Posted on 04/17/2014 11:35:37 AM PDT by SkyPilot
U2 frontman Bono talks about his faith and answers the question "Who is Jesus?" in the video below. Click play to watch.
Link Here with Video (2 mins 46 secs)
(Excerpt) Read more at charismanews.com ...
“I picked the user name to remind myself to be polite. It’s about manners.”
Heh....I like your sarcasm better. You attempts at “politeness” make you come off like the “church lady” of the old Saturday Night Live skits. “never mind...” Ironic really!
>> So, an arrogant, leftist who makes lousy music is a believer?
Arrogant Leftists are not Christian.
It is the Holy Spirit that takes our hand:
"May you be strengthened with all power, according to his glorious might, for all endurance and patience with joy, giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified you to share in the inheritance of the saints in light."
Colossians 1:11-12
God does not care for "celebrity." To Him, the poor old woman in Manila who gives away her own last meal, or the young man about to be murdered for his Christian faith in Syria are the real superstars.
However, we are all given gifts - spiritual and otherwise. Moreover, God puts us all in certain positions in life. Think back to many instances in your life where you were amazed at the convergence of events, and you though "coincidence?" I have. Opportunities are set by God. Bono is a very famous man, and he confessed that Christ is the Son of God.
Again, that encourages me. I believe he has been redeemed for some time now, but the Bible tells us the heavens themselves rejoice at every believer:
"In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." Luke 15:10
Therefore, we should delight also.
Your responses in post 245 are surprising, coming from an English teacher, as you are clearly making what are at best very weak inferences based on a very cynical reading of the biblical text. Christ is “materialist,” “dismissive,” “arrogant.” These absurdities are not derived by any careful reading of the text, but from a mind unwilling to engage in any serious consideration of the text. You enter it disbelieving—but then are not willing to suspend your disbelief to give it a fair reading so that when you return to discuss the text, you cherry pick a word here, a phrase there that, by themselves, make the case you want (though do not make any case at all.) I daresay you would not allow your own students to get away with this in your English classroom, or are you one of those teachers, so common today, who will allow a student to believe in whatever interpretation they so choose to come up with, regardless of its (to use your own word) “plausibility.” What you’ve posited in post 245 is NOT a plausible, not even a possible conclusion to draw, given the entirety of the biblical text. Your conclusions are, in fact, laughable—little fragments and pieces pushed together by a mind unwilling to engage in a serious consideration of the topic. A good English teacher would never allow her students to get away with this kind of superficial consideration of a text, but would, instead, prod them to go back and see what they’ve missed. Well, you miss much in your reading of the bible.
Earlier, I posted the scriptural reason for this:
1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
This verse describes your exact view of the scriptures (that they are foolishness) and the reason for that view (you lack spiritual discernment). God reveals Himself to the willing heart (Jer 29:13 And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart.) He does not respond so to the heart of unbelief (read Proverbs 1). If you go back in the bible, you can read all the times folks tried to trap Christ, trick Christ, catch Christ in some conundrum similar to what you’ve done here. Each time, it was HE and not they whose scriptural position held (as it must - He IS the Word of God). The point being, yours is an old practice, plied by those unwilling to enter into a serious discussion with Christ due to an unwilling heart.
Perhaps you would do well to ask yourself what the real reason is that Christ/the bible so offends you. As a cynic, an unbeliever, you sure have spent an awful lot of time here (and at other times - we’ve had a lengthy discussion about the Bible before) challenging the veracity of scripture, the authenticity of Christ.) For some reason, your heart drives you to (and not from) these discussions - why? Why is it so necessary for you to debunk Christ here at FR when there are so many other, and, dare I say, easier, targets (Obama, Reid, BLM, etc.) Why would you give half your day (or however much time you spent yesterday) to discussing/refuting that which you have no interest in?
It might be worth asking yourself that question....
No; you did not...
Sounds that way, but Jesus did NOT indicate that; did He.
No WONDER the people were aggravated that HE was NOT leading a rebellion and wanted Him killed.
At LEAST Barabbas was a rabble rouser!
Much like America today; they expect a POLITICAL solution to a SPIRITUAL problem.
If one pokes a dog with a SHARP stick; he'll try to bite you quite quickly.
Use a dull one and you can aggravate him MUCH longer before he reacts.
Thank you for your kind replies. They are very much appreciated.
I hope you all have a blessed Resurrection Day.
Warm Regards,
SC
A bit too esoteric for me...
I was not trying to be cutting (probably was, though). I was trying to get at the truer reasons for the Lady’s a) weak arguments and b) real motives in posing them.
