Posted on 07/22/2015 11:57:01 AM PDT by safetysign
I do realize that everyone from Charles Krauthammer to the recently escaped Mexican drug lord, El Chapo, is piling onto Donald Trump for his straight-forward remarks. Well, being the contrarian that I am, I am going to come down on the side of Mr. Trump!
Do I like him? No. Never have. I don't like his swagger, his cockiness, his arrogance. And I certainly don't care for that mop of comb-over fake hair. But they say the difference between egotism and self-assurance is the ability to produce. By any measure, he certainly wins that contest, both at home and abroad. True, he was born with a silver spoon, but he, and he alone, turned it into gold!
The first thing he did after declaring his presidential candidacy was to observe that Mexico was not sending their "best and brightest" across our southern border. Instead, in Mr. Trump's opinion, they are sending their gang members, their druggies, their serial felons and killers. Certainly, the tragic instance in San Francisco, and others elsewhere, have borne out the truth of his statement.
But the Honorable Senator John McCain (R-AZ) picked a fight by calling him, and others like him, "crazies" for criticizing Mexican immigration. I guess when you are worth $10 BILLION of your own making, you feel free to take issue when a politician calls you crazy! So The Donald retaliated with the statement that getting yourself captured doesn't necessarily make you a hero. "He's a war hero because he was captured? I like people who weren't captured." With that, all hell broke loose in the mainstream media, as well as the Karl Rove dominated Republican establishment -- and the gaggle of GOP presidential wannabes.
But it might behoove us at this point in time to wonder just why would getting captured make you a hero? And why would remaining in captivity make you a military expert, and thus qualified to currently fill the roles of chairman of both the Senate Committee on Armed Services and Senate Committee on Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs. And one might ask, how has his leadership in both these strategic positions of responsibility been working out for ya'?
Since Mr. Trump expressed his opinion, there is now a whole group of Vietnam veterans who have come forward with statements that highly question the Senator's preferential treatment as the son and grandson of Navy admirals, and his loyalty to his country while in captivity. Some even place him in the Jane Fonda category. Among the allegations are: John McCain was a below average student, getting into the Naval Academy due to his father's and grandfather's influence and naval careers. Both were admirals. McCain was a boozing, smoking, womanizing party animal, graduating fifth from the bottom of his class at Annapolis. John McCain's arms were broken not from being tortured by the North Vietnamese, as he has claimed, but when he improperly ejected from his plane over North Vietnam. According to his fellow prisoners, he was never tortured by the North Vietnamese.
John McCain's nickname among his North Vietnamese captors was "Songbird," as he was eager to tell them anything they wanted to hear to avoid torture. It is claimed that he made 32 propaganda videos for the North Vietnamese in which he blamed the United States for targeting schools, temples, orphanages, and hospitals. McCain has admitted to making one propaganda video.
And from a US Navy Aviator who served with McCain: "His "shoot down" was self-induced, as he DISOBEYED ORDERS and flew well below the 'floor,' getting himself shot down. There were several other jets on that particular mission and he was the only one shot down, because the others obeyed their orders." But if you think these opinions of Senator McCain are somewhat negative, try this one by Theodore Shoebat, Communications Director for Rescue Christians, an organization that is on the ground in Muslim lands, rescuing Christians from persecution, and the author of two books, For God or For Tyranny and In Satan's Footsteps: The Source and Interconnections of all Evil.
"John McCain is a giant bag of scum; his mouth is a continual sewer of bile, his heart is a decayed rot of dung, his mind a river of filth, and his soul is amongst the damned. He is nothing but a murderous scumbag. His evils are so great, that the words of Trump don't even bother me. McCain is a demon incarnate. His service in Vietnam does nothing to justify the evils he has supported and pushed for." The late Daniel Patrick Moynihan said it well: "Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts." Mr. Trump expressed his opinion, twice, apparently based upon ample facts. Was it the politically smart thing for him to do? Perhaps not, but isn't it refreshing, for once, to see a candidate for political office speaking his mind, instead of having his thoughts evaluated by a panel of political analysts before expressing them? At least Trump is now branded as a no-holds-barred fighter, a type of leadership our country desperately needs at this time -- and could certainly have used in the recent Iranian nuclear negotiations. Can you imagine the outcome had he been there instead of "Swiftboat" Kerry? The GOP needs for someone to break away from the pack of wilting violets currently running for the 2016 candidacy, and Trump may have just done it! As I write this, the liberally reluctant Washington Post poll shows Trump leading by 24%, followed by Walker at 13, Bush at 12, Huckabee at 8, Rubio at 7, etc., etc. Fasten your seat belts folks, we ain't seen nothing yet!
This guy understands McCain perfectly.
