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General: Heart attack killed a suffering Chavez ("I don't want to die" his last words)
My Way News (AP) ^ | Mar 7, 5:35 AM (ET) | FABIOLA SANCHEZ

Posted on 03/07/2013 4:27:10 AM PST by MuttTheHoople

President Hugo Chavez died of a massive heart attack after great suffering and inaudibly mouthed his desire to live, the head of Venezuela's presidential guard said late Wednesday.

"He couldn't speak but he said it with his lips ...

'I don't want to die. Please don't let me die,' because he loved his country, he sacrificed himself for his country," Gen. Jose Ornella told The Associated Press.

(Excerpt) Read more at apnews.myway.com ...


TOPICS: Foreign Affairs; News/Current Events; Politics/Elections
KEYWORDS: chavez; coward; death; venezuela
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To: MuttTheHoople

I wouldn’t want to die, either, if I knew I was going to Hell.

Well, I don’t anyway, but I’m ready to meet the Lord.

How does the saying go? “Heaven’s my home, but I ain’t homesick”.


51 posted on 03/07/2013 6:27:13 AM PST by chesley (Vast deserts of political ignorance makes liberalism possible - James Lewis)
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To: Carpe Cerevisi

I’m sure he’s singing God’s praises right next to Hitler, Stalin, and Che, all of whom probably had last minute conversisons.

Not that it couldn’t happen, it could. But the smart money bets otherwise.


52 posted on 03/07/2013 6:28:48 AM PST by chesley (Vast deserts of political ignorance makes liberalism possible - James Lewis)
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To: Carpe Cerevisi
'I don't want to die. Please don't let me die,'

Perhaps a near death experience allowed him to view the other side and it was not a pretty sight.

As for death bed conversions, a life-long reprobate rarely changes.

53 posted on 03/07/2013 6:30:03 AM PST by N. Theknow (Kennedys=Can't drive, can't ski, can't fly, can't skipper a boat, but they know what's best for you.)
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To: twister881

Jesus paid the price. But they have to accept His sacrifice. Having believed otherwise their entire lives, it is unlikely that they changed their minds at the last minute.

Could have happened, though, and if so he is now in Glory with God. However, I’m not expecting to see him when I get to Heaven.

If I do, I can only rejoice that God brought another sinner home. Whichever it is, though, he has decided his own eternal fate for himself.


54 posted on 03/07/2013 6:32:44 AM PST by chesley (Vast deserts of political ignorance makes liberalism possible - James Lewis)
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To: BCW

“Coldness of hell”?

Boy did my Sunday School teachers give me bad information :)


55 posted on 03/07/2013 6:34:09 AM PST by chesley (Vast deserts of political ignorance makes liberalism possible - James Lewis)
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To: yldstrk

I’m waiting on the Lord to show me that he has delegated you the judge of Hugo Chavez’a eternal destiny.


56 posted on 03/07/2013 6:35:36 AM PST by don-o (He will not share His glory, and He will not be mocked! Blessed be the Name of the Lord forever!)
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To: yldstrk

Healing? No.

Salvation? Yes.


57 posted on 03/07/2013 6:38:08 AM PST by chesley (Vast deserts of political ignorance makes liberalism possible - James Lewis)
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To: don-o

how is Ben ?????????????????????????


58 posted on 03/07/2013 6:38:12 AM PST by advertising guy (Clintonistas...................the other white meat)
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To: yldstrk

Sounds to me like you haven’t repented at all, in that case.

Think God can be fooled just like a parole board?


59 posted on 03/07/2013 6:39:59 AM PST by chesley (Vast deserts of political ignorance makes liberalism possible - James Lewis)
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To: BraveMan

You bring up an interesting point.

Do animals also experience life after death? I’ve read preachers and theologians argue both ways.

I do not know. I tend to think not, but would be happy to be wrong and see my pets again.

Do you have any thoughts?


60 posted on 03/07/2013 6:42:43 AM PST by chesley (Vast deserts of political ignorance makes liberalism possible - James Lewis)
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To: twister881
If Hitler, Mao, or Pol Pot repented at the hour of their deaths, are they now in Glory?

According to the Gospels....yes.


61 posted on 03/07/2013 6:43:27 AM PST by Buckeye McFrog
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To: DoodleDawg
His suffering is over

Not quite. Not ever. Or such is my opinion.

62 posted on 03/07/2013 6:44:08 AM PST by chesley (Vast deserts of political ignorance makes liberalism possible - James Lewis)
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To: Bulwyf; twister881

...Penance? ...not in God’s word. I don’t know what you’re reading.”

