Rand Paul to Illegals: We Will Find Place for You; Envisions 12 Million New Taxpayers

CNS ^ | 6/12/13 | Terence P. Jeffrey

[C. Edmund Wright]

So you benefited and made money from the open border. Great. Such a hero.

Nope, not at all. But I do know the industry and you do not. But small minds like you miss the point. Businesses up and running today that started 10-20-30 years ago had no grand plan to benfit from an open border in some kind of grand plan. Don't be such a lo fo. Most contracting companies open up with the owner as the entire labor force, and they grow one at a time and just try and stay in business week to week. They have no ability to know that the US would for 30 years have an open border, pay people not to work 99 weeks, destroy our dollar with weak dollar policies, etc. What an obtuse and ignorance ass you are.

[C. Edmund Wright]

There is some of that going on for sure - it is not one or the other. But that doesn’t change the tax paying fact angle. I never said it was a win win - I just said what I said and stand by it.

[kabar]

Of course it is the question. We are importing poverty thru legal immigration and an amnesty. You keep making these uninformed statements and then when called on it, you try to change the subject. Get better informed on the issue.

[kabar]

LOL. Since when does anecdotal information supplant real data? You are the supercilious asshole who makes unsupported statements on a subject you know very little about.

By the way, are you using e-verify?

[C. Edmund Wright]

Tens of thousands of job applicants is hardly anecdotal my friend - and I also have researched it, written many articles on it, given talks on it, and included the subject in two of my books.

What you need to dig deep and ask yourself what is the source of your seething rage. You have a psychosis on this that goes way beyond the issue itself, and I think you should seek medication for that condition. They’re doing wonderful things now with drugs.

Because I agree with you on the bill: it must be defeated. It will be devastating if it passes and the thinking behind supporting it is absurd. I also know that we will never have cred on this issue as long as we are ignorant of the facts, and you are ignorant of some of the facts.

Besides, I think your rage is tied to your ignorance. You really do think they are all working under the table and that greedy evil businesses have put all of this in place as part of some grand plan. Chill. That’s just simply not the case. It’s the business customers who benefit from the low prices, as margins are what they are. And many are paying taxes anyway. You might not even need the drugs if you would contemplate that and reduce your unhealthy anger.

[kabar]

I also know that we will never have cred on this issue as long as we are ignorant of the facts, and you are ignorant of some of the facts.

I lobby on the Hill and in Richmond on this issue as part of a grassroots organization. I have been doing this for over six years. I have worked with and know personally many of the key players on our side including Roy Beck, Mark Krikorian, Kris Kobach, Steve King, etc. I am not the one ignorant of the facts, you are.

You really do think they are all working under the table and that greedy evil businesses have put all of this in place as part of some grand plan. Chill. That’s just simply not the case.

First, I never said they were all working under the table. I know illegal aliens commit ID fraud, steal or make up phony SSN's etc. And many employers don't care and don't use E-verify. It is illegal to hire these lawbreakers and it is also illegal for them to work here. Many employers want to privatize the profits and socialize the costs. They could care less what this does to our nation.

From personal experience I can tell you that the Chamber of Commerce is our archenemy when it comes to the immigration issue. They have spent lots of money in legal fees trying to block legislation like the AZ law that mandated E-verify and was upheld by SCOTUS. At the state level they have always been on the other side. They control many Reps thru campaign contributions.

Motivated by parochial self-interest, the pro-mass immigration, open borders, amnesty advocates have formed a powerful coalition including the U.S. Chamber of Commerce, labor union leaders, the Catholic Church, ethnic and racial groups, “moderate” Republicans, and the Democrat Party. The common thread that unites these groups is power, money, and the prospect of increased constituencies, even at the expense of our long-term national interests and survival.

It’s the business customers who benefit from the low prices, as margins are what they are.

Fool's gold. The additional costs incurred by the taxpayer to pay for the costs of immigration far outweigh lower prices. Illegal immigration costs this nation more than $100 billion a year. And those are conservative numbers.

[C. Edmund Wright]

I actually agree with a lot of what you said, and we are in agreement on the destination of this bill. I will also tell you, that as much as I like Steve King, and as much as he likes my recent book on Karl Rove, I frankly have a lot more hiring and firing experience than he does, or than any member of Congress does. Lobbying the hill indicates interest, not experience.

