Skip to comments.General: Heart attack killed a suffering Chavez ("I don't want to die" his last words)
Posted on 03/07/2013 4:27:10 AM PST by MuttTheHoople
President Hugo Chavez died of a massive heart attack after great suffering and inaudibly mouthed his desire to live, the head of Venezuela's presidential guard said late Wednesday.
"He couldn't speak but he said it with his lips ...
'I don't want to die. Please don't let me die,' because he loved his country, he sacrificed himself for his country," Gen. Jose Ornella told The Associated Press.
(Excerpt) Read more at apnews.myway.com ...
I wouldn’t want to die, either, if I knew I was going to Hell.
Well, I don’t anyway, but I’m ready to meet the Lord.
How does the saying go? “Heaven’s my home, but I ain’t homesick”.
I’m sure he’s singing God’s praises right next to Hitler, Stalin, and Che, all of whom probably had last minute conversisons.
Not that it couldn’t happen, it could. But the smart money bets otherwise.
Perhaps a near death experience allowed him to view the other side and it was not a pretty sight.
As for death bed conversions, a life-long reprobate rarely changes.
Jesus paid the price. But they have to accept His sacrifice. Having believed otherwise their entire lives, it is unlikely that they changed their minds at the last minute.
Could have happened, though, and if so he is now in Glory with God. However, I’m not expecting to see him when I get to Heaven.
If I do, I can only rejoice that God brought another sinner home. Whichever it is, though, he has decided his own eternal fate for himself.
“Coldness of hell”?
Boy did my Sunday School teachers give me bad information :)
I’m waiting on the Lord to show me that he has delegated you the judge of Hugo Chavez’a eternal destiny.
how is Ben ?????????????????????????
Sounds to me like you haven’t repented at all, in that case.
Think God can be fooled just like a parole board?
You bring up an interesting point.
Do animals also experience life after death? I’ve read preachers and theologians argue both ways.
I do not know. I tend to think not, but would be happy to be wrong and see my pets again.
Do you have any thoughts?
Not quite. Not ever. Or such is my opinion.
...Penance? ...not in God’s word. I don’t know what you’re reading.”
My bible mentions penance - Luke Chapter 13 Verse 3, “No, I say to you unless you shall do penance you shall all likewise perish.” Also Luke 3, 3 “...preaching the baptism of penance for the remission of sins.”
I agree. I have enough trouble worrying about my own soul to worry about Chavez’s soul.
So then Hell is full of people with parking tickets who forgot to repent?
“Are you saying that Christ’s work on the cross isn’t sufficient all by itself?”
St. Paul to the Colossians: Chapter 1 Verse 24 - Who (Paul referring to himself) now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up those things that are wanting of the sufferings of Christ, in my flesh, for his body, the Church.”
Christ allowed the thief’s repentance to be sufficient and so the time the thief spent on the cross became his full penance because Christ said so - the thief had still suffered during his time on his cross.
Here’s a poignant story you might find interesting:
There was a young woman who had been diagnosed with a terminal illness and had been given three months to live. So as she was getting her things “in order,” she contacted her Pastor and had him come to her house to discuss certain aspects of her final wishes.
She told him which songs she wanted sung at the service, what scriptures she would like read, and what outfit she wanted to be buried in.
Everything was in order and the Pastor was preparing to leave when the young woman suddenly
remembered something very important to her.
“There’s one more thing,” she said excitedly. “What’s that?” came the Pastor’s reply.
“This is very important,” the young woman continued. “I want to be buried with a fork in my right hand.”
The Pastor stood looking at the young woman, not knowing quite what to say.
That surprises you, doesn’t it?” the young woman asked.
“Well, to be honest, I’m puzzled by the request,” said the Pastor. The young woman explained. “My grandmother once told me this story, and from that time on I have always tried to pass along its message to those I love and those who are in need of encouragement. In all my years of attending socials and dinners, I always remember that when the dishes of the main course were being cleared, someone would inevitably lean over and say, ‘Keep your fork.’ It was my favorite part because I knew that something better was coming...like velvety chocolate cake or deep-dish apple pie. Something wonderful, and with substance!’
