KORAN DISCOVERY ONLY STRENGTHENS ISLAM

Frontpagemag.com ^ | September 4, 2015 | Raymond Ibrahim

[Biggirl]

The media is abuzz with news that a portion of the Koran, which Muslims believe was first recited by their prophet, Muhammad, may actually predate Muhammad himself. Many seem to think that such news will have a large impact on the Muslim world and make Muslims rethink the veracity of their faith.

[Yosemitest]

All things written in the Bible must come to pass,
and we WILL get to the day worse than has ever been.

And this too shall pass...

They hate him that rebuketh in the gate,
and they abhor him that speaketh uprightly.
Forasmuch therefore as your treading is upon the poor,
and ye take from him burdens of wheat:
ye have built houses of hewn stone,
but ye shall not dwell in them;
ye have planted pleasant vineyards,
but ye shall not drink wine of them.
For I know your manifold transgressions and your mighty sins:
they afflict the just,
they take a bribe,
and they turn aside the poor in the gate from their right.

Can you remember reading about "a thorn in their side"?

"But if ye will not drive out the inhabitants of the land from before you;
then it shall come to pass,
that those which ye let remain of them
shall be pricks in your eyes,
and thorns in your sides,
and shall vex you in the land wherein ye dwell.
Moreover
it shall come to pass,
that I shall do unto you,
as I thought to do unto them."

The command I await is...

"Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them".

[Mrs. Don-o]

Coercive sterilization is repugnant to both Christian and Western secular ethics. Unless you consider Hitler/Sangerite ideology representative of Western civilization,-— in which case, whichever side you say you’re on, I’m opposed.

[musicman]

"KORAN DISCOVERY
ONLY STRENGTHENS ISLAM...."



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[Vigilanteman]

Many seem to think that such news will have a large impact on the Muslim world and make Muslims rethink the veracity of their faith.

I'm not sure who those "many" would be inasmuch as those who don't think much in the first place are unlikely candidates to rethink.

The main sources of Muslim conversations in the first place are:

1. Conquest
   
2. Those born into the faith who prefer to keep their heads attached to their necks.
   
3. Violent psychopaths who would like the covering of a religious fig leaf.

Tell me where I am wrong.

[Red Badger]

PinGGG!.......................

[Mrs. Don-o]

"All things written in the Bible must come to pass

I believe that too.

However Ishmael was not a Muslim.

[GraceG]

[ A copy of the quran could be found fossilized in the crap of a dinosaur and they’d still insist it was the word of mohamhead. ]

Islam is one of the few religions that claims it existed before the “so called prophet” that created the religion itself existed....

It would be as ridiculous as Saying that Moses was a Christian....

All Christians know that Moses was in fact JEW!

[Yosemitest]

Do you NOTY understand that God was not ONLY speaking of "Ishmael,", but of ALL the nations (n an ethnic sense only) that would descend OUT of his loins ?

Read Genesis 25:12-16 for a start.

The writings of an old teacher discusses this issue well.

Ishmael himself was prophesied to become a "wild ass of a man," with "his hand against every man, and every man's hand against him."
The term should not be understood as an insult, the way it would be used today.
Rather, it implied a fierce, hardy, untamed man of the desert; a warrior who would always dwell "near his brethren."
Writing of the history of the Bedoin tribes of the Arab nations of the last century, Kitto says,
"Nearly 4,000 years have passed since the Ishmaelites became a nation [a people, not a single political entity],
and yet in disposition, in manners, in habits, in government, in occupation, and even in dress, they are the same as they were at the first"
(Kitto's Bible Cyclopedia, vol II, p.431).

As the centuries passed, and as the children of Abraham through Keturah mingled with the children of Abraham through Hagar and Ishmael, many different Middle Eastern tribes developed.
Eventually, they occupied vast areas from near India in the east to the Mediterranean, and gradually spread across Northern Africa.


"And it has not been in the confines of their own desert home only that
`the hand of the Ishmaelite has been against every man.'
Inspired by the fierce fanaticism, and led by the daring chiefs of Mohammed,
they carried their victorious arms to the banks of the Oxus and the Indus on the east, and over Syria, Egypt, Northern Africa, and Spain, to the shore of the Atlantic on the west" (ibid. P. 431).
Notice that the Bible said the sons of Ishmael were listed by "their cities and their camps," and by their "princes according to their nations."
Kitto says,
"In this respect the statements in the Bible exactly accord with the ancient traditions and histories of the Arabs themselves.
Native historians divide the Arabs into two races:
1. Pure Arabs; descendants of Joktan;
and 2. Mixed Arabs, descendants of Ishmael" (ibid. p. 430).

For many centuries, the "purest Arabs" were known as "Bedouins," which meant "dwellers in the open land," or nomads.
The term is
"...the name given to the most important, as it is the best known, division of the Arab race.
The Bedouins are the descendants of the Arabs of North Arabia whose traditions claim Ishmael as their ancestor.
The deserts of North Arabia seem to have been their earliest home, but even in ancient times they had migrated to the lowlands of Egypt and Syria.
The Arab conquest of northern Africa in the 7th century A.D. caused a wide dispersion,
so that today the Arab element is strongly represented in the Nile Valley
[most modern citizens of Egypt are Arabs, not ethnic Egyptians],
Saharan, and Nubian peoples" (The Encyclopedia Britannica, Eleventh Edition, Vol. 3, p. 623).