Now, I also think you are right in part on the Chamber. And I think you are right in part on the “fools gold” part of the cost of labor. None of that changes my point on this, which is two fold: A: many are paying taxes and B: businesses are the victims of poor government for 60 years on welfare, EBT, border, etc. They are NOT the cause.

Yes, it is fools gold, but customers are just as much of a beneficiary of that fools gold as are the businesses - and while some big biz may be trying to influence the outcome...the small contractors are just trying to get folks to do the damned work. I will assure you of one thing, the American blue collar work force sucks. It just does. And govt policy is a big part of that. All of this is tied together with welfare reform, regulation, unions, etc.

Like I said, you and I agree on the politics of the bill. But if you think there would be a magical transformation of the native work ethic if you could somehow vaporize 100% of all illegals today, you are sadly mistaken. When you can live a 60K lifestyle on the government dole, it makes hiring labor that is market worth of something like 20-40K damned problematic.

Are you picking veggies or making beds today? Is anyone you know doing it, or willing to do it? Just something to think about. This bill sucks, and the Dems are playing the GOP for suckers ,but this is far more complicated than your realize.

It’s why I divested from this industry.....at great personal cost to me. I think thats called putting your money where your mouth is.

[kabar]

None of that changes my point on this, which is two fold: A: many are paying taxes and B: businesses are the victims of poor government for 60 years on welfare, EBT, border, etc. They are NOT the cause.

I never said that many were not paying taxes. I just take issue with the word "most." Certainly, only a minority are paying income taxes due to their low wages. 80% of Americans pay more in payroll tax than they do in income tax.

Businesses are both victims and abusers. They have pushed for a never ending supply of cheap, exploitable labor. Unfortunately, people are not widgets or units of labor. They bring their own culture and world view to our society.

The U.S. adds one international migrant (net) every 36 seconds. Immigrants account for one in 8 U.S. residents, the highest level in more than 90 years. In 1970 it was one in 21; in 1980 it was one in 16; and in 1990 it was one in 13. In a decade, it will be one in 7, the highest it has been in our history. And by 2050, one in 5 residents of the U.S. will be foreign-born.

Currently, 1.6 million legal and illegal immigrants settle in the country each year; 350,000 immigrants leave each year, resulting in a net immigration of 1.25 million. Since 1970, the U.S. population has increased from 203 million to 310 million, i.e., over 100 million. In the next 40 years, the population will increase by an additional 130 million to 440 million. Three-quarters of the increase in our population since 1970 and the projected increase will be the result of immigration. The U.S., the world’s third most populous nation, has the highest annual rate of population growth of any developed country in the world, i.e., 0.9% (2012 estimate,) principally due to immigration.

The nation’s immigrant population (legal and illegal) reached 40 million in 2010, the highest number in our history. The U.S. immigrant population has doubled since 1990, nearly tripled since 1980, and quadrupled since 1970, when it stood at 9.7 million. Of the 40 million immigrants in the country in 2010, 13.9 million arrived in 2000 or later making it the highest decade of immigration in American history, even though there was a net loss of jobs during the decade. Growth in the immigrant population has primarily been driven by high levels of legal immigration. Roughly three-fourths of immigrants in the country are here legally. With nearly 12 million immigrants, Mexico was by far the top immigrant-sending country, accounting for 29 percent of all immigrants and 29 percent of growth in the immigrant population from 2000 to 2010. The median age of immigrants in 2010 was 41.4 compared to 35.9 for natives.

And this increased immigration has had an electoral impact. 87 percent of the 1.2 million legal immigrants entering annually are minorities as defined by the U.S. Government and almost all of the illegal aliens are minorities. By 2019 half of the children 18 and under in the U.S. will be classified as minorities and by 2042, half of the residents of this country will be minorities. Generally, immigrants and minorities vote predominantly for the Democrat Party. Hence, Democrats view immigration as a never-ending source of voters that will make them the permanent majority party.

the small contractors are just trying to get folks to do the damned work. I will assure you of one thing, the American blue collar work force sucks. It just does. And govt policy is a big part of that. All of this is tied together with welfare reform, regulation, unions, etc.