Okay, good, here. What verses in the OT or Torah describe this Day of First Fruits and are there any verses that make such a specific prediction about a new order of mankind who will be led by the Messiah? THAT is what I'm after.
It was at Pentecost that God sent a new kind of Torah that God writes on people’s hearts...that changes them from the inside out.
Good, this is more specific. Is this at Mt Sinai? Do you see what I am after? Can you tell me what verses say anything about a Messiah at this point?
What I am asking for is very specific. I want to know what prophecies you feel Jesus fulfilled. I want books, chapters, and verses, not vague story-telling.
Why would I suspend disbelief? I'm not reading it to be convinced of something magical, I'm reading it trying to figure out what may have actually happened. Why would Judas betray Jesus when he at first loved and followed him? Why does that sort of thing happen? Well, usually it's because the follower has become disillusioned. Why would Judas become disillusioned? Use what you know: what USUALLY happens when idealistic people follow a charismatic leader? The leader starts out idealistic himself and then gradually, as he becomes more successful and popular, is corrupted by his own success. This is a pattern of human behavior that is so predictable as to be nearly unavoidable. If this story were anyone other than Jesus, you'd see it too, and the story of the expensive oil is very telling, as is Jesus' initial unwillingness to deal with a non-Jew, followed by his treatment of her which is very different from his reaction to Jews in need of help. With them, he goes to their house, lays his hands on them, etc. With her, he says "Go home, your daughter is healed." And of course, the author then claims that she was, but there is no proof.
God reveals Himself to the willing heart (Jer 29:13 And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart.) He does not respond so to the heart of unbelief (read Proverbs 1).
Rather like Nancy Pelosi's budget. You have to accept it to see what's in it.
If you go back in the bible, you can read all the times folks tried to trap Christ, trick Christ, catch Christ in some conundrum ... Perhaps you would do well to ask yourself what the real reason is that Christ/the bible so offends you.
There's no conundrum and he doesn't offend me. As far as I can tell, the real Jesus didn't have anything to do with me. He was a Jewish man trying to unite the Jewish people to throw off Roman rule, and he was killed by his political enemies. He means no more to me personally than Netanyahu, because I'm not Jewish, I don't live in the Middle East, and it's 2000 years later.
As for how much time I spent here yesterday, I'm on vacation, and sometimes if I get bored I go online and get embroiled in some discussion because I enjoy that.
Yes, I did. I had asked why Jesus didn't admit to Pilates that he was the Son of God, you posted those verses from John where Jesus says God is his father, and I responded that those verses are not from his trial but from an earlier scene talking to other Jews. Look at verses 22 and 23. That's not the trial. Pilates is not there.
Sounds that way, but Jesus did NOT indicate that; did He. No WONDER the people were aggravated that HE was NOT leading a rebellion and wanted Him killed.
That's right! Now you are catching on! They expected him to do something very specific! Very good!!
Now here's the million dollar question: Why were they expecting something?
I will have to be quick with this post. It took all of two seconds to find a list of some of the prophecies concerning Yeshua as Savior to the Gentiles. You could’ve done this for yourself. The problem you give people in trying to answer your question is that they are pretty much put in the position of having to quote the entire Bible for you. Then, you will have to ask them to explain all of it you. ALL OF IT IS WRITTEN OF HIM.
Is that what you’re asking people to do? Even if that were possible, you still have a problem: You have to change your attitude to understand His Word. You won’t get a thing by going to Scripture to try to find stones to throw at other people.
I think you know very well that’s the problem. If you don’t, then you’ve either lied about reading the Bible or didn’t understand anything of it if you did read it. Which is it?
Either way, have a go at the ones listed and satisfy yourself. But know that you must put your pride down before you are going to understand anything. That’s the first step. If you can’t do that, don’t waste your time or the time of anyone else, because there are people sincerely looking for help in the The Word and need other peoples’ time.
Perhaps you will read them and learn from Him. The One Who suffered and died to save YOU. Yes, YOU.
The prophecies also witness that the main role of the Messiah will be to defeat the devil and his powers (Gen. 3:15; Num. 24:17), redeem people from sin and to heal their physical and spiritual illnesses (Ps. 40; Is. 35:5-7, 42:1-12, 50:4 and the 53rd chapter and 61:1-3; Zach. 3:8-9) and to reconcile them with God (Gen. 49:10; Jer. 23:5 and 31:34; Ez. 36:24-27; Dan. 9:24-27; Zach. 13:1); that He will sanctify the faithful (Zach. 6:12), will establish a New Covenant in place of the old (Is. 42:2, 55:3 and 59:20-21; Dan. 9:24-27), and that this covenant will be for eternity (Jer. 31:31; Is. 55:3). The prophets predicted the calling of the Gentiles to the Kingdom of the Messiah (Ps. 72:10; Is. 11:1-11, 43:16-28, 49:6 and 65:1-3), the spreading of faith, beginning with Jerusalem (Is. 2:2), that His spiritual blessings will extend to all humanity (Gen. 22:18, Ps. 132:11; Is. 11:1, 42:1-12 and 54:1-5; Ez. 34:23 and 37:24; Amos 9:11-12; Ag. 2:6-7; Zeph. 3:9, Zach. 9:9-11), and the spiritual bliss of the faithful (Is. 12:3).