So, I just want people to see me there in that casket with a fork in my hand and I want them to wonder “What’s with the fork?” Then I want you to tell them: “Keep your fork; the best is yet to come.”
The Pastor’s eyes welled up with tears of joy as he hugged the young woman good-bye. He knew this would be one of the last times he would see her before her death. But he also knew that the young woman had a better grasp of Heaven than he did. She had a better grasp of what Heaven would be like than many people twice her age, with twice as much experience and knowledge. She KNEW that something better was coming.
At the funeral people were walking by the young woman’s casket and they saw the cloak she was wearing and the fork placed in her right hand.
Over and over, the Pastor heard the question, “What’s with the fork?” And over and over he smiled. During his message, the Pastor told the people of the conversation he had with the young woman shortly before she died He also told them about the fork and about what it symbolized to her. He told the people how he could not stop thinking about the fork and told them that they probably would not be able to stop thinking about it either.
He was right. So the next time you reach down for your fork let it remind you, ever so gently, that the best is yet to come. Family and friends are a very rare jewel, indeed. They make you smile and encourage you to succeed. They lend an ear, they share a word of praise, and they always want to open their hearts to us. Show your Family and friends how much you care. Remember to always be there for them, even when you need them more. For you never know when it may be their time to “Keep their fork.”
Cherish the time you have, and the memories you share ... being friends with someone is not an opportunity but a sweet responsibility.
And keep your fork.
What many miss is that between repentance and forgiveness is penance. Highly unlikely any of these tyrants, including Chavez, passed through that stage.
And the thief on the cross? How much penance did he have to do before he went to Paradise that day? Maybe he received a special dispensation because the college of cardinals were out of town at the time.
More of the foolish theology that Christ’s sacrifice wasn’t enough, man has to help in order for the cross to be fulfilled. Idiocy
Yes. As evidence, I would cite the parable about the workers in the vineyard, (Matthew 20:1-16), or the Good Thief.
But it's also true that those who are habituated to sin are unlikely to have a change of heart, in the end, which is one reason why it is wise to live a virtuous life.
What many miss is that between repentance and forgiveness is penance.
True. Which is a logical argument for the existence of a state of purification after death, i.e., Purgatory.
Matt. 12:32 Jesus says, And anyone who says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but no one who speaks against the Holy Spirit will be forgiven either in this world or in the next.Jesus thus clearly provides that there exists the possibility of forgiveness after death.
The phrase in the next (from the Greek en to mellonti) generally refers to the afterlife (see, for example, Mark 10.30; Luke 18.30; 20.34-35; Eph. 1.21 for similar language). Forgiveness is not necessary in heaven, and there is no forgiveness in hell. This proves that there is another state after death, and the Church for 2,000 years has called this state purgatory.
“...So salvation depends on yourself. Something you must do in the way of works. Another false Catholic teaching.”
The Catholic church absolutel DOES NOT teach that salvation depends on yourself and is something you must do in the way of works. Those statements are a completely false twisting around of what the Church DOES teach.
The Catholic Church teaches that Christ on the cross did indeed render satisfaction for all of the sins of the whole world, and man is not capable to atone for one single sin. This is what the church actually teaches.
Because Christ did this for us, we are required to follow his example.
That was beautiful! Thank you for sharing that and I hope you don’t mind, I passed it on to my loved ones :)
When Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini died in June 1989, there was a brutal heat wave in Tehran. Iranian forces sprayed the crowds who took to the streets with water to prevent heat stroke. The quip on the streets of Tehran at the time was the old man was so senile, he forgot to close the door on the way down. With the passing of Venezuelan strongman Hugo Chavez, Khomeini surely has company.
Chavez's last words were a complete world away from the deathbed attitude of my husband's grandfather, who died a few years ago. He was the best example of a Christian I've ever known. During the last days of his life, he gathered us all round his hospital bed and told us not to mourn, because God was allowing him glimpses of what was to come, and he couldn't even begin to describe the wonder and beauty of it. He was not at all reluctant to go; in fact, He was looking forward to seeing Jesus.