My bible mentions penance - Luke Chapter 13 Verse 3, “No, I say to you unless you shall do penance you shall all likewise perish.” Also Luke 3, 3 “...preaching the baptism of penance for the remission of sins.”


63 posted on 03/07/2013 6:50:33 AM PST by stonehouse01 (Equal rights for unborn women)
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To: Carpe Cerevisi

I agree. I have enough trouble worrying about my own soul to worry about Chavez’s soul.


64 posted on 03/07/2013 6:57:27 AM PST by ops33 (Senior Master Sergeant, USAF (Retired))
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To: Carpe Cerevisi
I don't think his ego would allow him to believe he would actually die.
His power was so great in his mind that no rationale would allow it.
65 posted on 03/07/2013 6:57:37 AM PST by MaxMax
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To: Buckeye McFrog
According to the Gospels....yes.

So then Hell is full of people with parking tickets who forgot to repent?

Hmmmmmm....

66 posted on 03/07/2013 7:00:13 AM PST by ROCKLOBSTER (Hey RATS! Control your murdering freaks.)
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To: tx_eggman; twister881

“Are you saying that Christ’s work on the cross isn’t sufficient all by itself?”

St. Paul to the Colossians: Chapter 1 Verse 24 - Who (Paul referring to himself) now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up those things that are wanting of the sufferings of Christ, in my flesh, for his body, the Church.”

Christ allowed the thief’s repentance to be sufficient and so the time the thief spent on the cross became his full penance because Christ said so - the thief had still suffered during his time on his cross.


67 posted on 03/07/2013 7:08:40 AM PST by stonehouse01 (Equal rights for unborn women)
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To: MuttTheHoople; liberalh8ter; BCW; Common Sense 101; TalBlack; oh8eleven; NELSON111; All

Here’s a poignant story you might find interesting:

There was a young woman who had been diagnosed with a terminal illness and had been given three months to live. So as she was getting her things “in order,” she contacted her Pastor and had him come to her house to discuss certain aspects of her final wishes.

She told him which songs she wanted sung at the service, what scriptures she would like read, and what outfit she wanted to be buried in.

Everything was in order and the Pastor was preparing to leave when the young woman suddenly

remembered something very important to her.

“There’s one more thing,” she said excitedly. “What’s that?” came the Pastor’s reply.

“This is very important,” the young woman continued. “I want to be buried with a fork in my right hand.”

The Pastor stood looking at the young woman, not knowing quite what to say.

That surprises you, doesn’t it?” the young woman asked.

“Well, to be honest, I’m puzzled by the request,” said the Pastor. The young woman explained. “My grandmother once told me this story, and from that time on I have always tried to pass along its message to those I love and those who are in need of encouragement. In all my years of attending socials and dinners, I always remember that when the dishes of the main course were being cleared, someone would inevitably lean over and say, ‘Keep your fork.’ It was my favorite part because I knew that something better was coming...like velvety chocolate cake or deep-dish apple pie. Something wonderful, and with substance!’

So, I just want people to see me there in that casket with a fork in my hand and I want them to wonder “What’s with the fork?” Then I want you to tell them: “Keep your fork; the best is yet to come.”

The Pastor’s eyes welled up with tears of joy as he hugged the young woman good-bye. He knew this would be one of the last times he would see her before her death. But he also knew that the young woman had a better grasp of Heaven than he did. She had a better grasp of what Heaven would be like than many people twice her age, with twice as much experience and knowledge. She KNEW that something better was coming.

At the funeral people were walking by the young woman’s casket and they saw the cloak she was wearing and the fork placed in her right hand.

Over and over, the Pastor heard the question, “What’s with the fork?” And over and over he smiled. During his message, the Pastor told the people of the conversation he had with the young woman shortly before she died He also told them about the fork and about what it symbolized to her. He told the people how he could not stop thinking about the fork and told them that they probably would not be able to stop thinking about it either.

He was right. So the next time you reach down for your fork let it remind you, ever so gently, that the best is yet to come. Family and friends are a very rare jewel, indeed. They make you smile and encourage you to succeed. They lend an ear, they share a word of praise, and they always want to open their hearts to us. Show your Family and friends how much you care. Remember to always be there for them, even when you need them more. For you never know when it may be their time to “Keep their fork.”

Cherish the time you have, and the memories you share ... being friends with someone is not an opportunity but a sweet responsibility.

And keep your fork.


