Posted on 05/02/2015 1:35:55 PM PDT by Jacquerie
A couple of prominent conservatives have expressed concern over the possibility of a ‘runaway’ Article V state amendments convention. Such is their anxiety that runaway tyranny from Rome-on-the-Potomac pales in comparison to the possible horrors of the states getting together to relieve their people from oppression. Are these concerns fact based or irrational or somewhere in between?
An important, and likewise extra-congressional vestige of the federal system of 1787, and quite similar to an Article V state amendments convention in its constitutional foundation remains in force today. It is the familiar Electoral College (EC). Like the state amendments convention, the EC is also a specific grant of constitutional authority distinct from congress, courts and presidents. Both the EC and Article V convention are temporary, and neither can be made subservient to any branch of the government. This renders the EC and state amendments convention separate from, and superior to the three branches of government. The state amendments convention process is created by Article V; it is not a component of any of the three branches of government created by the first three articles. The limits to congressional involvement and duties are in Article V. Congress must call a convention upon applications from two thirds of the states, and determine the mode of ratification. That is all.
The EC is also loathed by liberals. Witness the National Popular Vote movement. The EC and state amendments convention processes represent end runs around liberals’ wholly owned government in Washington DC and media. The EC and an Article V convention are federal and therefore anti-democratic, which is why libs despise the EC and are working toward complete nationalization of presidential voting. Libs love democracy. Recall the 17th Amendment which turned ambassadors from the states into three-term, democratic and demagogic congressmen.
The EC and state amendments convention processes are federal remnants of a more perfect union that placed liberty preserving institutions ahead of fuzzy pablum populism, and democracy.
If you oppose a state amendments convention, do you also fear the Electoral College?
The EC is extra-congressional and completely controlled by the states. If the states are so wild and politically insane, why haven’t we had ‘runaway’ sessions of the EC? For whomever the states cast their votes is entirely up to the individual states. They can split their votes between Uniparty candidates or cast votes for Joe Blow down the street. States can modify their statutes such that their legislatures may determine for whom to vote with zero input from their citizens. The EC confab is a one-day event. Isn’t that dangerous? There is no subsequent meeting that requires approval of three fourths of attendees to implement the results. Why haven’t we experienced a runaway Electoral College?
Why hasn’t congress set down the rules the states and EC must follow? Answer: Congress has no more authority to participate in the deliberations of the EC than it does to participate in, or set the rules for an Article V state amendments convention.
No state EC delegation ever ‘ran away’ because the simple fact is that the duties of electors are defined by state statute. Replace the term ‘elector’ with ‘delegate,’ and you have a situation identical to that of an Article V amendments convention.
Delegates will serve their states. They will have no attachment to any statutory authority under the US.
Article V now, while we can.
The power of the media is in decline. MSNBC, CNN and others have had declining viewership year over year for many many years so much so that their financiers and investors are moving to find another formula that will stop them from going under.
You are living in a view bubble of many years back if you think the media is all powerful. Their influence is an illusion that they themselves create. Take for example CNN’s Candy Crowley. Watch here how Ted Cruz eviscerates her while keeping a class act composure:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HxPnjgU1Q68
Today it is not so important that some voters are low information as it is that non-voters are high information.
High information non-voters have been voting at the state level. They withhold their votes at the presidential level because they are disgusted with the liars and corrupt grifters that populate the ranks of presidential candidates. High information non-voters are a groundswell that is large and powerful in the power of Article V.
It is a fact that Romney lost because more than 6 million blue collar conservative voters shunned him because he is a liar. They are not low information, they are high information.
It is a fact that voters registered as Independent comprised 24% of the electorate in 2012 and by 2014 they comprised an astounding 42% of the electorate, a clear substantial majority of which are conservative. They are not low information, they are high information.
It is a fact that 66 of 99 state legislative bodies are controlled by conservatives who have decades of experience with the duplicity of the EPA, gun control initiatives, same-sex marriage advocates, progressive groups funded by Bloomberg, Soros and the like. These conservative state legislators are not low information, they are high information.
It is a fact that if one talks to a state legislator there will be high probability that the state legislator is smarter, more aware, more in tune that any federal counterpart.
