Posted on 07/12/2015 10:13:09 AM PDT by Crystal Palace East
Edited on 07/12/2015 10:37:24 AM PDT by Sidebar Moderator. [history]
its cool bro
Also, def would put on 3-5 very expert witnesses who would testify that in such a situation, the ONLY course of action would be to remain seated, silent and sober.
I’d put on one each senior retired FBI, Seal, some small town Wilfred Brimley-type western sheriff, and Jeff Cooper.
I’s make anyone they put on look like a fool in 10 minutes. The secret is to start very respectfully, repeat their credentials, “be amazed” by their experience, etc, then turn them to be “my witness” by asking them exactly what would have happened has the Plaintiff pulled his weapon.
Their answer would have to be, “I don’t know. I wasn’t there, and I can’t predict the future.”
I’d get him to confirm that about 5 ways, then, I’d ask about the loss of advantage due to loss of surprise, plaintiff’s probable lack of realistic combat training training etc.
I would have already subpoenaed any and all Plaintiffs targets from practice sessions and asked if all these shots, the ones not in the 10 circle, they probably would have hit other diners, would they not, etc.
Then I’d get into ballistics questions, what does a 158 gr .357 mag +p hollow point (or whatever P carried) do when it enters the human body?
Then we would talk about that little 70 pound 8 year old girl sitting downrange from the perps; what would such a round do to her, etc....
Bottom line: I’ve just made their witness my best witness!
Interesting: “Also, def would put on 3-5 very expert witnesses who would testify that in such a situation, the ONLY course of action would be to remain seated, silent and sober” while the killing spree constinued. . .(like the Killeen example).
So, you recommend the sit-and-die approach.
I don’t.
Tried by 12 rather than carried by 6.
Cheers.
Nope. CC and OC people are most likely the better trained and capable when it comes to firearms. . .and using your “logic” then the same arguments can be used AGAINST police OC. At any rate, who cares, the choice is simple: sit and die or shoot and fight for your life and the life of another.
I don't know. I visited family in Texas last month, and I had both burgers. In-N-Out and Whataburger are in a dead heat, but I'd choose the latter because I was in Texas. Had I been in California, then maybe In-N-Out.
Any witness is going to tell the jury that 98% of armed robberies end without a shop being fired.
If perps is not shooting, don’t start it. You are NOT legally authorized to intervene. Shoot a bystander who dies and you are guilty of murder or at best manslaughter.
A few years ago, a guy (legal CCW) almost shot two bums he thought were trying to mug a well-dressed man in Manhattan. At the last 1/2 second, he realized he was hearing sirens but bums were not running away.
Hummmm ????
Bums we U/C NYPD. Well dressed man was a very wanted felon.
It’s not sit down and die. It’s sit down, memorize every detail about perps, perhaps follow them out, give 911 a good description of the perps, their get-away vehicle, direction of travel, license # if possible, etc.
I’m not talking about a case of a crazy street shooter emptying AK magazines on the street, but that .00001%
No gun makes you a gunfighter.
Sit down, shut up, live tomorrow.
An ego and a gun are a bad combination.
it does. i believe in Louisiana it carrys the rule of law as does Texas but Texas has a specific ordnance on what and where the sign should be. in Colorado it holds no weight and i just smile when i walk past the signs.
“It’s sit down, memorize every detail about perps, perhaps follow them out, give 911 a good description of the perps, their get-away vehicle, direction of travel, license # if possible, etc.”
Sit and die, no matter how you cut it you are betting your life the thug/shooter will decide if you live or die.
“If perps is not shooting, don’t start it.”
Right. . .fear of your life or life of another? Sit there and wait to be shot? No thank you.
“You are NOT legally authorized to intervene.”
Not leghally obligated but quite justified if you shoot a thug robbing/beating/assaulting someone (yourself included). Fear of your life or life of another thing.
“Shoot a bystander who dies and you are guilty of murder or at best manslaughter.”
Come on. . .Nope. You shooting in defense of your life or the life of another. . .protected.
Cheers.
Any witness is going to tell the jury that 98% of armed robberies end without a shop being fired.
If perps is not shooting, don’t start it. You are NOT legally authorized to intervene. Shoot a bystander who dies and you are guilty of murder or at best manslaughter.
A few years ago, a guy (legal CCW) almost shot two bums he thought were trying to mug a well-dressed man in Manhattan. At the last 1/2 second, he realized he was hearing sirens but bums were not running away.
Hummmm ????
Bums we U/C NYPD. Well dressed man was a very wanted felon.
It’s not sit down and die. It’s sit down, memorize every detail about perps, perhaps follow them out, give 911 a good description of the perps, their get-away vehicle, direction of travel, license # if possible, etc.
I’m not talking about a case of a crazy street shooter emptying AK magazines on the street, but that .00001%
No gun makes you a gunfighter.
Sit down, shut up, live tomorrow.
An ego and a gun are a bad combination.
Over time, as people get used to seeing openly carried guns, they will start to lose reflexive fear of seeing guns. This is not yet that time, and trying to push it will be counter-productive. Incrementalism is the correct tactic. It’s worked for the Left and it will work for us.
I do. Folks who have a permit to carry are much safer to be around than just about any group of folks you care to mention, including police.
