Posted on 03/31/2015 2:13:21 AM PDT by SoFloFreeper
“they are scholars and only scholars”
The same can be said of the men who have taught you, but since I do not know who your teachers are, I trust the Westminster scholars more than your teachers.
“I’ve spelled out a completely compelling and rational argument for my beliefs ...” And I repeat, delusions of grandeur and Magic Thinking are not tools of reality.
I suspect you'll see LOTS of folks!!
Daniel 12:2
Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.
This surely describes mine own heart.
Thank GOD that His blood covers it!
This; too; sounds like me.
And yet; I'm NOT a deluded Mormon.
Yes, Brother, me also. And thanks be to The Lord Christ ... not to the Jim Caveazel or Joe Smith mormon version.
God, Moses, the Prophets, Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Peter, James, Paul, Jesus Christ, & c. The Bible, plainly read, disproves the Westminster 100.
Mormon scripture, plainly read, disproves the theology taught by SLC.
Trinity: found in the Book of MORMON ----------- rejected in the Doctrines and Covenants
Now Zeezrom said: Is there more than one God? And he answered, No. (Alma 11:28-29) ...and be arraigned before the bar of Christ the Son, and God the Father, and the Holy Spirit, which is one Eternal God, to be judged according to their works, whether they be good or whether they be evil. (Alma 11:44) ...doctrine of Christ, and the only and true doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, which is one God, without end. Amen. (2 Nephi 31:21) ...praises with the choirs above, unto the Father, and unto the Son, and unto the Holy Ghost, which are one God, in a state of happiness which hath no end. (Mormon 7:7) ...power of God; and the Son, because of the flesh; thus becoming the Father and Son--And they are one God, yea, the very Eternal Father of heaven and of earth. And thus the flesh becoming subject to the Spirit, or the Son to the Father, being one God, (Mosiah 15:3-5) ...of Jared, that whoso should possess this land of promise, from that time henceforth and forever, should serve him, the true and only God, or they should be swept off when the fulness of his wrath should come upon them. (Ether 2:8) According to that which was ordained in the midst of the Council of the Eternal God of all other gods before this world was, that should be reserved unto the finishing and the end thereof, when every man shall enter into his eternal presence and into his immortal rest. (Section 121:32) And again, verily I say unto you, if a man marry a wife, and make a covenant with her for time and for all eternity, if that covenant is not by me or by my word, which is my law, and is not sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, through him whom I have anointed and appointed unto this power, then it is not valid neither of force when they are out of the world, because they are not joined by me, saith the Lord, neither by my word; when they are out of the world it cannot be received there, because the angels and the gods are appointed there, by whom they cannot pass; they cannot, therefore, inherit my glory; for my house is a house of order, saith the Lord God. And again, verily I say unto you, if a man marry a wife by my word, which is my law, and by the new and everlasting covenant, and it is sealed unto them by the Holy Spirit of promise, by him who is anointed, unto whom I have appointed this power and the keys of this priesthood; and it shall be said unto them--Ye shall come forth in the first resurrection; and if it be after the first resurrection, in the next resurrection; and shall inherit thrones, kingdoms, principalities, and powers, dominions, all heights and depths--then shall it be written in the Lamb's Book of Life, that he shall commit no murder whereby to shed innocent blood, and if ye abide in my covenant, and commit no murder whereby to shed innocent blood, it shall be done unto them in all things whatsoever my servant hath put upon them, in time, and through all eternity; and shall be of full force when they are out of the world; and they shall pass by the angels, and the gods, which are set there, to their exaltation and glory in all things, as hath been sealed upon their heads, which glory shall be a fulness and a continuation of the seeds forever and ever. Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from everlasting to everlasting, because they continue; then shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto them. Then shall they be gods, because they have all power, and the angels are subject unto them. (Section 132:18-20) Abraham received concubines, and they bore him children; and it was accounted unto him for righteousness, because they were given unto him, and he abode in my law; as Isaac also and Jacob did none other things than that which they were commanded; and because they did none other things than that which they were commanded, they have entered into their exaltation, according to the promises, and sit upon thrones, and are not angels but are gods. (Section 132:37)
"Behold, I am Jesus Christ the Son of God. I created the heavens and the earth, and all things that in them are. I was with the Father from the beginning. I am in the Father, and the Father in me; and in me hath the Father glorified his name." (3 Nephi 9:15)
"And again the Lord called others, and said unto them likewise; and he gave unto them power to baptize. And he said unto them: On this wise shall ye baptize; and there shall be no disputations among you. Verily I say unto you, that whoso repenteth of his sins through your words and desireth to be baptized in my name, on this wise shall ye baptize them--Behold, ye shall go down and stand in the water, and in my name shall ye baptize them. And now behold, these are the words which ye shall say, calling them by name, saying: Having authority given me of Jesus Christ, I baptize you in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. Amen. And then shall ye immerse them in the water, and come forth again out of the water. And after this manner shall ye baptize in my name; for behold, verily I say unto you, that the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Ghost are one; and I am in the Father, and the Father in me, and the Father and I are one...And thus will the Father bear record of me, and the Holy Ghost will bear record unto him of the Father and me; for the Father, and I, and the Holy Ghost are one." (3 Nephi 11:22-27, 36)
You invited me to refute the Westminster Confession...