Prophecies about the Messianic Kingdom are: cleansing from sin (Is. 59:20-21, Jer. 31:31-34, Eze. 36:24-27, Dan. 9:24-27, Zach. 6:12, 13:1), imparting to the people regarding virtue and purity of heart (Jer. 31:33, Eze. 36:27), the conclusion of the New Testament (Is. 55:3, 59:20-21, Jer. 31:31, Eze. 9:24), abundance of blessings (Is. 35:5, 44:3, 55:3, 59:20-21, Joel 2:28-32, Zach. 12:10-13), the calling of the Gentiles (Ps. 22:28, 72:10-17, Is. 2:2, 11:1-10, 42:1-12, 43:16-28, 49:6, 54:12-14, 65:1-3, Dan. 7:13-14, Aggeus, 2:6-7), the propagation of the Church throughout the world (Is. 42:1-12, 43:16-28, 54:12-14), steadfast and unconquerable (Is. 2:2-3, Dan. 2:44, 7:13, Zach. 9:9-11), the abolishment of evil, suffering (Num. 24:17, Is. 11:1-10), the affirmation of joy (Is. 42:1-12, 54:12-14, 60:1-5,61:1-4), resurrection of the flesh (Job 19:26), the abolishment of death (Is. ch 26, 42:1-12, 61:1-4, Zech. 9:9-11, Osee 13:14), knowledge of God (Is. 2:2-3, 11:1-10, Jer. 31:31-34), triumph of truth and justice (Ps. 72:1-17, 110:1-4, Is. 9:6-7, 11:1-10, ch. 26, Jer. 23:5), the glory of the Triumphant Church (Is. chs. 26-27), comparison of the Messianic Kingdom to the mountain (Ps. 2, Is. 2:2-3, 11:1-10, ch. 26, Dan. 2:35).
[Credit: http://www.fatheralexander.org/booklets/english/old_testament_messiah.htm#n16]
Okay, thank you, I’ll look them up.
You are still at it...making weak inferences based on a poor reading of the text. Your musings about Judas and why he would become “disillusioned” and betray Him when he at first loved Him, is a poor reading of the story of Christ. Judas’s “love” was self-serving (as is the love of us all most of the time, if we are honest). His betrayal of Christ is what each and every person has done throughout the ages (”There is none that are righteous, No, not one. There is none that seek after Him.”) Despite having spent time with the Lord, he knew Him not AS Lord, but was thinking more along the lines of...well, of yourself—thinking Christ was there to set up an earthly kingdom right then and there. This was what all His disciples were thinking, hoping expecting (as were all the Jews of Christ’s day—and some of the FR posters of today!). But this was not God’s plan. How could it be! How could He hope to set up a righteous kingdom with such an unrighteous people? How could a holy God set up a kingdom filled with unholiness? He couldn’t. He must first solve the problem of a fallen creation, filled with fallen, sinful men and women. He must figure out a way to make the unrighteous righteous. He did that in His Son. Christ came to impute the righteousness of God to the unrighteous sinner through His death, burial and resurrection. The believer attains a righteous standing before God (not because of himself, but because of Christ). This is the gospel. In Hebrews it says, “So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation,” and that’s when He can and will set up His earthly kingdom - with a righteous, holy people. This is the gospel.
At one point you said, “Use what you know: what USUALLY happens when idealistic people follow a charismatic leader? The leader starts out idealistic himself and then gradually, as he becomes more successful and popular, is corrupted by his own success. This is a pattern of human behavior that is so predictable as to be nearly unavoidable. If this story were anyone other than Jesus, you’d see it too...” This is EXACTLY the point (but you don’t see it). This story IS about Christ, and you think of Him as only an ordinary person. So, He is capable of only ordinary human behavior. But, He is more than that. Much more.
Someone once said, and it is so true, “All error when it comes to scripture can be traced back to low estimations of Christ.”
Gen. 3:15; And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel. (What does this have to do with a Messiah?)
Num. 24:17), He shall pour the water out of his buckets, and his seed shall be in many waters, and his king shall be higher than Agag, and his kingdom shall be exalted. (If you go back 2 verses and read, it seems to be about Jacob, not the Messiah.)