68 posted on 03/07/2013 7:13:00 AM PST by carriage_hill (AR-10s & AR-15s Are The 21st Century's Muskets. Free Men Need Not Ask Permission!)
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To: twister881

What many miss is that between repentance and forgiveness is penance. Highly unlikely any of these tyrants, including Chavez, passed through that stage.


And the thief on the cross? How much penance did he have to do before he went to Paradise that day? Maybe he received a special dispensation because the college of cardinals were out of town at the time.
More of the foolish theology that Christ’s sacrifice wasn’t enough, man has to help in order for the cross to be fulfilled. Idiocy


69 posted on 03/07/2013 7:13:28 AM PST by Joshua
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To: twister881
If Hitler, Mao, or Pol Pot repented at the hour of their deaths, are they now in Glory?

Yes. As evidence, I would cite the parable about the workers in the vineyard, (Matthew 20:1-16), or the Good Thief.

But it's also true that those who are habituated to sin are unlikely to have a change of heart, in the end, which is one reason why it is wise to live a virtuous life.

What many miss is that between repentance and forgiveness is penance.

True. Which is a logical argument for the existence of a state of purification after death, i.e., Purgatory.

Matt. 12:32 – Jesus says, “And anyone who says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but no one who speaks against the Holy Spirit will be forgiven either in this world or in the next.”
Jesus thus clearly provides that there exists the possibility of forgiveness after death.

The phrase “in the next” (from the Greek “en to mellonti”) generally refers to the afterlife (see, for example, Mark 10.30; Luke 18.30; 20.34-35; Eph. 1.21 for similar language). Forgiveness is not necessary in heaven, and there is no forgiveness in hell. This proves that there is another state after death, and the Church for 2,000 years has called this state purgatory.

Scriptural support for the doctrine of Purgatory.

70 posted on 03/07/2013 7:13:45 AM PST by St_Thomas_Aquinas
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To: Old Yeller

“...So salvation depends on yourself. Something you must do in the way of works. Another false Catholic teaching.”

The Catholic church absolutel DOES NOT teach that salvation depends on yourself and is something you must do in the way of works. Those statements are a completely false twisting around of what the Church DOES teach.

The Catholic Church teaches that Christ on the cross did indeed render satisfaction for all of the sins of the whole world, and man is not capable to atone for one single sin. This is what the church actually teaches.

Because Christ did this for us, we are required to follow his example.


71 posted on 03/07/2013 7:17:16 AM PST by stonehouse01 (Equal rights for unborn women)
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To: carriage_hill

That was beautiful! Thank you for sharing that and I hope you don’t mind, I passed it on to my loved ones :)


72 posted on 03/07/2013 7:23:28 AM PST by liberalh8ter (If Barack has a memory like a steel trap, why can't he remember what the Constitution says?)
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To: silverleaf

When Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini died in June 1989, there was a brutal heat wave in Tehran. Iranian forces sprayed the crowds who took to the streets with water to prevent heat stroke. The quip on the streets of Tehran at the time was “the old man was so senile, he forgot to close the door on the way down.” With the passing of Venezuelan strongman Hugo Chavez, Khomeini surely has company.

Michael Rubin


73 posted on 03/07/2013 7:23:55 AM PST by CharlesMartelsGhost
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To: liberalh8ter
"It's been my experience that those of faith are “ready to go home” because they know what's ahead is God's glory. Sounds like Hugo wasn't convinced he'd have that experience."

Chavez's last words were a complete world away from the deathbed attitude of my husband's grandfather, who died a few years ago. He was the best example of a Christian I've ever known. During the last days of his life, he gathered us all round his hospital bed and told us not to mourn, because God was allowing him glimpses of what was to come, and he couldn't even begin to describe the wonder and beauty of it. He was not at all reluctant to go; in fact, He was looking forward to seeing Jesus.

His only concern was for his wife of 60-plus years, but he was confident the Lord would take care of her until her time came to join him.

74 posted on 03/07/2013 7:29:28 AM PST by CatherineofAragon (Support Christian white males---the architects of the jewel known as Western Civilization)
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To: MuttTheHoople
"...he sacrificed himself for his country..."

Yeah, he sacrificed so much...to the tune of 2 billion bucks in his pocket.

75 posted on 03/07/2013 7:30:10 AM PST by mass55th (Courage is being scared to death - but saddling up anyway...John Wayne)
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To: CatherineofAragon
How beautiful! My mother's death was very similar and gave me great strength to cope with my selfishness in the wake of her passing. God Bless!
76 posted on 03/07/2013 7:32:45 AM PST by liberalh8ter (If Barack has a memory like a steel trap, why can't he remember what the Constitution says?)
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To: liberalh8ter

Thank you so much...God bless you, too. :)

I love hearing about yuor mother. You know, I really believe God does that for the people left behind, as much as for the person He takes home.


