Father) and none other. He made a covenant with us, we don't need OR WANT to replace it with another one (and, in fact, if we do we have committed a grave sin - and the Jewish carpenter that you worship believed the same, it is his early followers who changed that).
We (Christians) want to share that with everybody. What, do you hate the Jews so much that you would deny them the Gospel?
Well thanks for wanting to share - I can't fault someone for the inclination to be generous. However, I would politely decline if you were to offer me some bacon, however well-intentioned that you might be. Similarly, I will decline your invitation to dis G-d by giving up my faith. Maybe, before you offer someone something, you should think about whether they can or want to accept it? Maybe, especially when a very little bit of research, and common sense, might inform you that such an offer is insulting. Maybe a little more research would teach you that similar "generous" offers in the past resulted - after rejection of said offer - in hideous violence against Jews?
You have your covenant, we Jews have ours. Leave us alone to practice our faith - we have no problem with you following yours. That is all that we Jews have ever asked.
“Because we aren’t going to saw your head off with a rusty scimitar if you refuse? Just a thought.”
Maybe, however, you should brush up on your history of Christian (and mainly Catholic) relations with the Jewish people - specifically those Jews who refused to convert. Then you would have a better understanding of why Jews have the hairs on the backs of their necks stand on end when this topic comes up.
Please just believe what you will, but don't steal my God of the Jews in order to impose the will of followers of a prophet. Make not war upon my house, nor others.
That may be true now, but it wasn't for a LONG time. Read the history of Christian-Jewish (and, particularly, Catholic-Jewish) relations going back oh, about 1950 years or so. Mostly it isn't a story with a great ending for the Jews involved - and that is why we are less than thrilled to hear about, or be subject to, attempts to convert us, however well-intentioned that they may seem or be (because many of the early attempts started out the same way, real polite and all).
You folks have your covenant with G-d, and we have ours. Why don't you and we agree - in a very civil manner - to disagree about our faiths and have the decency to respect the right of each other to be left alone. That's all that Jews have ever asked, by the way - just to be left alone. How about actually respecting that desire, which is no skin off of your collective backs, for once in the last 2 millenia? We just finished having one-third of our people shot and gassed within living memory, and now a bunch of lunatic Moslems with ballistic missiles and a very strong desire to acquire nukes are making threatening noises about murdering another 6 million or so of us. Just so you know, we're getting a bit tired of this kind of stuff. Hope you understand.
FYI, Jews don't try to convert ANYONE and, in fact, it is very difficult for someone to effect a genuine conversion because it is our belief and practice (at least the traditional Orthodox one) that a potential convert should be strongly (though politely) rebuffed at least 3 times before the process is allowed to go through, and we are never supposed to initiate the entire process.
Maybe try reading and understanding what G-d promised Abraham in Genesis 12:3: "And I will bless those who bless you, and the one who curses you I will curse, and all the families of the earth shall be blessed in you."
Thinking or believing what you want is not at issue. DOING something based on that belief IS. For the record, I can assure you that no Jew with any grounding in Jewish beliefs, practices or traditions actually cares what you believe - we only care what you do about it. Oh, don't get me wrong, we'd certainly like you to at least abide by the 7 Noahide laws (which I think that Christianity pretty much covers), because we certainly have nothing against you all attaining a place in the World to Come (what you'd call "Heaven"), but your beliefs BY THEMSELVES don't affect us very much. But we are also rather keenly aware of the history of our own people, and these things (which ALWAYS start as a polite discussion) are never viewed by Jews in a positive light - see below.
You are clearly not very well-informed (at least not based upon that line) about the history of Christian attempts to convert Jews. In the interest of time, I'll give you a really condensed version: it NEVER ends well for the Jews, and occasionally the hatred generated in the Christians by the Jews refusing to give up their faith leads to oppression, expulsion, asset seizures, massacres and, sometimes, attempts at genocide. The last such attempt at genocide is still within living memory, and before you say, "but the Nazis weren't Christian, they certainly didn't ACT in a Christian way, they were pagans" (which, btw, is correct), let me assure you that without the constant drumbeat of anti-Jewish official teachings, literature and actions on the part of Christian authorities, what the Nazis did would not have been possible. Perhaps if you understood that, REALLY understood it, you might understand the lack of an open mind on the subject by Jews.
Oh, FYI, people saying (out of sincere and well-intentioned belief, no doubt) that "salvation is only through Jesus" is not very philosophically far from "if you don't believe in Jesus, you're going to Hell." That is not very philosophically far from "OK, let's get rid of all of those who are going to Hell." You may think that the last step is a big leap (and, hopefully, for you and everyone else in the world it IS), but history shows otherwise. That is why we Jews are a bit touchy on the subject. Read your history, in addition to your gospels, and maybe you'll have a better appreciation of that.
The Shema is the statement of faith. The golden rule is different. Go look it up in the Jewish Encyclopedia.