Don’t be so sure of that
read this prize-winning historians investigation inot the Forrestal disastrer
She compares McCains version of what went down that day (published in his book “Faith of My Fathers” and other interviews) with other sources and interviews with other eyewitnesses and finds disturbing discrepancies
For example McCain claims the misfired Zuni hit his aircraft....which is false
He claims the missile hit (false) caused his aircraft to release 2 bombs (only one bomb was released) which sent the conflagration into a major disaster and the bomb blast killed many including LCDR Fred White, the pilot in the aircraft next to McCain - whose plane was the one hit by the Zuni. Fred White is airbrushed out of McCains memories and narratives about that day...why?
If McCain’s aircraft was NOT hit by the Zuni missile but McCains aitrcraft released a bomb, sources told the historian it was because McCain hit the wrong switches when trying to get out of his aircraft. I am not an A-4 pilot so cannot vouch for that. But the SkyHawl association does memorialize Fred White as the pilot whose plane was struck by the Zuni.
Now, one would think McCain w9uld remember the facts of that incident...so why the false narrative?
To me the most UNBELIEVABLE fact is that McCain showed up in Saigon drinking scotch and talking to a NYT reporter less than 48 hours after the Forrestal disaster!
The day after this accident - in which he was in the center and saw his squad mates and deck crew killed before his eyes, he left the Forrestal while it was still burning and the dead still missing. He missed the memorial service held for his crew and his unit. Almost the day after the disaster, McCain told reporters in Saigon he was having some “much needed R&R”.
WHAT MILITARY OFFUCER DOES THAT??????
He left his buddies behind, possibly the only officer to leave the ship except for the medivacs. Only after a week did he rejoin his cripple carrier and crew for debriefings in Subic and then jetted off for 3 months of screwing around in Europe (where Dad was the Commander Naval Forces) during the accident investigation, which found no one person at fault. The origin of the aircraft that released its bomb was probably left open (historian states deck camera film was indeterminate and all witnesses except McCain died) .... findings which may have saved his career and gotten the Orisknay to accept him as a pilot - from which he was shot down within weeks by AAA fire (not a SAM, another discrepancy he oddly claims)
I wish someone would ask Mr McCain if he ever visited the family or the grave of LCDR Fred White (buried in Arlington) who like McCain scrambled from his plane and tried to run. but was killed by the bomb blast, unlike the very fortunate McCain who suffered not a scratch nor a burn that was ever documented as being treated
http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/20081007_investigating_john_mccains_tragedy_at_sea
I saw a different documentary a few years ago, equally or better done, that did mention him and point him out in the film. But his role wasn’t relevant to the cause of the fire or the fighting of it so there is no good reason to mention him.
I adore Trump.
I have heard both ends of the spectrum on McCain which gets my caution up.
We will just have to wait and see.
Maybe he still didn’t learn ejection after screwing up getting out of his plane on the Forrestal
But a zuni missile did misfire so he didn't cause that.
He claims the missile hit (false) caused his aircraft to release 2 bombs (only one bomb was released)...
The A-4 aircraft only carried one 1,000 pound bomb so the author got that wrong.
I don't know about when he left the Forrestal but the Navy investigators said the fuel tank on McCain's and White's aircraft were hit and that the 1k lb. bombs were old and cooked off in the fuel fire 1 minute and ten seconds faster than the newer bombs they were used to using. You can believe the historian and I'll believe the Navy investigators.
This email is from and old friend and former POW:
From: Mark ‘Zippo’ Smith
Date: Tue, Jul 21, 2015 at 1:55 AM
Subject: STOP!!!!!
There are no sacred cows in politics able to attack any and all with impunity, take totally dumb positions on some issues and then have others defend them as untouchable.
Senator John McCain is my fellow returned prisoner of war and for his time in prison he and all the rest of us have been honored again and again. Our number run the gamut from incredibly brave to incredibly weak and cowardly. One thing about our number is certain,none of us enjoys any special protection within the political arena. General Eisenhower took off his five stars when he entered the arena and expected no special consideration. When he spoke out on a subject during his political campaigns he expected no flying squad to arrive and defend him based on his wartime service.
I want the country I fought for back.
From illegals with all their kiddies to the supposedly bulletproof few in Washington I say OUT if you snuck into my country and stand on your record today if you wish to attack another and allow nobody else to carry your water for you. John McCain is a man and if he wishes to attack others in the arena they are allowed to bite back. I think John understands that better than many who use him as a stalking horse to attack Trump. Some will use the opportunity to attack John McCain and that is a load of crap also.
WE ALL LOST OUR SACRED COW STATUS LONG AGO!!!!
The other candidates are merely using this tempest in teapot to gain political advantage.
Senator McCain attacked Trump and claimed those supporting him were ‘crazies’ because Trump took a stand on illegal immigration when he did not.
That opened the door and Trump fired back.
GETTING CAPTURED WAS NOT THE HIGHLIGHT OF MY OR ANY RETURNED PRISONER’S WARTIME SERVICE AND YOU HAVE TO LOSE A FIGHT TO GET THAT STATUS.
