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Prison vs School: The Tour ( A Youtube video back to back comparison)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ogmtAQlp9HI ^

Posted on 12/27/2012 8:59:03 AM PST by wintertime

This video was made before the Sandy Hook killings. I expect that the prison-like conditions will grow worse.

Prison vs School: The Tour

Question: What do children learn when they attend prison-like indoctrination centers similar to those seen in this video? When children are in many ways treated like prisoners, and know that armed police and courts stand ready at all times to enforce the incarceration, what are they learning?

Answer: They risk learning to be comfortable prisoners of the state, comfortable with state compulsion, and they risk learning to be comfortable with the continuous threat of armed police and court action ever in the background of their lives. Their only crime was to born and for this they are incarcerated. They risk learning that the people who they should trust have abandoned them.

Question: How could anyone defend doing this to children? How can anyone deny what the outcome of having a nation of citizens comfortable with imprisonment will be for our continuing freedom?

Answer: I have no answer.

Question: Why would conservatives cooperate with this evil?

Answer: I have no answer.

Universal, police and court compelled government schooling is a very recent phenomena in human history. Our nation's Founding Fathers and 150,000 years of our human ancestors, would be appalled at the way we treat children. If they could speak from the dust they would warn of the evil it is doing to children and the evil consequences it will have for our continuing freedom.

(Excerpt) Read more at youtube.com ...


TOPICS: Culture/Society; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: blogging; notnews; opinion; sourcetitlenoturl
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To: verga
Dear verga,

These kids weren’t expelled for dangerous activities. They weren’t expelled at all. There was conflict concerning behavior between school authorities and the parents, and the suggested homeschooling. It appeared to me that the whole thing was a dodge by the schools, because they didn’t really have any cause to take formal action (other than to give them poor grades and maybe an occasional detention, if public schools do that sort of thing) against these kids, and this was a convenient way to be done with them.

There is no evidence that these children did much more than refuse to keep their mouths shut in class, use poor language, etc. They were just poorly-behaved, and didn’t have an attitude oriented toward learning, not dangerous.

They eventually left our homeschooling community, but not because anyone told them to go. I observed these kids a couple or so times a week. We had a modest co-op and I was coach of the chess club, and took my kids to other activities. These kids were annoying, often loud, crass, stupid and often ill-mannered. However, we parents conferred and all agreed, there wasn't much of any basis to throw them out of the co-op. They certainly weren't dangerous. They just didn’t fit in with the homeschooled kids.


sitetest

51 posted on 12/28/2012 12:59:53 PM PST by sitetest (If Roe is not overturned, no unborn child will ever be protected in law.)
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To: SoftballMominVA
Schools DO NOT ask children to be removed - this represents a loss in funding.

All it takes is one case to prove that not true and I know of one.

The school kicked the kid out and the mother was forced to homeschool.

FWIW, this boy excelled at academics at home, which he did not in the public school, and graduated from a community college, instead of JD which is where he was headed while in the public school system.

52 posted on 12/28/2012 1:07:01 PM PST by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: SoftballMominVA
Sorry, your story leaks water like a sieve - most likely from the parents of the given children putting the most flattering spin on the story to protect their child. But someone with a higher education, a doctorate in a health field, and who has made frequent claims to be skilled in logic should see through the holes in that story without having them pointed out.

I am not lying.

FReepmail....

53 posted on 12/28/2012 1:11:02 PM PST by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: metmom

Ah, the “no true Scotsman” defense again... :)

If you guys really think that using Sandy Hook is a great lead-in to a pro-homeschooling / anti-public school thread, I hope you aren’t in charge of PR or advertising strategy anywhere. I’m not saying that homeschooling was at fault, I’m saying that it’s really poor “optics”, given that the general public’s perception is that an adult homeschooler murdered tiny public school children.

You claim I was being disingenuous about Adam being a homeschooler, but “not entirely accurate” (your words), is a good synonym for “far from wrong”... ;)

But, I’ll gladly concede that Adam wasn’t really a homeschooler, if you’ll ping your ARtH ping list with your opinion on how many years (or percent) of homeschooling it takes before a kid is a “real” homeschooler, and ask for feedback. Let’s get a thread started!