It is a fact that liberal national reporters will not venture into the conservative flyover country because they are unable to establish any credibility there. They therefore consign themselves to the New York market and the East Coast echo chambers where they talk to themselves revealing shallowness, foolishness and stupidity. They look down on the farmer and rural folk as somehow lowly, unworldly, backwards and yet they miss completely that the grassroots are wise as serpents and are orders of magnitude more knowledgeable than ever imagined. Let the big mouth small brain downstate New Yorkers continue to underestimate the people of flyover country.
It is the conservative flyover country where the power of Article V is held. A small town in rural Wyoming is more powerful than all of New York City.
Article V is not an article of democracy, it is an article of federalism tied to preserving the Republic. Therefore, it matters not what the leftstream media or what the Oprah ilk are pushing. They are not able to penetrate flyover country. Forty million progressive low information voters prodded by Michele Obama or Hillary Clinton and cheered by the leftstream media can say whatever they want, it won’t matter to less than 70 conservative state delegates who will propose to amend the US Constitution to assert state power.
No media, no Obama, no Clinton, no CNN, no Soros, no Bloomberg, NO ONE will convince conservative state legislators to turn back away from doing what they are doing now that they have the numbers.
Take the following to your all-powerful ‘media’ who you tremble in front of and ask them how they are going to stop the following:
************************************************
AMENDMENT XXVIII
To redress the balance of powers between the federal government and the States and to restore effective suffrage of State Legislatures to Congress, the following amendment is proposed:
************************************************
Section 1.
A Senator in Congress shall be subject to recall by their respective state legislature or by voter referendum in their respective state.
Section 2.
Term limits for Senators in Congress shall be set by vote in their respective state legislatures but in no case shall be set less than twelve years nor more than eighteen years.
Section 3.
Upon a majority vote in three-fifths of state legislatures, specific federal statutes, federal court decisions and executive directives of any form shall be repealed and made void.
************************************************
No large progressive urban demographic can stop the above amendment. They can stop it in their state, but not in the 66 state bodies that are now controlled by conservatives. Soros has tried, and he has failed. Bloomberg has tried and he is failing as local people have woken up to the shysters paid by him to rope them along.
The kind of amendment illustrated above ends the gravy train of the District of Corruption. There will be a lot of McMansions for sale around the Beltway. Smart owners are heading for the exits now.
If such “high information voters” support an Article V convention, then why are they using a hammer to fix a Rolex than isn’t broken?
An Article V convention is only legitimately the tool for when the Constitution is inadequate to the conditions.
However that’s not the problem we face. The problem is the government is deliberately in disregard to the Constitution, but that’s not even really the problem either. It’s far more than that.
The real problem is that those directing our government are no longer our elected representatives. Let that soak in a bit.
Anyone still talking about “voters” and elections has missed implication of what is going on around us each and every day.
Then realize that nearly 100% of those Conservative high information voters have no recognition of how the government is supposed to be functioning, and even if thei did, their amendments do NOTHING at all to cause the government to function properly — Not a one of the proposed amendments.
If 66 of those 99 legislatures(is this like Obama’s 57 States?) are controlled by high information conservatives, then certainly only one of those 66 legislatures would find sufficient backbone and direction to nullify ObamaCare and prohibit federal incursion into the State, but none have done so.
What an Article V Convention does do is corrupt the Constitution, and serve to validate the corruption that will be ongoing and unamended, virtually all the causes unchanged. Those brilliant Conservatives that are supposedly going to be leading the Convention, and leading the States,have not even acted to fixed the States themselves, nor acted to nullify Obamacare!
There is no sort of “power” at all to Article V; it’s just a tool being abused for the wrong purpose, to the detriment of the Constitution. There is no power to the entirety of the Constitution. Where the power resides is with an enlightened and aware people, who then demand their liberty by forcing a government back into its box of enumerated powers.
This focus on Article V only shows the people are neither enlightened, nor aware, nor serious about reclaiming their liberty before it is too late.
“It is a fact that 66 of 99 state legislative bodies are controlled by conservatives who have decades of experience with the duplicity of the EPA, gun control initiatives, same-sex marriage advocates, progressive groups funded by Bloomberg, Soros and the like. These conservative state legislators are not low information, they are high information.”