77 posted on 03/07/2013 7:35:09 AM PST by CatherineofAragon (Support Christian white males---the architects of the jewel known as Western Civilization)
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To: CatherineofAragon

Thank you, too. I know where to put my faith and he never lets me down!


78 posted on 03/07/2013 7:40:02 AM PST by liberalh8ter (If Barack has a memory like a steel trap, why can't he remember what the Constitution says?)
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To: liberalh8ter

AMEN


79 posted on 03/07/2013 7:40:35 AM PST by CatherineofAragon (Support Christian white males---the architects of the jewel known as Western Civilization)
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To: Joshua
Penance: The virtue or disposition of heart by which one repents of one's own sins and is converted to God.

Obviously, true penance can be formed instantly, or it can take a lifetime of struggle.

80 posted on 03/07/2013 7:41:04 AM PST by Trailerpark Badass (So?)
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To: MuttTheHoople

Cancer spares no one - christians, non-christian alike. Being a christian does not spare one any suffering on this earth.


81 posted on 03/07/2013 7:45:32 AM PST by plain talk
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To: MuttTheHoople

He didn’t want to die because the Devil was whispering in his ear.


82 posted on 03/07/2013 7:47:54 AM PST by Georgia Girl 2 (The only purpose of a pistol is to fight your way back to the rifle you should never have dropped.)
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To: liberalh8ter

My distinct pleasure to have you do so. It’s well-worth reading.


83 posted on 03/07/2013 7:50:34 AM PST by carriage_hill (AR-10s & AR-15s Are The 21st Century's Muskets. Free Men Need Not Ask Permission!)
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To: Joshua
And the thief on the cross? How much penance did he have to do before he went to Paradise that day?

First, he was nailed to the cross. Probably not a pleasant experience.

Then, after hanging on the cross for nine hours, he had his legs broken by rods. Also, not very pleasant.

He then hung there until he suffocated. That, also probably didn't feel too good.

So, I'd say he suffered quite a bit before going to paradise.

But, the first thing he did was to ask Christ to remember him, which is to say he asked for forgiveness and it was granted. But, he still had to suffer before receiving his eternal reward.

84 posted on 03/07/2013 8:22:58 AM PST by Ol' Dan Tucker (People should not be afraid of the government. Government should be afraid of the people)
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To: Ol' Dan Tucker

See my post #67 - except you explained it way better!! Clearly the thief suffered the excrutiating death of crucifixion!! If that doesn’t constitute penance, I don’t what does.


85 posted on 03/07/2013 8:39:26 AM PST by stonehouse01 (Equal rights for unborn women)
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To: Gumdrop

Well we have no idea what we said, thought or did over the last several months. One cannot rule out a fullblown conversion. From his previous statements and actions it seems unlikely. But none of us really knows who goes to heaven or hell.

Also even if one goes to heaven does not preclude them for being held accoutable for their life as mentioned in the Bible. So there are unknown consequences of sin even for those saved. One cannot fully game the system, live like hitler, confess at the end and have zero consequences. I don’t see support in the scripture for such a “gaming the system” model.


86 posted on 03/07/2013 8:57:44 AM PST by plain talk
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To: stonehouse01

meant excruciating


87 posted on 03/07/2013 8:58:35 AM PST by stonehouse01 (Equal rights for unborn women)
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To: plain talk
One cannot fully game the system, live like hitler, confess at the end and have zero consequences. I don’t see support in the scripture for such a “gaming the system” model.

True, but even the thief with his last minute plea joined Jesus in paradise.

88 posted on 03/07/2013 8:59:44 AM PST by Future Snake Eater (CrossFit.com)
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To: St_Thomas_Aquinas; Bulwyf; NELSON111; Starstruck; tx_eggman; NCLaw441; Old Yeller; ...
Interesting discussion by all, excepting the occasional outbreak of anti-Roman Catholic bigotry. [Am not a Roman Catholic, but a traditional, conservative Christian, not of the evangelical or pre-millenial dispensationalist persuasion.]

Appreciate particularly the backup and Scripture references from stonehouse01. The thief on the cross and the workers in the vineyard can, in my view, be considered penitent. And perhaps there is forgiveness after this life (only one way any of us will ever know).

