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Coming to Railroads soon: Natural gas locomotives
Jacksonville Business Journal ^ | Oct 8, 2013 | Carole Hawkins

Posted on 10/09/2013 7:18:36 AM PDT by thackney

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To: mountainlion

In summary, this rule sets out engine standards and emission test procedures (including not-to-exceed requirements) for new nonroad diesel engines, and sulfur control requirements for diesel fuel used in land-based nonroad, locomotive, and marine engines (NRLM fuel).

Beginning in 2008, the new Tier 4 engine standards for five power categories for engines from under 25 horsepower (hp) to above 750 horsepower will be phased in. New engine emissions test procedures will be phased in along with these new standards to better ensure emissions control over real-world engine operation and to help provide for effective compliance determination. The sulfur reductions to land-based nonroad diesel fuel will be accomplished in two steps, with an interim step from currently uncontrolled levels to a 500 ppm cap starting in June, 2007 and the final step to 15 ppm in June, 2010. This change in fuel quality will directly lead to important health and welfare benefits associated with the reduced generation of sulfate PM and SOX. Even more important, introduction of 15 ppm sulfur nonroad diesel fuel facilitates the introduction of advanced aftertreatment devices for nonroad engines.

http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/FR-2004-06-29/html/04-11293.htm


21 posted on 10/09/2013 7:43:04 AM PDT by thackney (life is fragile, handle with prayer)
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To: thackney

Yes, CNG, not LNG, that’s what I meant.


22 posted on 10/09/2013 7:46:27 AM PDT by Travis T. OJustice (I'm not a gynecologist, but I'll take a look.)
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To: posterchild
Trains carry a lot of dangerous chemicals safely every day. Is an LNG car likely to increase it’s risk profile significantly?

I do not believe it would.

23 posted on 10/09/2013 7:46:39 AM PDT by thackney (life is fragile, handle with prayer)
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To: 19th LA Inf
I believe it would be possible to convert existing diesel-electric locomotives to burn natural gas.

Yes it is.

24 posted on 10/09/2013 7:47:09 AM PDT by thackney (life is fragile, handle with prayer)
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To: DuncanWaring
They should just mount windmills on top of all the cars; that would generate power to run the locomotive.

LOL!

25 posted on 10/09/2013 7:47:26 AM PDT by Travis T. OJustice (I'm not a gynecologist, but I'll take a look.)
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To: thackney
The transformation to LNG for transportation is well underway in the marine industry.

The Kenai, AK fertilizer plant has been generating their own electricity with diesel locomotives converted to NG for 40+- years.

26 posted on 10/09/2013 7:49:26 AM PDT by Cold Heart
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To: thackney

Poorly described in the article.

Locomotives don’t actually run on diesel engines, or at least not in the way we think of cars and trucks being drive by engines. The diesel (or NG) engines are generators, which produce electricity which is what drives the wheels.

LNG has less energy per unit of volume, so requires a tender to carry fuel to get adequate range whereas the diesel locomotives can carry all the fuel they’re likely to need on board.


27 posted on 10/09/2013 7:50:01 AM PDT by Sherman Logan (Mark Steyn: "In the Middle East, the enemy of our enemy is also our enemy.")
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To: DuncanWaring

They should just mount windmills on top of all the cars; that would generate power to run the locomotive.

I got asked that question when I was taking a power and energy class. Windmills are not efficient, generators are seldom over 80% efficient, motors are inefficient also. You would have to be traveling with hurricane winds to run the windmills to overcome the energy losses at each stage.


28 posted on 10/09/2013 7:50:26 AM PDT by mountainlion (Live well for those that did not make it back.)
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To: Cold Heart

Shell LNG as Today’s Marine Fuel
http://www.gastechnology.org/Training/Documents/LNG17-proceedings/Transport-05-Eddie-Green-Presentation.pdf


29 posted on 10/09/2013 7:50:40 AM PDT by thackney (life is fragile, handle with prayer)
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To: thackney

And that did away with railroad diesel.


30 posted on 10/09/2013 7:53:02 AM PDT by Eric in the Ozarks ("Say Not the Struggle Naught Availeth.")
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To: mountainlion
You would have to be traveling with hurricane winds to run the windmills to overcome the energy losses at each stage.

You could do better with sail over windmills on a car.

31 posted on 10/09/2013 7:53:29 AM PDT by thackney (life is fragile, handle with prayer)
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To: Travis T. OJustice
I did a college research paper on the subject and actually in my humble opinion it looks quite promising. If anybody is super interested, let me know and I'll see if I can dig it up. This is the what I remember off the top of my head super compressed version.