If we just vote in another… liberal, moderate, or conservative! If we just get control of … Congress, the Executive, or the Courts! If we just pass another… AMENDMENT! That will surely do it! Then they will all comply with the law because we have a shiny, new law! Yeah!
The truth is our Constitution was designed for a moral people; without a moral people it is no more than words on a page. No Amendment will change that. The government no longer follows the Constitution or any other laws. The congress intentionally abdicates their legislative powers to unelected agencies in order to completely bypass their mandated accountability to their citizens. The executive branch not only abdicates its executive powers; it now proudly announces its intent to ignore the laws of this country—up to and including making Treaties without Congressional approval. The Federal Courts have gone beyond mere legislating from the bench to outright advocacy of illegal actions by the administration and the Congress. Working in concert, the Federal Government has completely usurped the Constitution without a shot fired.
Yes, a few Congressmen and an occasional state may raise an issue, but eventually they all comply. The people have no voice. I love how “conservative state legislators,” who continue to feed at the Federal Trough and increase state powers at the expense of their constituents, remain “conservative” in your eyes. Freedom isn’t about sound bites and more so-called “conservative” legislation. It is about restraining the power of the leviathan regardless of the cost.
Tell me, oh high-information voter or non-voter, where has that happened? Which of the 66, or 666, legislatures will lead us to the shining city on the hill?
> “If such “high information voters” support an Article V convention, then why are they using a hammer to fix a Rolex than isn’t broken?”
Bad analogy; it’s not a Rolex and it’s not a hammer. It’s the Constitution and it’s the States. And the Constitution is not ‘broken’, it’s imbalanced. The 17th Amendment is the cause of the imbalance. It took 100 years for people to wake up to just how badly unbalanced things have become. Now is the time to correct that imbalance and Congress will never do it themselves because they profit from the imbalance. The Founders left the States Article V when Congress was too vested in the status quo.
Here is an illustration of the power that States can use through Article V.
************************************************
AMENDMENT XXVIII
To redress the balance of powers between the federal government and the States and to restore effective suffrage of State Legislatures to Congress, the following amendment is proposed:
************************************************
Section 1.
A Senator in Congress shall be subject to recall by their respective state legislature or by voter referendum in their respective state.
Section 2.
Term limits for Senators in Congress shall be set by vote in their respective state legislatures but in no case shall be set less than twelve years nor more than eighteen years.
Section 3.
Upon a majority vote in three-fifths of state legislatures, specific federal statutes, federal court decisions and executive directives of any form shall be repealed and made void.
************************************************
> “An Article V convention is only legitimately the tool for when the Constitution is inadequate to the conditions.”
The Constitution grants Article V authority to Congress to propose amendments. In this case Congress has no compulsion to amend to correct the imbalance caused by the 17th Amendment. But the States have cause.
> “However that’s not the problem we face. The problem is the government is deliberately in disregard to the Constitution, but that’s not even really the problem either. It’s far more than that.”
The federal government won’t be able to “disregard” the illustrated example Amendment 28 above.
> “The real problem is that those directing our government are no longer our elected representatives. Let that soak in a bit.”
It doesn’t need to “soak in”. I have been writing about that for years. The recourse is not elections; let that “soak in”. The recourse is the rely on the 7,398 representatives and senators that make up state governments. These representatives and senators make up 99 state legislative bodies and conservatives control 66 of those 99. And when these representatives and senators are called, it’s often a visit or an invitation to come over for dinner. That’s how close they are to the people.
> “Anyone still talking about “voters” and elections has missed implication of what is going on around us each and every day.”
“Then realize that nearly 100% of those Conservative high information voters have no recognition of how the government is supposed to be functioning, and even if thei did, their amendments do NOTHING at all to cause the government to function properly — Not a one of the proposed amendments.”
Not true at all. Amendment 28 above functions because it does not need the federal government or anything to enforce. That amendment can be proposed, ratified and enforced by States alone. Congress has merely an administrative secretarial role and nothing more. If Congress tries to impede or stop the States from amending the US Constitution as above, they will fail and turn the people against them even more.
> “If 66 of those 99 legislatures(is this like Obama’s 57 States?) are controlled by high information conservatives, then certainly only one of those 66 legislatures would find sufficient backbone and direction to nullify ObamaCare and prohibit federal incursion into the State, but none have done so.”