Once you’ve developed a consensus, you can use that as a determination on whether any given achievement is by a “real” homeschooler, and can therefore be celebrated on a ARtH thread. It’ll require some investigation into each child’s past, but it’s the only way we can all be “entirely accurate”, which is clearly very important.


54 posted on 12/28/2012 1:21:12 PM PST by Fletcher J
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To: Fletcher J
Dear Fletcher J,

“Ah, the ‘no true Scotsman’ defense again... :)”

I passed this up the last time you wrote this, figuring you mistyped or just had a senior moment or something. But I see you've trotted out this canard again, so let me lend a hand.

What posters, including myself, have written, isn't actually the No True Scotsman logical fallacy. In my case, I actually confirmed that Mr. Lanza was homeschooled, but pointed out that in context, he'd spent most of his school years in traditional schools, public and private, and for this reason I asserted that your original post was not so much false as dishonest because of the failure to note context.

In the case of others, the tack is a little different.

Here is a short blurb from wiki:

“No true Scotsman is an informal fallacy, an ad hoc attempt to retain an unreasoned assertion.[1] When faced with a counterexample to a universal claim, rather than denying the counterexample or rejecting the original universal claim, this fallacy modifies the subject of the assertion to exclude the specific case or others like it by rhetoric, without reference to any specific objective rule.

Although you may debate its merit, it is a reliance on an objective standard to state that someone who attends traditional schools for primary and secondary years for 11 years and is homeschooled for the last two is far more a traditional schooler than a homeschooler.

Better luck next time.


sitetest

55 posted on 12/28/2012 2:00:11 PM PST by sitetest (If Roe is not overturned, no unborn child will ever be protected in law.)
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To: sitetest
These kids weren’t expelled for dangerous activities. They weren’t expelled at all.

Exactly the point I was making.

These kids were not expelled. It was suggested that the parents look into homeschooling. It was the parents choice, until the kids were so bad that it wasn't their choice

56 posted on 12/28/2012 2:14:57 PM PST by verga (A nation divided by Zero!)
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To: metmom

I believe you — and the situation you described is the exact kind that I described - leave before you are kicked out.

some kids are bright but go through rough patches behaviorally. Some work that out later in life, some do not.

However, the child you mentioned was not kicked out by a principal or counselour but rather given a chance without a bad mark on his record

Glad it worked out for him in the long run


57 posted on 12/28/2012 3:08:01 PM PST by SoftballMominVA
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To: verga; wintertime
Dear verga,

Not sure of your point. I never said they were expelled, only “encouraged” to leave.

My original reply to you was to your post where you replied to wintertime:

“This failure of logic demands a response...”

And then you talk about the three reasons why kids are removed from schools. But you're the one talking about forcible expulsion, not cases where parents are coerced to take their kids out of public schools by less-formal means.

You actually quoted part of the post to which you'd replied:

“Before we moved, in our other state, we were members of congregation that had many lower class members. It was appalling how many “push-outs” into homeschooling there were in our congregation. These kids were not being homeschooled. They just weren't wanted in their government indoctrination camps and it was the **principals** and counselors in these indoctrination camps who encouraged the parents to remove their kids.”


sitetest

58 posted on 12/28/2012 3:46:21 PM PST by sitetest (If Roe is not overturned, no unborn child will ever be protected in law.)
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To: sitetest; wintertime; verga
“Before we moved, in our other state, we were members of congregation that had many lower class members. It was appalling how many “push-outs” into homeschooling there were in our congregation. These kids were not being homeschooled. They just weren't wanted in their government indoctrination camps and it was the **principals** and counselors in these indoctrination camps who encouraged the parents to remove their kids.”

And then some people go and use that as examples of how bad homeschooling is and when the kids really go off the deep end, then the homeschooling is blamed for it, when in reality, they were really messed up before they were *encouraged* to be homeschooled by the very school administrators who blame homeschooling for messing kids up.

The hypocrisy is staggering.

59 posted on 12/28/2012 4:01:08 PM PST by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: verga

I respectfully request that you not ping me or send private mail to me. Please feel free to comment as you like, even using my name, but, please, no contact.