So the solution is to bring in more unskilled and uneducated workers? 25% of the adult legal immigrants lack even a high school degree. More than 50% of the illegal aliens lack a high school degree. There are an estimated 22 million immigrants in our workforce with 7 million of them being illegal. We are importing poverty with immigrants, legal and illegal, using our welfare programs to a much higher degree than the native born.

Illegal immigration is costing over $100 billion annually, and that just covers the costs of education, health care, and incarceration. Our government refuses to enforce its own laws. Instead, we have the ludicrous case of the Federal government taking legal action against the states of Arizona, South Carolina, and Alabama for enforcing federal immigration laws and ignoring states and municipalities that violate federal laws by establishing sanctuaries for illegal aliens. We have 12 to 20 million illegal aliens present in this country violating our national sovereignty and committing crimes that have resulted in deaths and injuries to tens of thousands of our citizens. Over 50,000 Americans have been killed by illegal immigrants since 9/11.

And our legal immigration policies are importing poverty, taking jobs from Americans, and depressing wages. Moreover, they are changing the electoral landscape that will lead to the Democrats becoming the permanent majority party. The vision and values of our Founders will be lost and America risks being Balkanized along cultural and linguistic lines.

If the "the American blue collar work force sucks," then what should we do about it? Displacing them with foreign workers and creating a permanent underclass more reliant on Big Government and the welfare state will destroy the country. Wages have been going down for over 40 years. If we truly had a labor shortage problem, wouldn't the market market force wages to go up, i.e., supply and demand? In fact just the opposite is happening. And labor participation rates are declining.

The Rubio-Schumer bill will increase both unskilled and skilled labor immigration. Initially, we were told that immigrants will do jobs Americans won't do (a falsehood) and now we are being told by our corporate masters that immigrants will do jobs Americans can't do. What do you think this massive increase in labor will do to American wages and the 22 million Americans who are looking for full-time employment?

The 2007 bill was defeated in part due to widespread concerns over the increase in the number of guest workers. While the sponsors of S.744 have suggested that this bill more responsibly manages the number of guest workers than the rejected 2007 proposal, it allows for dramatically more guest workers than the 2007 plan did. Such a large number by definition will displace American workers and the chronically unemployed. It will also reduce job opportunities for legal immigrants. By any measure, S.744 is worse for workers, at a worse time, than previous attempts at comprehensive reform. As Senator Bernie Sanders (I-Vt.) recently put it in an interview, "This is a massive effort to attract cheap labor, a great disservice to American workers."

Are you picking veggies or making beds today? Is anyone you know doing it, or willing to do it? Just something to think about. This bill sucks, and the Dems are playing the GOP for suckers ,but this is far more complicated than your realize.

No, but I did plenty of menial labor and had a job since the age of 12 when I started out as a paperboy. I am retired now.

Most of the jobs like making beds are still being done predominantly by Americans. If you truly want to understand the immigration issue's effect on the American worker please read this piece entitled, Immigration and the American Worker by Professor George Borjas of Harvard. The issue may be more complicated than you realize.

"For American workers, immigration is primarily a redistributive policy. Economic theory predicts that immigration will redistribute income by lowering the wages of competing American workers and increasing the wages of complementary American workers as well as profits for business owners and other “users” of immigrant labor. Although the overall net impact on the native-born is small, the loss or gain for particular groups of the population can be substantial.

The best empirical research that tries to examine what has actually happened in the U.S. labor market aligns well with economy theory: An increase in the number of workers leads to lower wages. This report focuses on the labor market impact of immigration."

[Pelham]

“12 million? Don’t they get to bring 10 of their closest family members each?”

The 1986 amnesty averaged about 5 extra people.

But the ‘12 million’ number is a steaming crock of excrement.

A Wall Street investment firm with no interest in faking the numbers ran its own study 10 years ago and they found the illegal alien population to be just under 30 million.

So 5 X 30 million is your best estimate of the impact on America if this Amnesty abomination goes through.

150 million Third Worlders added to an already diminishing number of American natives.

But don’t worry! The Compassionate Conservatives and the GOP-e like them and they don’t care much about you. So it’s all good!

[Pelham]

“I’m not supporting the bill - it’s awful - but the notion that most who work are not paying taxes is simply not the case.”

Proving that you know virtually nothing about how the cash economy of the illegal aliens operates.