It’s not 99 ‘legislatures’, it’s 99 legislative bodies comprising state representatives and state senators. Nebraska is different in that it is bicameral having only one legislative body. Therefore, it is not 100 state legislative bodies, it is 99.
Nullification is a ‘theory’ with no clear and direct constitutional authority. Article V is clear and direct in the original Constitution. The Constitution’s Supremacy Clause would strike any credible attempt by States to nullify anything, hence the States will not even try. But Article V is clear authority and was made so by the Founders especially George Mason of Virginia for the precise purpose to serve as a check on an out of control federal government which is what we have today.
> “What an Article V Convention does do is corrupt the Constitution, and serve to validate the corruption that will be ongoing and unamended, virtually all the causes unchanged. Those brilliant Conservatives that are supposedly going to be leading the Convention, and leading the States,have not even acted to fixed the States themselves, nor acted to nullify Obamacare!
You couldn’t be more wrong on all these shallow assertions. For example, 36 States have failed to set up Obamacare exchanges in defiance of Obama’s master plan to ram his agenda of socialism down the throats of Americans.
> “There is no sort of “power” at all to Article V; it’s just a tool being abused for the wrong purpose, to the detriment of the Constitution. There is no power to the entirety of the Constitution. Where the power resides is with an enlightened and aware people, who then demand their liberty by forcing a government back into its box of enumerated powers.”
Well, if there’s no power to Article V, why are you even here flailing on and on about it?
> “This focus on Article V only shows the people are neither enlightened, nor aware, nor serious about reclaiming their liberty before it is too late.”
Is that why the Article V movement is growing at breakneck speed since Mark Levin’s speech before ALEC last December 2014?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tdZuV8JnvvA
> “If such “high information voters” support an Article V convention, then why are they using a hammer to fix a Rolex than isn’t broken?”The Constitution is a Rolex, based on fine balances between the various branches of government, the people, and the States. Article V is a hammer to mold new additions to the Constitution, or to make an entirely new Constitution. The Constitution itself is operating fine, it is just being used and abused by terms that were never intended and not supported by that "Rolex's" terms of operation.
Bad analogy; it’s not a Rolex and it’s not a hammer. It’s the Constitution and it’s the States. And the Constitution is not ‘broken’, it’s imbalanced. The 17th Amendment is the cause of the imbalance. It took 100 years for people to wake up to just how badly unbalanced things have become. Now is the time to correct that imbalance and Congress will never do it themselves because they profit from the imbalance. The Founders left the States Article V when Congress was too vested in the status quo.
> “An Article V convention is only legitimately the tool for when the Constitution is inadequate to the conditions.”
The Constitution grants Article V authority to Congress to propose amendments. In this case Congress has no compulsion to amend to correct the imbalance caused by the 17th Amendment. But the States have cause.
> “However that’s not the problem we face. The problem is the government is deliberately in disregard to the Constitution, but that’s not even really the problem either. It’s far more than that.”Your proposed Amendment 28 to repeal the 17th Amendment and put limits on Congress, might become a hindrance, if passed, but it is unlikely to pass given the heavy progressive involvement in amending the Constitution, and the lack of interest from the allegedly alert Conservative interests in pushing for the 17th's repeal.The federal government won’t be able to “disregard” the illustrated example Amendment 28 above.
The real bad news is that those representatives and senators that make up the state governments are no more immune from the corruption than are those existing representatives in the federal government, with the root of the corruption being the people themselves. Contrary to the fairy tale being promoted, the States are not some bastions of ethic,principle and enlightenment, but rather only habited by longstanding addicts to federal corruption and handout.> “The real problem is that those directing our government are no longer our elected representatives. Let that soak in a bit.”
It doesn’t need to “soak in”. I have been writing about that for years. The recourse is not elections; let that “soak in”. The recourse is the rely on the 7,398 representatives and senators that make up state governments. These representatives and senators make up 99 state legislative bodies and conservatives control 66 of those 99. And when these representatives and senators are called, it’s often a visit or an invitation to come over for dinner. That’s how close they are to the people.