http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Confession_of_Faith_of_the_Assembly_of_Divines_at_Westminster
Joseph Smith parsed the Bible and added passages he did agree with.
Fair enough. Are you a member of the LDS church? If not, what church do you attend?
I think that 3 weeks should have given him enough time to formulate an answer...
So you discovered this by reading the Bible alone, and no man taught you? I find this quite suspect. Also, you refuse to say where you worship.
I refuse to discuss this any more with a person who cannot be honest about his theological beliefs.
Please do not respond to me again.
“If practiced continually change the natural man into something God can make divine.” IF God’s Life is in your human spirit, in the person of the Holy Spirit, the character of God will shine out from the soul of man. BUT if you try to behave like the character of God by your own bootstraps, you will fail. That is where Mormonism fails to comprehend the truth of Salvation in Jesus Christ. You cannot earn what only God can accomplish, and He did it through Jesus Christ and makes it open to you in this life by the power of His Holy Spirit, not by the size of your bootstraps. After all that you can do will fail to reach the character of God in you, but thanks be to God, Hehas Grace, to offer Himself in the person of Jesus for our transformation by His presence in us, the hope of Glory.
So I’ve laid bare before you the words of the Bible and the reasons for why I reject the Trinity. You cannot discuss ideas without labeling them first?
How about Biblical Non-Trinitarianism?
Please, just stop. I’m not interested in your prevarications.
Excellent. That’s been the focus of God from the beginning:
“and be holy, for I am holy” The Great I AM is demanding we be ‘holy’ aka godlike.
http://biblehub.com/leviticus/11-44.htm
Then Peter takes this concept and reiterates it. Therefore it’s obviously part of the Gospel message and an idea for Christians in our day:
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http://biblehub.com/1_peter/1-16.htm
13Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ; 14As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance: 15But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; 16Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.
17And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man’s work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear: 18Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; 19But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: 20Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, 21Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.
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Now perhaps many reject or choose to ignore the words of Peter due to his close association with the Catholic Church. But then comes Paul and he doubles down on this:
http://biblehub.com/kjv/hebrews/12.htm#14
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14Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord: 15Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled; 16Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright. 17For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.
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There is a lot here:
1. Peter’s statement using the OT as a reference is in the future imperative - ye shall be holy, for I am holy
2. The verse previous reads: “...but like the Holy One who called you, be holy yourselves also in all your behavior”
So the expectation isn’t some post-death occurance, but something the saints are expected to practice now, but how?
3. Paul explains it in a word: diligence. He contrasts the story with Esau which is very telling. Esau was a materialist who lost the birthright for pottage.
4. But here’s the kicker from Paul: “Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord”
Without holiness we cannot see the Lord? If the expectation is for holiness now in our lives, then salvation must be a process as opposed to an event.
Take a look at Rev. 12:10-12. John discusses the War in Heaven as won by this method:
10Then I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, “Now the salvation, and the power, and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren has been thrown down, he who accuses them before our God day and night. 11”And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their testimony, and they did not love their life even when faced with death. 12”For this reason, rejoice, O heavens and you who dwell in them. Woe to the earth and the sea, because the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, knowing that he has only a short time.”
This occurs prior to Adam and Eve, no?
1. Kingdom of our God
2. the authority of his Christ
3. Look at verse 11: “And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their testimony, and they did not love their life even when faced with death.”
This is prior to Christ’s earthly life, so how can the ‘blood of the lamb’ have overcome the Devil?
More critical who is ‘they’? The they that used the word of their testimony to overcome Satan. The they who didn’t love their life even when faced with death?