[C. Edmund Wright]

Sorry dude....I only skimmed.....and you are guilty of what liberals are guilty of....taking academic theory and pretending you know WTF is going on in reality. Skimming, found a few major miscalculations: First one:

Businesses are both victims and abusers. They have pushed for a never ending supply of cheap, exploitable labor. Unfortunately, people are not widgets or units of labor. They bring their own culture and world view to our society.

You clearly have never owned a business - at least one that depended on blue collar labor. Businesses are not pushing anything other than trying to friggin stay in business. You are way off on this, with just a few exceptions like chambers and so forth.

I just take issue with the word "most." Certainly, only a minority are paying income taxes due to their low wages. 80% of Americans pay more in payroll tax than they do in income tax.

Which proves MY point, that they are consistent with the rest of the legal workforce in that regard. Now, you bore me. My 22 years is more powerful than your 5000 word posts.....that I'll not read.

[kabar]

Sorry dude....I only skimmed.....and you are guilty of what liberals are guilty of....taking academic theory and pretending you know WTF is going on in reality. Skimming, found a few major miscalculations: First one:

Skimmed? No wonder you made the asinine statement about academic theory. The piece by Prof Borjas is made on the basis of real economic data. Just because it doesn't conform to your preconceived notions doesn't make it invalid. Wages have been going down, especially for those Americans competing against immigrant labor. The business owners are making a profit while workers are suffering depressed wages. It is just commonsense and commensurate with free market principles.

You clearly have never owned a business - at least one that depended on blue collar labor. Businesses are not pushing anything other than trying to friggin stay in business. You are way off on this, with just a few exceptions like chambers and so forth.

I did own a small business, but it did not involve blue collar labor. I understand that businesses are trying to stay in business. They must compete with other firms. If the other firm employs cheap blue collar immigrant labor, then you must follow suit or go out of business. It is happening everywhere whether it is a roofing company or construction. Lower wages result making the jobs less attractive for native Americans.

I know you don't like facts that vary with your uninformed opinions, but "skim" this: Are There Really Jobs Americans Won’t Do? A detailed look at immigrant and native employment across occupations

"This analysis tests the often-made argument that immigrants do only jobs Americans don't want. If the argument is correct, there should be occupations comprised entirely or almost entirely of immigrants (legal and illegal). But Census Bureau data collected from 2009 to 2011, which allows for detailed analysis of all 472 separate occupations, shows that there were only a handful of majority-immigrant occupations. Thus, there really are no jobs that Americans won't do. Further, we estimated the share of occupations that are comprised of illegal immigrants, and found that there are no occupations in which the majority of workers are illegally in the country."

Which proves MY point, that they are consistent with the rest of the legal workforce in that regard. Now, you bore me. My 22 years is more powerful than your 5000 word posts.....that I'll not read.

Your only point is at the top of your head. I was trying to educate you, but your ignorance is only exceeded by your arrogance.

[C. Edmund Wright]

zzzz

[Pelham]

“Now, the basis for my assertion? 22 years in the contracting business”

No wonder you appear to soft peddle the problem.

You are part of the industry that decided to employ an army of illegals.

[Pelham]

“What you need to dig deep and ask yourself what is the source of your seething rage. You have a psychosis on this that goes way beyond the issue itself, “

The hit dog always barks.

The spew of personal invective you just hurled at kabar is proof enough that kabar hit home.

The rest of us get stuck with the social and financial burdens that illegals bring in so that you can enjoy your ill gotten gain.

[C. Edmund Wright]

That’s absurd, totally absurd. This is not about me at all. Go ahead and revel in your ignorance. You have plenty.

[C. Edmund Wright]

Never did, and I should sue you for libel and slander.

[RedHeeler]

Sue me. My name is RNC/DNC/SSA. Please sue me. Want my address?

[Pelham]

“Never did, and I should sue you for libel and slander.”

Right. No one else in your industry hires illegals either. You all just happen to hire Americans whose hobby is speaking Spanish.

[Pelham]

“Never did, and I should sue you for libel and slander.”

Never did what?

You seem to be denying something. What did you do?

The fact is that you’re part of an industry that is a heavy user of illegal alien labor.

And you’re here at FR acting as an apologist for amnesty.

We can all draw our own conclusions based on your own words.

Maybe you should sue yourself if your own words get under your thin skin.