Politely and respectfully,

wintertime


60 posted on 12/28/2012 5:02:14 PM PST by wintertime
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To: SoftballMominVA
Schools DO NOT ask children to be removed
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Well....You are right, in a way.

The children I was referring to were difficult for all involved, parents, teachers, principals. Some was due to poor parenting practices, other reasons were because of educational malpractice on the part of the school, and nearly all the kids had varying degrees of ADD and ADHD.

The school staff strongly suggested that homeschooling might be the better option, and given that the child was most truant anyway, the parent took the path of least resistance. The feeling among the parents was that the schooling staff were glad to be rid of these kids.

Among fellow homeschoolers, we called these kids, “push-outs”, and we found it irritating the the were found among the county's “homeschooling” statistic. These kids weren't being homeschooled. They were a mess and their parents were, too.

61 posted on 12/28/2012 5:17:13 PM PST by wintertime
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To: SoftballMominVA

**None** of these kids went to church. If the parent couldn’t get them out of bed to go to school, they were unlikely to motivate the child to go to church.

Re: Getting fired

Yep! There was some of that, too.

Re: Not wanting other children around these kids

Yep! That was the case. These kids didn’t show up at church meeting or activities. Even though mighty efforts were made by **mature adults** to reach out to these kids in fellowship, I never knew any that responded. Some went on to serve prison terms and, again. fellowship was maintained by those mature members of the congregation who were solid in their faith.


62 posted on 12/28/2012 5:24:42 PM PST by wintertime
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To: wintertime; sitetest; metmom; SoftballMominVA; Gabz
**None** of these kids went to church. If the parent couldn’t get them out of bed to go to school, they were unlikely to motivate the child to go to church. Re: Getting fired Yep! There was some of that, too. Re: Not wanting other children around these kids Yep! That was the case. These kids didn’t show up at church meeting or activities. Even though mighty efforts were made by **mature adults** to reach out to these kids in fellowship, I never knew any that responded. Some went on to serve prison terms and, again. fellowship was maintained by those mature members of the congregation who were solid in their faith.

Seriously, you really think this is an excuse. This is bad parenting pure and simple. A child doesn't want to get out of bed and the parent is helpless. This is a joke. A couple of days of re stacking the woodpile, or sleeping on the floor would straighten that attitude out right quick. A friend of mines stepson tried to pull that crap once. He grabbed the kids ear and made sure the rest of the body followed. End of problem.

63 posted on 12/29/2012 4:29:30 AM PST by verga (A nation divided by Zero!)
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To: verga

I respectfully request that you not ping me or send private mail to me. Please feel free to comment as you like on my posts or threads, even using my name, but, please, no contact.

Politely and respectfully,

wintertime


64 posted on 12/29/2012 4:45:27 AM PST by wintertime
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To: verga

Have you ever had a parent call you and ask you to call their child in the morning to wake them up from school? I’ve had parents with kids as young as 10 years old tell me they couldn’t do anything with their kids and they were close to giving up — AT 10!

Like you said, a few days of doing work - real work - would be good for them. Of course, the parents can’t drag them out of their comfy basement room complete with ipod, stereo, xbox, big screen TV, video games. Not many 10 year olds would choose differently


65 posted on 12/29/2012 4:49:26 AM PST by SoftballMominVA
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To: SoftballMominVA
Have you ever had a parent call you and ask you to call their child in the morning to wake them up from school? I’ve had parents with kids as young as 10 years old tell me they couldn’t do anything with their kids and they were close to giving up — AT 10!

I can't say that I have, but I have one student now (9th grader) both parents are out of the picture. He lives with his grandfather (grandparents are divorced). The rand father told me that he can't get him out of bed on Saturday mornings to do chores around the hosue before noon.

Like you said, a few days of doing work - real work - would be good for them. Of course, the parents can’t drag them out of their comfy basement room complete with ipod, stereo, xbox, big screen TV, video games. Not many 10 year olds would choose differently. And that is exactly what this young man has. During his most recent IEP meeting he told us that he frequently stays up till 3-4 in the moring listening to music, playing HALO, etc...

Simple solution take all that stuff away. Of course that requires adults to act like adults.