The Devil was cast down when?
It’s something totally missing in Trinitarian Christendom.
Indeed, dearest sister in Christ, I do.
I find the Hebrew concepts of nephesh–ruach–neshama–ruach Elohim amazingly insightful into the problems of “extra”-dimensional modes of Time — i.e., modes “beyond” the three of space and one of time that constitute the 4D space-time continuum as envisioned by state-of-the-art modern natural science, most notably in physics.
In my meditation:
(1) The nephesh pertains to all living beings subsisting at the sub-human level, biological and botanical. It seems they, too, have some relatively limited type of awareness, or proto-consciousness. What they absolutely lack is the ability to reason, and the ability to act (to will outcomes) independently of their “natural program.” (For lack of a better term.)
(2) It seems to me that Ruach refers to the “full complement” of endowed capabilities possessed by the “natural man”: That is, superadded to the physical/biological basis of the human individual is “the self-will or free will peculiar to man (abstraction, anticipation, intention, etc. — by Jewish tradition, the pivot wherein a man decides to be Godly minded or earthy minded" [this statement anticipates (3), below].
(3) Neshama refers to the state of consciousness of a man who “pivots” toward the Godly-minded. According to Holy Scripture, God knows His neshama from the very foundation of the world: They are His own sons. They are those who, while presently existing in the flesh, through the power of the Holy Spirit, recognize that they are not “reducible to flesh.” That they live, not only in the present world temporally; but also eternally in a realm “beyond” 4D existence and experience.
(4) Ruach Elohim — the indwelling Holy Spirit that informs receptive souls (i.e., those with the “ears to hear”) — is the Presence in whose light the man making the next “pivot,” from (3) to (4), understands himself to be “presently existing in the ‘beyond’ while still in the flesh.”
It seems to me it is fairly obvious that the reconciliation of statements (1) through (4) cannot be effected on the basis of our “normal” understanding of Time, which in science is currently epitomized by Einstein’s reconciliation of 3S + 1T as the integrated spacetime in which the Universe unfolds. Einstein’s key insight was a huge improvement over the Newtonian concept that events in 3S create the 1T as they evolve (on this view, more or less in irreversible, sequential, linear time, which is easy to measure). But still, it seems to me even Einstein’s 4D model of integrated spacetime can only be validated by events in the directly observable Universe. It also seems clear to me that the consciousness of the “observer” is not even in the same picture as the observational field being observed, but must issue from some temporal order “beyond” or outside of it.
Plus I note a certain categorical upgrade from (1) to (2): The missing element at (1) is mind and will, which “suddenly appears” at (2). I cannot find any natural reason why this “upgrade” should occur in nature. But it did. It introduced a radically different quality into the evolution of the natural world that Darwin’s theory simply cannot account for; i.e., on the basis of the instinct for survival, on the basis of natural selection of more or less accidental mutations, etc.
The point is, if you’re searching for answers to this paradox in 4D “natural history,” according to the current methods of biology alone, you will look forever and find nothing to justify what can only be an ultimately fruitless search under the accepted scientific methodological conditions….
The “upgrade” from (2) to (3) seemingly has no “natural” justification. But people do it all the time, as the Spirit moves them; so we must regard its effects as empirically factual.
In other words, the upgrade from (3) to (4) is totally “unnatural.” That doesn’t mean it does not occur.
The upgrade from (3) to (4) is entirely a spiritual development. And God knows how much resistance to this idea is rife nowadays in the natural world of his Creation.
Notwithstanding, where, exactly, does a “spiritual development” find its place in 4D spacetime?
Answer: It doesn’t. That to me is the basic argument in favor of the idea that the possibilities of Time are not exhausted by what can be determined by human observers concentrating only on the physical, that is to say directly “measurable” aspects of the Reality in which we are not only “observers,” but also direct parts and participants….
In conclusion, I would argue that “time” is not as “simple” as it looks. Rather, it has the character of multiple orders functioning simultaneously, in a sort of “nested” order.
Each order is “field-like,” that is to say universal….
By my count, there was an upgrading in the understanding of time with each “step-up” as indicated above, from (1) to (2), from (2) to (3), from (3) to (4). By my count, that adds two additional temporal orders, or temporal categories, to the 4D model that describes (1).
Maybe the superstring theorists would warm to this idea!!!
Thank you ever so much, dearest sister in Christ, for your beautiful, amazingly thought-provoking meditation/testimony!
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