The earliest known traditions among the Arabs of the Saudi Arabian peninsula
[the name "Saudi" is strictly a family, or tribal name]
are that their people are derived from two stocks,
the "...pure Arabs, descended from Kahtan or Joktan, fourth in descent from Shem;
and the Mustarab or naturalized Arabs, from Ishmael" (ibid. Vol. 2. p. 261).
Therefore, according to their own traditions, the many Arab nations represent a mixture of Hamitic and Semitic stocks.
The same authority says,
"Arabia is a land of Semites, and is supposed by some scholars to have been the original home of the Semitic peoples.
Although this cannot be said to be proved, the studies, linguistic and archaeological, of Semitic scholars have shown it to be probable.
The dispersion from Arabia is easy to imagine.
The migration into Babylonia was simple, as there are no natural boundaries to separate it from northeast Arabia...
the connection with Palestine has always been close
...Arabian literature has its own version of prehistoric times, but it is entirely legendary and apocryphal" (ibid. P. 263).
...

[AnotherUnixGeek]

Many seem to think that such news will have a large impact on the Muslim world and make Muslims rethink the veracity of their faith.

If reality hasn't already done that, nothing will.

[Yosemitest]

Hebrews 5:11-14

[BuffaloJack]

Since the Koran pre-dates Mad Moe, I guess that makes Mad Moe a liar and fraud, as well as a pedofile and womanizer.

[Mrs. Don-o]

However, if you speak of "all the nations that descended" out of Ishmael's loins, you'd have to include Armenia, the first Christian nation in history (it declared itself a Christian Nation in 300 AD), as well as the once-majority (pre-Muhammad) Christians of Egypt, the Maghreb and Levant (Christian North Africa, once the ecclesiastic province of 200+ Christian bishops), Anatolia (present-day Turkey), Chaldea (present-day Iraq), Lebanon, etc.

And the majority of Muslims today are neither Arabic nor Ishmaelite. Around 60%+ of the world's Muslims live in South and Southeast Asia, with the biggest population concentration being in Indonesia. Followed by Pakistan, India, and Bangladesh.

The Ishmaelite racial thing really, really doesn't work.

[Mrs. Don-o]

Amen and +1 to that.

[Yosemitest]

ABSOLUTELY it works.
The Bible is clear on this.

[Yosemitest]

"if you speak of "all the nations that descended" out of Ishmael's loins, you'd have to include
Armenia, the first Christian nation in history (it declared itself a Christian Nation in 300 AD),
as well as the once-majority (pre-Muhammad) Christians of Egypt, the Maghreb and Levant (Christian North Africa, once the ecclesiastic province of 200+ Christian bishops),
Anatolia (present-day Turkey), Chaldea (present-day Iraq), Lebanon, etc."

You're forgetting the earlier lines from Noah's sons.
Abraham is from the line of Japhet.
But you also have the line of Shem, and the line of Ham.

Seven Sons of Japheth (see map below):
1. Javan (Greece, Romans, Romance -- French, Italians, Spanish, Portuguese)
2. Magog (Scythians, Slavs, Russians, Bulgarians, Bohemians, Poles, Slovaks, Croatians)
3. Madai (Indians & Iranic: Medes, Persians, Afghans, Kurds)
4. Tubal (South of Black Sea)
5. Tiras (Thracians, Teutons, Germans, Scandinavian, Anglo-Saxon, Jutes)
6. Meshech (Russia)
7. Gomer (Celtic)

Five Sons of Shem (see map below):
1. Elam (Arabia)
2. Asshur (Assyria)
3. Lud (Lydians)
4. Aram (Aramaic, Armenia, Mesopotamia, Syria)
5. Arphaxad (From which Abraham descended)

Four Sons of Ham (see map below):
1. Mizraim (Egypt)
2. Cush (Sudan, Ethiopia)
3. Put (Lybia)
4. Canaan (Hivites, Jebusites, Arvadites, Girgashites, Amorites, Arkites, Sinites, Hittites, Sidonians, Perizzites, Zemarites)



TABLE O F NATIONS (70), Ham, Shem & Japheth

[To Hell With Poverty]

Fascinating, do you have sources for this or is it mostly your personal observation? I would love to see your points delved into further.

[I want the USA back]

They will chop the heads of anyone who dares say anything about it.

[Mike Darancette]

Strengthens Islam about as much as finding out that the Gospel of John was written in 100 BC would help the voracity of the New Testament.

[The_Reader_David]

The textual criticism of the Qu'ran was done by a German scholar just a few years ago and references to it can be certainly be found online. My source for the tradition among Arab Christians is Arab Christians -- I serve a little mission of the Antiochian Archdiocese as its council president and a subdeacon (in Greek usage a glorified altar boy with special duties at hierarchical liturgies, in Russian usage a very minor clergyman), and we sometimes have people from the Old Country (meaning Lebanon and Syria) visit. I've discussed the matter with them face-to-face. The coincidence of the name of the Assyrian bishop of Kirkuk with Mohammed's source is my own observation. I can't find where I learned the bishop's name, and my source may have misidentified him as the bishop of Kirkuk -- there was a Mar Gabriel of Kashkar, a city further south, contemporaneous with Mohammed's early preaching who founded monasteries in Mosul and evirons (see here).

[Mrs. Don-o]

Your map there doesn't even take you to the Indus, and the most populous Muslim nations in the world are east of the Indus. Moreover, the earliest Christian communities were overwhelmingly of the Semitic and Hamitic descent (if you want to shoehorn it into your classification system.) Like, so what? Christ breaks down all the walls of division (Eph. 2:14)

If you want to retain your intricate racial beliefs, which purport to link racial inheritance to moral temperament and national destiny, then I advise you not to look into actual population genetics, because your whole scheme will fall apart.

So, back to earlier points:

• Ishmael was not a Muslim.
• And most Muslims do not spring from Ishmael's loins.

Sorry about that.