Nullification is a ‘theory’ with no clear and direct constitutional authority. Article V is clear and direct in the original Constitution. The Constitution’s Supremacy Clause would strike any credible attempt by States to nullify anything, hence the States will not even try. But Article V is clear authority and was made so by the Founders especially George Mason of Virginia for the precise purpose to serve as a check on an out of control federal government which is what we have today.Nonsense.. Nullification is quite clearly indicated by the State's own sovereign authority. Everything else within the Constitution presumes that government recognizes and operates by the terms set forth in the Constitution, inclusive of Article V. The Constitution does not offer direct indication of what to do when that Constitution's own terms are deliberately disregarded.
The moment failure to act in one small arena, while still being complicit in all the federal government's other associated actions, is offered as an example of State morality, direction and authorty, even pretending it exhibits some sort of sovereignty, is the day when those making the claim should recognize that an Article V convention is entirely inadequate.> “What an Article V Convention does do is corrupt the Constitution, and serve to validate the corruption that will be ongoing and unamended, virtually all the causes unchanged. Those brilliant Conservatives that are supposedly going to be leading the Convention, and leading the States,have not even acted to fixed the States themselves, nor acted to nullify Obamacare!
You couldn’t be more wrong on all these shallow assertions. For example, 36 States have failed to set up Obamacare exchanges in defiance of Obama’s master plan to ram his agenda of socialism down the throats of Americans.
> “There is no sort of “power” at all to Article V; it’s just a tool being abused for the wrong purpose, to the detriment of the Constitution. There is no power to the entirety of the Constitution. Where the power resides is with an enlightened and aware people, who then demand their liberty by forcing a government back into its box of enumerated powers.”
Well, if there’s no power to Article V, why are you even here flailing on and on about it?
THere's no power to Article V; it is merely a method, and in that, a tool. However what is inherent to the improper use of that Article V hammer, for the wrong reasons, and at the wrong time, is the overthrow of our form of government and the discard of our unalienable individual rights being the cornerstone of that form of government.
I don't flail. I am a surgeon excising malarkey.
Is that why the Article V movement is growing at breakneck speed since Mark Levin’s speech before ALEC last December 2014? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tdZuV8JnvvAMark Levin's speech at ALEC last year was a disturbing display of Levin's dishonesty that should dishearten, disillusion and entirely alienate everyone who once respected Levin for his analytical skills and objective representations.
Here is the factial scorecard attained since late last year:
Just this year, we filed the Convention of States application in 34 state legislatures. Of those 34 states, 19 have passed initial committee votes already, after filing.
Additionally, 3 state Senate chambers and 8 House chambers have moved from Committee to passing the application via their respective floor votes thus far.
All of this progress builds on the valiant efforts of activists in Georgia, Alaska, Florida, and just recently Alabama who have all passed the COS application in both houses.
I think you are straying into conspiracy theory here.
From the Federalist #85, by Alexander Hamilton:
The intrinsic difficulty of governing THIRTEEN STATES at any rate, independent of calculations upon an ordinary degree of public spirit and integrity, will, in my opinion constantly impose on the national rulers the necessity of a spirit of accommodation to the reasonable expectations of their constituents. But there is yet a further consideration, which proves beyond the possibility of a doubt, that the observation is futile. It is this that the national rulers, whenever nine States concur, will have no option upon the subject. By the fifth article of the plan, the Congres will be obliged “on the application of the legislatures of two thirds of the States [which at present amount to nine], to call a convention for proposing amendments, which shall be valid, to all intents and purposes, as part of the Constitution, when ratified by the legislatures of three fourths of the States, or by conventions in three fourths thereof.” The words of this article are peremptory. The Congress “shall call a convention.” Nothing in this particular is left to the discretion of that body. And of consequence, all the declamation about the disinclination to a change vanishes in air. Nor however difficult it may be supposed to unite two thirds or three fourths of the State legislatures, in amendments which may affect local interests, can there be any room to apprehend any such difficulty in a union on points which are merely relative to the general liberty or security of the people. We may safely rely on the disposition of the State legislatures to erect barriers against the encroachments of the national authority.
Hamilton writes that the threat of states calling an Article V convention is intended as a check on a federal government that ignores their interests.
Hamilton writes that Article V give no discretion to Congress, other than that they are obligated to call the Convention. It is clear from the context of Federalist #85 that the convention is for the states to control the federal government, not for the federal government to coopt the convention to hurt the states.
-PJ
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