His only concern was for his wife of 60-plus years, but he was confident the Lord would take care of her until her time came to join him.
Yeah, he sacrificed so much...to the tune of 2 billion bucks in his pocket.
Thank you so much...God bless you, too. :)
I love hearing about yuor mother. You know, I really believe God does that for the people left behind, as much as for the person He takes home.
Thank you, too. I know where to put my faith and he never lets me down!
Obviously, true penance can be formed instantly, or it can take a lifetime of struggle.
Cancer spares no one - christians, non-christian alike. Being a christian does not spare one any suffering on this earth.
He didn’t want to die because the Devil was whispering in his ear.
My distinct pleasure to have you do so. It’s well-worth reading.
First, he was nailed to the cross. Probably not a pleasant experience.
Then, after hanging on the cross for nine hours, he had his legs broken by rods. Also, not very pleasant.
He then hung there until he suffocated. That, also probably didn't feel too good.
So, I'd say he suffered quite a bit before going to paradise.
But, the first thing he did was to ask Christ to remember him, which is to say he asked for forgiveness and it was granted. But, he still had to suffer before receiving his eternal reward.
See my post #67 - except you explained it way better!! Clearly the thief suffered the excrutiating death of crucifixion!! If that doesn’t constitute penance, I don’t what does.
Well we have no idea what we said, thought or did over the last several months. One cannot rule out a fullblown conversion. From his previous statements and actions it seems unlikely. But none of us really knows who goes to heaven or hell.
Also even if one goes to heaven does not preclude them for being held accoutable for their life as mentioned in the Bible. So there are unknown consequences of sin even for those saved. One cannot fully game the system, live like hitler, confess at the end and have zero consequences. I don’t see support in the scripture for such a “gaming the system” model.
True, but even the thief with his last minute plea joined Jesus in paradise.
Appreciate particularly the backup and Scripture references from stonehouse01. The thief on the cross and the workers in the vineyard can, in my view, be considered penitent. And perhaps there is forgiveness after this life (only one way any of us will ever know).
And yes, we are saved by Christ's sacrifice and our belief in a Triune God. But after our confession and acceptance, are we not called to walk in a better way, even though we never are able to do so very well? I worry these days about the smug self-righteousness of “feel good” Christianity: I'm saved by the Blood, and now I can continue living my consequence-free life, with no atonement for my sins. My get-out-of-jail-free card allows me to do this. Can we afterward commit acts so heinous (e.g., genocide) that we lose our salvation?
A question for the next round.
So, I’d say he suffered quite a bit before going to paradise.
So let’s use your logic. If I get hit by a car, ask God’s forgiveness, and suffer in the street for an hour I’ve probably done enough penance, by your standards. If I jump off a curb see the car coming and call for salvation and I’m killed instantly I’m in trouble.
This shows the idiocy of your skewed theology.
Simple, if you need to do anything for your salvation it means Christ’s sacrifice wasn’t enough. Sorry I don’t worship an incapable God as you seem to.
I'm guessing you have to accept Christ's sacrifice, at the very least.
God knew who we were and what we would become when he called us to be His children. We either are or are not a child of God. I may have failed at times, but I always tried to make my physical father proud of me. I also try to make my spiritual Father proud of me. Like my physical father's love, God's greater love is able to forgive my shortcomings. I doubt that those who would later commit genocide were ever called. However, remember that Paul, who was headed in that direction, was called.
It was imposed on you?
Sorry, I don't get into theological discussions with people who choose to rebut
The most important, and first, component of penance is contrition. But, I would suppose you consider THAT a "filthy rag."
have a nice day.
Idiocy? How about we keep this discussion on a civilized level instead of descending into personal insults?
The most important, and first, component of penance is contrition. But, I would suppose you consider THAT a “filthy rag.”
because he loved his country??
not nearly as much as he loved Cuba
He didn’t want to die, he had so much loot to spend!
According to the Gospels....yes.
According to the Gospels....yes.