(Ps. 40; ) This is a Psalm of David talking about God, there is no mention of a Messiah. In fact, it says a sacrifice is not necessary, in verse 6.
Is. 35:5-7, Chapters 34 and 35 seem to be about God wreaking vengeance upon any nations that attack Zion and promising to bring them back to safety. There’s nothing about a Messiah, this is just God promising himself to do these things. And he hasn't done it yet, unless you count the Israelis kicking butt in the 7 Days War.
Is. 42:1-12, He’s talking about Israel itself. Look at 41:8, it says “But thou, Israel, art my servant” and all the rest is about the example the Jewish people are to set for non-Jews. God promises to shower blessings on them if they live righteously and set an example for Gentiles. In fact, Isaiah 42:2 He shall not cry, nor lift up, nor cause his voice to be heard in the street... definitely not talking about the Messiah, because causing his voice to be heard in the streets was what Jesus was doing the whole time.
I’ll have to pause here, I’m going out in a bit. But so far, nothing you’ve linked says anything about a Messiah. It’s just promises of God to Israel, or warnings of God to Israel, but there’s nothing that suggests an intermediary of any kind will be used.
What I’m talking about are verses that very specifically predict and describe a MESSIAH. Like the ones I posted in #295, 297, 298…
Jeremiah 33:15 In those days, and at that time, will I cause the Branch of righteousness to grow up unto David; and he shall execute judgment and righteousness in the land. 16 In those days shall Judah be saved, and Jerusalem shall dwell safely:
(Messiah will be descended from David and will keep Jerusalem safe.)
Micah 2:2 But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting. 3 Therefore will he give them up, until the time that she which travaileth hath brought forth: then the remnant of his brethren shall return unto the children of Israel. 4 And he shall stand and feed in the strength of the Lord, in the majesty of the name of the Lord his God; and they shall abide: for now shall he be great unto the ends of the earth. 5 And this man shall be the peace, when the Assyrian shall come into our land: and when he shall tread in our palaces, then shall we raise against him seven shepherds, and eight principal men. 6 And they shall waste the land of Assyria with the sword, and the land of Nimrod in the entrances thereof: thus shall he deliver us from the Assyrian, when he cometh into our land, and when he treadeth within our borders.
(Messiah will be born in Bethlehem and guard them from the Assyrians and other invaders.)
Isaiah 9:6-7 6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: .the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. 7 Of the greatness of his government and peace there will be no end. He will reign on David’s throne and over his kingdom, establishing and upholding it with justice and righteousness from that time on and forever.
(Messiah will actually establish a government and rule.) Specific stuff about the MESSIAH, not God’s general promises about what He himself will do. Specific ways to identify the Messiah.
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, he gave his only begotten son, that whosoever believes on him shall not perish but have ever lasting life.
You’re going to have to start as a child would start, ask God yourself, and start from there.
A larger discussion:
John chapter 1 says that God was the word. It says That this “word” was made flesh and dwelt among us. A Simple logical statement: If God was the word, and Jesus was that flesh the Gospel of John was writing about, then Jesus was God. Even a child of about 6 to 8 can understand that reasoning. Now can you believe it, do you have ears to hear it?...those are questions far above my station and between you and God to answer.
Christ said to the Devil during the time of his temptation: Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God. God IS the word,Jesus IS the Word made flesh, and we live by their words.
The Torah was God’s word written on stone tablets, Moses likened the transgression of the law as death, so the Hebrews were to obey the law...”Why would ye die?” Moses entreated his people.
Jeremiah 30 and 31 speak of a future time for Israel. Chapter 31:31-34 is more pertinent for this conversation because it speaks of God writing his laws directly into people, redirecting their internal operating systems as it were...
Note also verse 34 especially. It was at Pentecost that we saw the beginning fulfillment of this prophecy. Later on Peter had to learn the hard way that even non Jews were invited to Jesus and could take part in this Holy Spirit Baptism...this inculcation of “GOD IS THE WORD” directly into their beings.
31“The days are coming,” declares the Lord,
“when I will make a new covenant
with the people of Israel
and with the people of Judah.
32It will not be like the covenant
I made with their ancestors
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt,
because they broke my covenant,
though I was a husband tod them,e ”
declares the Lord.
33“This is the covenant I will make with the people of Israel
after that time,” declares the Lord.
“I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
34No longer will they teach their neighbor,
or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest,”
declares the Lord.
“For I will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins no more.”
EXACTLY!! That is what I have been saying all along. They thought he was there to fulfill Messianic prophecy. Why did they think that?
I have to go out. I'll be back later.
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