66 posted on 12/29/2012 5:03:02 AM PST by verga (A nation divided by Zero!)
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To: metmom

The hypocrisy is staggering.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

The hypocrisy is staggering. And...What is even more staggering is the refusal to consider or admit that institutional schooling has likely made a less than ideal situation **worse**!

The families that I am referring to, indeed, lacked parenting skills however in every case, there were good family members in these children’s lives, with solidly good living habits, who loved and took and interest in the child.They were often grandparents, aunts, or uncles. These children would have been far better off if they had been able to work in the small family businesses that these responsible family members often owned or were employed in, and mentored by caring adults, who knew how to show up for work every day and live orderly and respectable lives.

Teachers say that they “love” children, but no one is as “invested” in the long term welfare of a child more than his own family ( nuclear and extended, functional or dysfunctional).

It was my anecdotal observation that institutionalized schooling actually made matters worse in two ways. One, and most influential, was the friends made in school, and the other was the push to have these kids diagnosed ADD or ADHD .

Question: If a good fairy were to sweep across the land, wave her magic wand, and close all institutional schools tomorrow, what would happen?

Answer: There would be chaos for about 2 weeks. Within days, same children who are getting an education today, would continue their education. The same kids who aren’t being educated would not be educated.

Why? Because, it is my observation that any real learning a child acquires is outside of the institutional school and is due to the hard work of the parents and other very “invested” family members, the child himself doing home study, and paid and unpaid tutoring.


67 posted on 12/29/2012 5:13:01 AM PST by wintertime
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To: wintertime; humblegunner
Question: If a good fairy were to sweep across the land, wave her magic wand, and close all institutional schools tomorrow, what would happen?

Answer: There would be chaos for about 2 weeks. Within days, same children who are getting an education today, would continue their education. The same kids who aren’t being educated would not be educated.

Why? Because, it is my observation that any real learning a child acquires is outside of the institutional school and is due to the hard work of the parents and other very “invested” family members, the child himself doing home study, and paid and unpaid tutoring.

Humblegunner guess who is at it again.

68 posted on 12/29/2012 5:26:30 AM PST by verga (A nation divided by Zero!)
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To: verga
I respectfully request that you not ping me or send private mail to me. Please feel free to comment as you like on my posts or threads, even using my name, but, please, no contact.

Politely and respectfully,

wintertime

69 posted on 12/29/2012 5:29:07 AM PST by wintertime
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To: wintertime

I agree.

People who value an education will get one anyway. Those who don’t won’t no matter how many hours per day and how many days per year they are forced to spend in public schools.

Students get an education in spite of public schools, not because of them.

Parental involvement is so critical that the best demonstration of the success/failure of public education is to look at those children whose parents are not involved in their education, and at that point, the abysmal failure of the public education establishment becomes blindingly obvious.


70 posted on 12/29/2012 5:51:30 AM PST by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: metmom
Parental involvement is so critical that the best demonstration of the success/failure of public education is to look at those children whose parents are not involved in their education, and at that point, the abysmal failure of the public education establishment lousy parents becomes blindingly obvious. Fixed it for you.
71 posted on 12/29/2012 7:50:17 AM PST by verga (A nation divided by Zero!)
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To: verga

Public school educrat blame shifting duly noted.


72 posted on 12/29/2012 8:06:16 AM PST by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: metmom
Lousy parent Public school educrat blame shifting duly noted. Fixed it for you, again
73 posted on 12/29/2012 8:17:04 AM PST by verga (A nation divided by Zero!)
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To: verga; wintertime
Dear verga,

I don't think anyone will deny that parents who aren't engaged with their children's education are hurting their children. In fact, when you mention this, you're actually making a large part of wintertime's argument for her.

She has repeatedly said that it is PARENTS who make the difference, usually, in their children's lives. She has said repeatedly that whatever success children enjoy in traditional schools is strongly tied to the schooling that happens in the HOME.

And thus, she concludes (not completely wrongly) that folks might as well just homeschool, since the traditional school isn't the entity actually accomplishing education.

The flip side to that, the point you think you're making (but which is already implied in wintertime's argument), is that poor parents make for poor educational outcomes. Of course!