Railroads have been studying this for a while, and the results were quite promising thought they did have some issues with being able to refuel them to full and sometimes they ran out of gas unexpectedly. UPS, I believe it was in 2002 tried out CNG (which is much easier to use) for delivery trucks in Saint Louis and had success with them.

For whatever use, the infrastructure is the largest expense. Thought railroads probably could do this in stages the easiest, as they could assign LNG locomotives to divisions that have a refueling station. A Similar strategy to how the Pennsylvania and Milwaukee Road used their electric locomotives.

For the longest time the price of natural gas has been tied to the price of oil and never varies from it by more than a certain range. So for those looking to use natural gas they could expect high prices when oil prices were high and the overall savings were generally not viewed as enough to justify the investment in infrastructure. Fracking may have changed that and separated the price of natural gas from oil so that even as oil prices climb the price of natural gas may not. So now seems to be the time to pursue the idea.

It certainly makes more sense than Ethanol, switch grass, and the other nonsense.

32 posted on 10/09/2013 7:54:06 AM PDT by Idaho_Cowboy (Ride for the Brand. Joshua 24:15)
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To: thackney

I guess my experience is a bit dated. When I was a kid I lived near a railroad and it seemed that the fuel the trains used was like tar to me. These days must be long gone.

Some large diesel engines can be converted to natural gas only fuel by changing heads and adding spark plugs. some use small charges of diesel to ignite the fuel. Stationary engines are great for natural gas.


33 posted on 10/09/2013 7:56:12 AM PDT by mountainlion (Live well for those that did not make it back.)
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To: thackney

You could do better with sail over windmills on a car.

There were some “Prairie Schooners” in the old west that replaced the horses with sail on a wagon. You were limited to going with the wind though.


34 posted on 10/09/2013 8:00:00 AM PDT by mountainlion (Live well for those that did not make it back.)
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To: mountainlion

A meat packing customer I called on used a D-379 Cat diesel engine running on natural gas to run their chilling equipment. The buyer said the lube oil would last “nearly forever” since the fuel was so clean.


35 posted on 10/09/2013 8:01:35 AM PDT by Eric in the Ozarks ("Say Not the Struggle Naught Availeth.")
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To: rottndog

I was thinking in terms of it being a terrific terorist target. No problem - just forcibly evacuate everyone that lives within two miles of any railroad track in order to create the “safe zone”.


36 posted on 10/09/2013 8:03:28 AM PDT by Pecos (Kritarchy: government by the judges)
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To: thackney
This discussion is reminding me more and more of Orwell and 1984 and Atlas Shrugged. It would be more efficient to take the government’s utopian controls off of the American people and let the people run the country according to economic conditions. We have the largest supply of energy in the country so the government stops energy production to bring in Saudi products to finance terrorists and we are financing our own destruction.
37 posted on 10/09/2013 8:05:35 AM PDT by mountainlion (Live well for those that did not make it back.)
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To: thackney

Please I wish someone develop a LNG system for home heating. PROPANE is TOO EXPENSIVE.


38 posted on 10/09/2013 8:06:08 AM PDT by central_va (I won't be reconstructed and I do not give a damn.)
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To: Triple
Your point is well taken about an unfair comparison on range with an LNG tender.

The reason for writing it that way is that LNG is refueling station limited, right now. So with a tender, LNG has workable range.

I think LNG is better than diesel on a couple of fronts - cost per gallon equivalent, and we produce Natgas in the US. No more exporting our $$ and jobs for a more costly fuel


They way railroads used to be broken up, the locomotives only need to be able to cover from one division point to the next, where they can be uncoupled and refueled and then coupled to a train going the other direction. For Union Pacific the Big Boys (debatably the larges steam locomotives ever built) were reserved for Sherman Hill where they crossed the continental divide. So you don't need the range to get across the country, and you don't need to install LNG refueling stations across the system all at one time.

That's how it worked in the steam era, not sure how much has changed so feel free to correct me if any railroad buffs are lurking out there. Either way it seems railroads or even trucking companies, where they could use them for delivery routes, and convert one terminal at a time to LNG could build a fleet over time, instead of having to make a massive investment upfront. Similar to the way diesels replaced steam locomotives on the railroads.

39 posted on 10/09/2013 8:08:09 AM PDT by Idaho_Cowboy (Ride for the Brand. Joshua 24:15)
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To: DuncanWaring
Would probably require some sort of auxiliary power to accelerate from a stop, though.

Just stop on a hill.

40 posted on 10/09/2013 8:08:38 AM PDT by Dedbone
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