Screw them and their policies. There was similar crap around when concealed carry passed. This policy will pass as well. They'll have to post if they don't want me to carry. Any business with a post doesn't get my business.
And place your life in the hands of a criminal to decide if you live or die? No thank you. You maybe but not me.
And why does your position not apply to LEO? They can miss (and do)? They hit bystanders, too.
Never mind.
You can continue to post the place-your-life-in-the-hands-of-a-criminal-so-sit-and-die position, and I can refer to my previous legal justification for the use of deadly force (fear of your life or the life of another). We can go on endlessly but what's the point?
You will always accept the sit-and-die approach and I will never accept being a sheep.
Thanks for the exchange, time to move on.
Please, you are VERY legally wrong. Please DO NOT depend on these opinions without consulting with a lawyer licensed in your jurisdiction.
You have NO authority to start shooting unless you can prove YOU or someone you are in relationship with is in IMMEDIATE MORTAL DANGER or, IN SOME JURISDICTIONS, SHOOTING TO PREVENT A VIOLENT FELONY.
You are not Rambo!
Same applied to all FReepers. 108 is very dangerous advice. Please get PROFESSIONAL LEGAL ADVICE along with your weapon.
My sincere guess is that it is simply the easier starting point. Our laws are so screwy and upside-down, that it's just that way now. The Left jumped on the easier starting point for them, which was concealed carry... back in the day, folks who HID their guns were more suspect than those who openly carried. If you're hiding something, it's for a reason. If you're open about it, you could be trusted. Thus, we placed restrictions on the concealed carry folk... opening the door for the Leftists usual anti-gun march, to protect themselves once they start crushing our liberties. They just never saw a need to get around to the open-carry laws, because it was soon almost universally assumed that you couldn't openly carry... nobody was openly carrying anymore, so who cares? Now that the Progressives have progressed far enough, it is a great start point for us "gun nuts", because it is the least-restricted way to carry, and pointing that out to the world is dramatic these days, and gets a lot of attention.
Unfortunately, with our hyper-feminized safety-at-all-costs culture, I do think that the open-carry folks are more likely to get the open-carry rules quickly and tightly restricted... but they have my hopes and prayers anyway.
You're not exactly correct. You do not need to have any relationship whatsoever to another human being to use lethal force to protect their lives. If I see your loved ones being gang-raped by a group of men with tire irons and baseball bats, I'm going to perforate as many of them as it takes to save their lives, even though I don't know you or them at all.
Vermont gun laws are simple. Buy a gun and carry it concealed. No permit required. Open carry is not necessary.
Really, all witnesses know this personally, and can testify to it under oath? I think you're making some huge assumptions here.
If perps is not shooting, don’t start it. You are NOT legally authorized to intervene. Shoot a bystander who dies and you are guilty of murder or at best manslaughter.
Not correct at all. In most cases, as long as you have a reasonable belief that someone is in imminent danger of lethal harm (which is almost always interpreted to include rape), you may shoot... even if you are wrong. For example, in your example...
A few years ago, a guy (legal CCW) almost shot two bums he thought were trying to mug a well-dressed man in Manhattan. At the last 1/2 second, he realized he was hearing sirens but bums were not running away... Bums we U/C NYPD. Well dressed man was a very wanted felon.
Irrelevant. A mistake of fact does not change the propriety of your decision, in a court of law. If you reasonably believed that the "bums" were about to kill the "wealthy man", you can shoot.
(Now, shooting a cop can and almost certainly will have extremely negative consequences for you very very quickly, and long before you get to see a judge to make your case... but in the textbook setting, you CAN still shoot, even if they are cops... as long as you had no reason to believe that they were, and you had a reasonable belief that they were about to unjustly kill the man.)
It’s not sit down and die. It’s sit down, memorize every detail about perps, perhaps follow them out, give 911 a good description of the perps, their get-away vehicle, direction of travel, license # if possible, etc.
Or you can stand by and take videos with your phone while a group of thugs murder an elderly woman on a bus. That's your prerogative. Cowards abound today, and are under no obligation to help others (which I also support... mandatory help laws are a terrible idea, too). However, SOME who are motivated to act will not sit idly by and memorize facts to be good witnesses later on. Informing them of the right circumstances for them to act is the proper thing for us to do here. Reasonable belief... imminent threat... lethal harm... that's it.
Totally wrong!!!!
How do you know, in the dark light of the alley, if some of the people you shoot were not other bystanders already trying to stop the rape victim and arming themselves with the tools at hand, such as tire irons, baseball bats, etc?
How do you know the woman isn’t making a false rape accusation?
If you are 1% wrong, you have killed an innocent person and you are going “away” for a long time.
I don’t know which would be worse if I shot someone in the circumstances you describe, the sentence or my conscience.
The below is a legal disclaimer I feel I am required to make to protect myself.
“These are vitally important legal matters. Please remember that I am not admitted to the practice of law in your legal jurisdiction. Do not depend on anything said here for legal advice. Get all legal advice from an attorney licensed to practice in your jurisdiction.”
I cannot ethnically have any further comments on this.
Please, with all respect, that is all bar and hunting cabin BS. Your examples are 100% wrong! You must be 100% right, not any “suspicion” or “belief,” or you hang.
Please get proper legal advice before you carry in public again.
It’s official. Taste buds in Texas are messed up!
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