But a question you're not answering is, well, if poor parenting results in poor outcomes, whether through homeschooling or through traditional schools, and good parenting results in good outcomes, whether through homeschooling or through traditional schools, why do we need outlandishly-expensive, useless, ineffective public schools that burden the average taxpayer tremendously?

I appreciate your taking wintertime's side of the argument. Maybe we CAN all get along. ;-)

That said, I've seen more than one family do a great job homeschooling and then see the local public school undo all the good they accomplish.

My neighbor's oldest son went to our renowned elementary school till about 4th grade. Bright kid, but very physical, very energetic, needed to move around a lot. He could play a mean game of chess (I was chess coach of the homeschool chess club, and for the two years that the family homeschooled, he came to chess club weekly. Among a group of very smart kids, he quickly rose to the top.)

Anyway, by the end of 4th grade, our “high-quality” local elementary school had labeled him learning disabled, intellectually a bit slow, and ADHD. Drugs and all.

This public school thing wasn't working so well. So, mom, who worked out of her house, brought him home for two years. She came to us for advice on homeschooling, and she generally chose a pretty good homeschooling path. She used a reputable “curriculum in a box,” and was diligent. I felt sad for her when she told me of her son's troubles, ending it by saying, “We failed our elementary school.” No, they didn't. The public school failed her bright, sharp, fun-loving son. But she couldn't throw off her life-long indoctrination about public schools and see the thing as it really is.

Anyway, after two years at home, the young fellow went from being roughly a year behind in most subjects to about a year ahead. Except in math, where, by the end of 6th grade, he was doing basic algebra. Well, heck, he's a smart kid, why shouldn't he have been that far advanced?

Well, anyway, problem fixed, mom and dad decided to put him back into public school - middle school, by this point. The school ignored the advances he'd made in two years of homeschooling, and placed him academically according to where he was when he left the school system after 4th grade.

What a travesty.

And this is in the state of Maryland, which year in and year out has highly-ranked public schools, including a No. 1 rank in the last few years, in one of the top county school systems in the state. At schools which are considered models in the county's public school system. Highly-rated schools in a highly-rated county system in one of the top-ranked states in the country.

And they can't figure out how to decently educate a bright, energetic, pleasant, well-behaved but active young man.

Doctors go by the motto of, “First, do no harm.”

Educrats should at least try to live by the same philosophy.

He struggled through middle school and the first year of high school. He got pretty messed up in those three years. They finally sent him off to an expensive boarding school that specialized in fixing kids broken by crappy schools, he graduated high school and went off to college.

The lesson of all this is that poor parenting almost always leads to poor educational outcomes, whether privately-schooled, publicly-schooled or homeschooled. But good parenting nearly always leads to excellent outcomes in homeschooling, usually leads to good outcomes in good private schools, and, well, in public schools, it's a bit of a crapshoot.

I've never personally seen good, diligent homeschoolers fail, but I could tell you multiple stories like this one where good parents saw their kids fail to thrive in even “good” public schools.

Unlike others, I don't say that public schools always fail, or that we should immediately close them all down, or that no one gets educated in them, or that there aren't any public schools that are genuinely good and effective academically. My son goes to college with lots of kids from top-tier public schools, and they're all damned smart and damned successful, academically.

But public schools are generally suboptimal in obtaining a good education. Some kids do very well, perhaps even achieving their potential, more do okay, and unfortunately, a large minority get cheated out of an education. Much of this is due to the quality of parenting, especially when students are successful. Much of it is due to the schools, themselves, especially when students fail.

Nearly all children of poor parents will fail educationally, no matter the school choice. Parents are the first and primary teachers of their children. Parental involvement is the first and most important attribute of a successful educational outcome. But public schools often stymie and hinder good educational outcomes for children even of good, decent and diligent parents.


sitetest

74 posted on 12/29/2012 9:10:45 AM PST by sitetest (If Roe is not overturned, no unborn child will ever be protected in law.)
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To: SoftballMominVA
Have you ever had a parent call you and ask you to call their child in the morning to wake them up from school? I’ve had parents with kids as young as 10 years old tell me they couldn’t do anything with their kids and they were close to giving up — AT 10!
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

These sound like parents who love and care about their children and are desperate for help.