OK, I'll give you that. But usually good human relations require that one give a little bit of consideration to the sensitivities of the other people with whom you deal (no matter what their belief system may be, or why you are dealing with them). For us Jews, attempts at the conversion of us to Christianity NEVER end well, and the culmination of the hatred over many centuries caused by our refusal to convert was the starvation, shooting and gassing of over 1/3 of the Jewish people within living memory.
Perhaps - and I say this as kindly as I can - your (and I mean that in a collective sense, not about you personally) Christian charity might include an understanding of what Jews have been through, historically speaking.
Perhaps you might also try to understand, from a theological point of view, that G-d has a covenant with the Jews. G-d, not being a human, doesn't lie, doesn't go back on His word, and certainly knows both human nature and the future perfectly. Given that, it is theologically absurd to believe that G-d has invalidated His covenant with the Jews, because He had a crystal clear view of ALL of the events of the future at the time He made His covenant - so why would He have done it, simply to "take it back" a couple millenia later? Given that a covenant is a holy contract (i.e. a CONTRACT), maybe you should consider that G-d has the right and the ability to enter into more than one contract (we mere humans do that all the time, how can we presume to limit G-d to only one?).
In short, and with respect, please leave us alone. Roughly 1900 years of bad results from your (again collectively) conversion efforts have left the Jewish people rather testy about the whole situation; we would hope that you would understand - try cracking the binding on a few history books and showing us some of that well-advertised Christian kindness by just letting us be.
“Good luck there. For everyone that does, you will have a dozen that won’t. Hollywood is a prime example.
"A lot of people who were born Jewish have accepted JC as the Messiah...but once they did that, they ceased being Jewish."
There, fixed it for you.
All of the condemnations the Prophets of Israel hurled against the Jewish People, could just as fittingly be hurled against the Catholics: that your people and mine have acted against their divine heritage.
And of those to whom much is given, much more will be expected.
The origin of the story “that which is hateful to you...” was an answer that Rabbi Hillel gave to a brash person who demanded that he be taught the entire Torah “on one foot.”
That that Christianity holds itself as more moral or loving by calling its credo “love thy neighbor” means only that you chose to highlight that difference. (they are anti-hero, we Christians are pro-love.)
It’s a relative ‘feel good’ however, as Jews say, viahavta l’reyacha kamocha, love your neighbor as yourself. From where did JC learn such a thing?
That's just your physical body. Oh, don't get me wrong, I'm quite attached to it, both literally and figuratively, and I'm not quite ready to give it up just yet. But it IS only physical. The REAL ME is my soul, my neshama. Converting to any belief system other than the faith decreed by the G-d of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob would do irreparable harm to my neshama.
Please also understand the impact that conversion attempts have had on the Jewish people over time. Follow this logic: 1. Belief in Jesus is the only road to salvation. 2. Failure to believe in Jesus means that you go to Hell. 3. Those people who are going to Hell are not good people (else why would they be going there?). 4. People who aren't good are...bad. 5. Kill the bad people, G-d doesn't want them here! Now YOU, and perhaps every sincere Christian on this thread, may never get to 3, 4 and (especially) 5, but historically this has happened with sickening regularity. We Jews are keenly aware of this...and all that we want is to be left alone. That entire train of thought begins with a polite conversation about Jesus - ALWAYS has, and always will. I hope and pray that 3, 4 and 5 never come about again, but human nature has been set by G-d and is unchanging (at least until He sends His Messiah).
Thanks for thinking of us in a positive way (I hope), but please understand what it is that you are trying to accomplish. G-d has an everlasting covenant with the Jews - so long as they, as a people, walk in His ways. Yes, occasionally we get punished for straying from His words, but ultimately He will send his Messiah and set the world right.
Amen to that - Judaism is most definitely NOT a religion about proselytizing people.
Period.
Stop.
Not according to them.
“If you do not believe in Jesus, He doesn’t consider you a Jew:”
Oh, and to address G_P_H’s observations regarding the lack of a Temple, etc.: You know, parents sometimes punish children who don’t obey them - sometimes quite severely. Maybe you should consider that, plus the everlasting covenant, plus the educational value to the rest of humanity (which YOU clearly haven’t taken advantage of) of a badly punished people who STILL, DESPITE THE MANY HARDSHIPS, believe in His words and promises. FYI, that carpenter cousin of mine DID so believe (though he clearly didn’t live in a world that lacked the Temple); it was only his followers who changed the meaning of his words (which were intended to condemn the corruption of the Roman-dominated Temple hierarchy and lead the Jewish people back to the righteous ways of their ancestors - nothing more and nothing less).
I trust in G-d alone, not the words of men.
“...how about concentrating on converting Muslims to Christianity instead?...”
Way I see it...
How about all of us Christian and Jewish folk just remember we’re AMERICANS, have much more in common with each other, and leave each other in peace, and concentrate on the real, viable enemy that wants to divide, conquer, and kill us all?
That would be the muzz and their liberal allies, for anyone who still doesn’t get it.
Nobody wants to “be converted” to anything. It’s a free will thing.
I would just as quickly place myself in harm’s way to protect a Synagogue and my Jewish brethren as I would a Church.
We’re Americans. This is how we’re SUPPOSED to be.
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