And yes, we are saved by Christ's sacrifice and our belief in a Triune God. But after our confession and acceptance, are we not called to walk in a better way, even though we never are able to do so very well? I worry these days about the smug self-righteousness of “feel good” Christianity: I'm saved by the Blood, and now I can continue living my consequence-free life, with no atonement for my sins. My get-out-of-jail-free card allows me to do this. Can we afterward commit acts so heinous (e.g., genocide) that we lose our salvation?

A question for the next round.

89 posted on 03/07/2013 10:32:28 AM PST by twister881
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To: Ol' Dan Tucker

So, I’d say he suffered quite a bit before going to paradise.


So let’s use your logic. If I get hit by a car, ask God’s forgiveness, and suffer in the street for an hour I’ve probably done enough penance, by your standards. If I jump off a curb see the car coming and call for salvation and I’m killed instantly I’m in trouble.

This shows the idiocy of your skewed theology.
Simple, if you need to do anything for your salvation it means Christ’s sacrifice wasn’t enough. Sorry I don’t worship an incapable God as you seem to.


90 posted on 03/07/2013 10:42:00 AM PST by Joshua
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To: Joshua
Simple, if you need to do anything for your salvation it means Christ’s sacrifice wasn’t enough.

I'm guessing you have to accept Christ's sacrifice, at the very least.

91 posted on 03/07/2013 11:28:25 AM PST by Trailerpark Badass (So?)
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To: twister881
I'm saved by the Blood, and now I can continue living my consequence-free life, with no atonement for my sins. My get-out-of-jail-free card allows me to do this. Can we afterward commit acts so heinous (e.g., genocide) that we lose our salvation?

God knew who we were and what we would become when he called us to be His children. We either are or are not a child of God. I may have failed at times, but I always tried to make my physical father proud of me. I also try to make my spiritual Father proud of me. Like my physical father's love, God's greater love is able to forgive my shortcomings. I doubt that those who would later commit genocide were ever called. However, remember that Paul, who was headed in that direction, was called.

92 posted on 03/07/2013 11:55:49 AM PST by Starstruck (I need a 30 round magazine because liberal whine gives me a buzz.)
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To: Starstruck
So you didn't choose to accept Christ's salvation freely and consciously?

It was imposed on you?

93 posted on 03/07/2013 12:16:51 PM PST by Trailerpark Badass (So?)
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To: Trailerpark Badass
So you didn't choose to accept Christ's salvation freely and consciously? It was imposed on you?

Sorry, I don't get into theological discussions with people who choose to rebut

The most important, and first, component of penance is contrition. But, I would suppose you consider THAT a "filthy rag."

94 posted on 03/07/2013 12:42:44 PM PST by Starstruck (I need a 30 round magazine because liberal whine gives me a buzz.)
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To: Starstruck
How convenient.

have a nice day.

95 posted on 03/07/2013 12:45:18 PM PST by Trailerpark Badass (So?)
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To: Joshua
This shows the idiocy of your skewed theology.

Idiocy? How about we keep this discussion on a civilized level instead of descending into personal insults?

96 posted on 03/07/2013 12:48:48 PM PST by Ol' Dan Tucker (People should not be afraid of the government. Government should be afraid of the people)
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To: Starstruck

The most important, and first, component of penance is contrition. But, I would suppose you consider THAT a “filthy rag.”


Yes I would. The only obligation to man was to accept and trust. And if I were you I would adhere to your rule and stay out of theological discussions. In all do respect you bring nothing to the debate except Catholic/human dogma.
You are trying to debate Christianity using religion. Two totally different subjects that you apparently fail to grasp. Seriously, if I wanted to discuss the folly of religion I’d debate a priest. Go bother someone else


97 posted on 03/07/2013 5:58:03 PM PST by Joshua
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To: MuttTheHoople

because he loved his country??

not nearly as much as he loved Cuba

He didn’t want to die, he had so much loot to spend!


98 posted on 03/07/2013 6:04:28 PM PST by GeronL (http://asspos.blogspot.com)
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To: Buckeye McFrog

According to the Gospels....yes.


But how about the human ruling body that granted itself the power to interpret the gospels? Surely you don’t claim that power? /sarc/


99 posted on 03/07/2013 6:06:12 PM PST by Joshua
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To: Buckeye McFrog

According to the Gospels....yes.


But how about the human ruling body that granted itself the power to interpret the gospels? Surely you don’t claim that power? /sarc/


100 posted on 03/07/2013 6:07:46 PM PST by Joshua
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