I am certain that since you are a professional the contempt for these parents that is evident in your post was not reflected in your voice or conversation with them.

I am certain that your professionalism recognized that these were parents who loved their children and were seeking much needed **help**!

I am certain that, as a professional, you knew of all the school services, and private and public agencies, that would help these parents learn more effective parenting skills.

I am certain that since you are a professional that you follow up with the child, the parent, and the counseling agencies to see that these kids and their parents didn't fall through the bureaucratic cracks.

75 posted on 12/29/2012 10:06:31 AM PST by wintertime
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To: wintertime

you know nothing about me and your veiled and not so veiled sarcasm is disgusting


76 posted on 12/29/2012 11:04:19 AM PST by SoftballMominVA
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To: sitetest
But a question you're not answering is, well, if poor parenting results in poor outcomes, whether through homeschooling or through traditional schools, and good parenting results in good outcomes, whether through homeschooling or through traditional schools, why do we need outlandishly-expensive, useless, ineffective public schools that burden the average taxpayer tremendously?

Your question is a loaded one, but I will answer it. Just as I have answered a number of times on previous threads. 1) Not every parent is capable of homeschooling, either for financial, physical. or mental limitations. I taught at an inner city school for 2 years. 6 classes 20 weeks semesters roughly 20 students per class. Roughly 480 students in 2 years time. Only 8 of them did not come from single parent homes. Over 60 of them were being raised by Aunts and grandparents. All of them had to work to make ends meet.

2)Special needs children. There is a myth going around that it costs an average of $X to educate a child. The truth is that quite a bit of the cost goes to special needs children (No I am not complaining about Special needs children I am simply stating a fact) Schools are able to meet the needs of these children because we have been able to focus these services into one place. With that comes quite a bit of reporting that has to go to the state and federal agencies.

3) Selfish parents. Let me give you an example I administrate the "Teacher Assistance Team." We meet at the request of either a parent, Guidance counselor, or teacher, for students that are not having sucess in the class room. We had a parent that swore up and down that her child had a mental disability and could not function in a normal class room setting. She was also saying this in front of and directly tot he child. She kept haranguing the principal and his teachers. The Principal asked me to do the two required random observations on the boy. After the second one I met with him in private and told him that I did not note anything that caused me to believe that he was a Special needs student.

Sadly in order to placate this mother we had to send him for for evaluation. Mental, Physical, Social, and a full homes study. This cost just over %5,000. The finding was that the kids was perfectly normal. This money could have been better spent on a child with genuine needs.

One other thing you need to be aware of is that I fully support Homeschooling, Private, Parochial, Charter schools and vouchers. I believe that the competition would do every one good. I am also confident in my teaching abilities. I can say with our bragging that you won't find a batter cabinetry teacher in the entire valley and I am every bit as good a drafting teacher as the other 4 teachers in the valley.

Now I know that it gets the homeschooling extremists frothing at the mouth when I offer to give them a list of students that they can take and use to prove their theories on, but I only do it because it really gets them to show their true colors.

77 posted on 12/29/2012 11:06:34 AM PST by verga (A nation divided by Zero!)
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To: SoftballMominVA
Have you ever had a parent call you and ask you to call their child in the morning to wake them up from school? I’ve had parents with kids as young as 10 years old tell me they couldn’t do anything with their kids and they were close to giving up — AT 10!
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

These are your words, not mine. They are there for all to see.

78 posted on 12/29/2012 11:15:21 AM PST by wintertime
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To: wintertime; metmom; SoftballMominVA; Gabz; moder_ator
I am certain that since you are a professional the contempt for these parents that is evident in your post was not reflected in your voice or conversation with them.

I am certain that your professionalism recognized that these were parents who loved their children and were seeking much needed **help**!

I am certain that, as a professional, you knew of all the school services, and private and public agencies, that would help these parents learn more effective parenting skills.

I am certain that since you are a professional that you follow up with the child, the parent, and the counseling agencies to see that these kids and their parents didn't fall through the bureaucratic cracks.