MOST OF WE RETURNED PRISONERS OF WAR REALIZED THAT OUR COUNTRY NOT ONLY WISHED TO HONOR THE SACRIFICES MADE IN THE COMMUNIST GULAG BUT ALSO WISHED TO MAKE UP FOR ALL THOSE BRAVE WHO FOUGHT THEIR BEHINDS OFF ON BEHALF OF A GENERALLY UNGRATEFUL NATION AND WERE NEVER EVEN THANKED.
WHAT DID TRUMP REALLY SAY?
‘I LIKE WINNERS AND NOT LOSERS.’
In other words honor those who fought and never lost a fight and those who fought and died beside them first.
I fought my wars with relish and spit in the eye of mine enemy in captivity,I require no media or political defenders because my honor stands on it’s own merits.
I come from the generation of leaders who ate last in the chow line and honored their soldiers first.
Just cut the crap and get my country back!
Major Mark A. SMITH,USA,Retired
RPW,Vietnam\Cambodia
Thanks for the verification regarding the Songbird.
Compare and contrast John McCain with fellow POWs, MOH winner Col. Bud Day or LtGen. John P. Flynn. Compared to these POW veteran heroes, McCain was simply a survivor. John McCain has said that he regretted that he violated the Code of Conduct.
Just for the record, Bud Day was McCain's cellmate for a time at the Hanoi Hilton. My point is that Col. Bud Day was awarded the Congressional Medal of Honor and The Air Force Cross for his time as a POW, but John McCain's highest award was a probably undeserved Silver Star.
"The investigation into the Forrestal fire was in the hands of Adm. Thomas Moorer, chief of naval operations and a close friend of McCain’s father."
So, specifically, what part of the investigative report was falsified?
“The A-4 aircraft only carried one 1,000 pound bomb so the author got that wrong”
It was McCain who claimed to release 2 bombs, It was the historian who caught his narrative on that noting there was only 1 bomb. I leave you to draw your own conclusions about why McCain would state that repeatedly over many years and interviews. As well as state his aircraft was hit by the missile when it was not
“I don’t know about when he left the Forrestal..”
You do know when he left the Forrestal (or could know) because it is in the article I linked in McCains own words, and because the NYT published an interview with him from Saigon 2 days after the accident, with the reporter who had flown out to the Forrrestal to specifically interview the Admiral’s son and who gave him a helo lift back to Saigon. With or without orders from the ship. McCain never did sweat the rules
The curiousity of how McCain ended up in Saigon within 48 hours of such a major disaster intrigued me, which is how I found this article. For normal military, the unit is like the family and who in the Navy leaves their buddies behind in a situation like that???? Not to pitch in or even just stick around for the memorial service for people who worked with you and for you and who died all around you while you walked out without a scratch????? WHO IN THE MILITARY DOES THAT???
I cannot escape the feeling that McCain was a man looking to get out of Dodge. Can only think of one reason why
I don’t think you or I will ever know what the “Navy investigators” found because CNO Admiral Moorer was a personal friend of Jack McCain and these reports always have extensive areas of known, possible, probable and unknown and the decision which words go in the report are often political
But if and when you read the article (which I doubt you will) you will see the historian interviewed eyewitnesses who contradicted McCains version of some events and McCains embellished wanderingss, even minor, from facts are very interesting and revealing
I can conclude that his memory of events had no bearing on his culpability in those events. The investigators also said that the zuni missile hit McCain's A-4.
I don’t think you or I will ever know what the “Navy investigators” found because CNO Admiral Moorer was a personal friend of Jack McCain ...
In that one statement you're smearing Adm. Moorer, Adm. McCain and Adm. Massey. I'm sure they were all in on a coverup of the worst disaster in modern Naval history in order to cover up for one Admiral's son. And Dick Cheney planted explosives in the WTC buildings.
I can see you never sat in on a military aircraft loss accident investigation board
The A4 Skyhawk association (among other sources) memorializes Fred White as the pilot whose aircraft was hit by the Zuni. I would suppose they are privy to the facts.
Why would McCain need to claim this for himself and not even mention LCDR White? I can only think of two reasons, neither honorable
http://a4skyhawk.org/content/forrestal-fire
Nothing specific - just tinged by the close relationship between McCain’s father and the lead investigator, taken in conjunction with the odd/troubling revelation of McCain’s immediate departure for “R&R” in Saigon - before funerals for the dead the following morning. Details like this lend very negative optics to the sanitized formal account.
Product of a military heritage, McCain’s low achievement rank at the academy & having crashed two planes and flown a third into power lines in his short Naval career draws one to look beyond the sanitized versions of McCain’s background.
In your link it says that White was in a aircraft hit by the rocket not that it was the only one hit. I suppose they memorialized him because he died and not McCain because he didn't. It also says 132 people died when all other accounts say that 134 died so I guess even the A4 Skyhawk association can get things wrong.
I refer you to my last statement in post #36.
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