Wintertime do you realize just how insulting these unprovoked comments are. And this is not the first time you have made these types of comments. Any Public school teacher that crosses your path gets some variation on them.

Free Republic is a news posting and discussion forum this is not discussion. You have complained about others using Alynsky tactics, and that is what you are doing.

Further about a month ago your posts caused another FReeper to advocate violence against Public school officials. Many of his posts ended up being removed by the moderator but you bear responsibility to some degree for his comments.

Finally these videos that you post links to comparing schools to prisons are not edifying to anyone. You don't like public schools that is your choice but to constantly seek to demean the good men and women that work there is just wrong and you should be ashamed of yourself.

79 posted on 12/29/2012 12:12:32 PM PST by Hope for the Republic (The 1st amendment is protected by the 2nd amendment)
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To: Hope for the Republic; SoftballMominVA; verga

Bravo!!!!!!!!!!!

Now be prepared for the onslaught of insults you will incur for daring to speak up in defense of others.

I am not a teacher, I do not have the temperament for it, and thus do place value on and with those who are more capable than I.

When our daughter was approaching 3 (she’s now 14) my husband and I realized it was time for us to move as he refused to allow a child of his to attend any school in the district in which we then lived, as that is where he had attended school and knew just how bad it was. Being the product of Catholic schools, I said no to the area ones around us, as they were just as poor as the public schools. Staying in Delaware was really no longer and option, but we were sort of limited to where we could move because of his work.

The schools in the surrounding areas of Maryland were really no better than what was available in lower Delaware, so we ventured a bit further south. Our very bright, now 9th grader, has thrived in public school in what is one of the 10 poorest counties in Virginia.

Not all schools are equal and we are going to find, if we are at all honest, that all have good points and not so good points. It is not and never will be a black and white issue (and I’m not talking race.)

Happy New Year to you.


80 posted on 12/29/2012 12:34:45 PM PST by Gabz (Democrats for Voldemort.)
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To: Hope for the Republic
Do good people treat children, whose only crime was to be born, like prisoners? ( Just wondering) Why would good people seek work in these institutions, support them, and estabislh and cooperate with these prison-like measures?

And....What are the long term consequences for children ( whose only crime was to be born) if they are treated like prisoners for 13 years of their most formative years?

What are the consequences for the continuing freedom of our nation when armies of voters ( who have been treated like prisoners for 13 years of their childhood) then go to the polls as adults?

I am not the one who has disdain for difficult students. I am not criticizing the parenting skills of their parents. That seems to be the exclusive territory of the professional government employed teachers who frequent these schooling threads.

However....I do trust that this contempt and dismissive attitudes seen in many posts is not reflected in the professionalism shown in the classroom and with the parents.

If you would like to renew activity on old threads please do so. It is impolite to carry discussions from one thread to another. Since you are so well informed about Free Republic etiquette I shouldn't need to you remind you.

81 posted on 12/29/2012 12:37:44 PM PST by wintertime
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To: Gabz
Government schools: ( The good, the bad, the ugly)

There are examples of children who are overcoming what follows. Congratulation to them and their parents. It is possible.

All government owned and run schools, (the curriculum, textbooks, and worldview) are godlessly secular regardless of the nod made in God's direction with a Christmas carol or two or any banner proclaiming “In God we Trust”. It is not good to force godlessness on children or to force taxpayers to pay for it.

All government schools are a socialist, single-payer, and compulsory use entitlement. Children who attend risk learning that any government powerful enough to give them tuition-free schooling is powerful enough to give them lots of free stuff. That is not good for the child. It is wrong to force a taxpayer to pay for it.

All schools must restrict speech, press, assembly, expression of religion, and no school can be religiously neutral. These qualities are also found in prisons. When government does this, the children risk learning to be comfortable with government oppression and being treated like government prisoners. This is not a good lesson to learn. It is not good for the child. It is wrong to make the taxpayer pay for it.

The above can not be reformed because it is the foundational bricks upon which all government schooling is built. There is a solution: Begin privatization.

82 posted on 12/29/2012 12:52:57 PM PST by wintertime
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To: wintertime

All of the above is your personal opinion, and is no more valid than my opinion. It is also insulting and thus a violation of FR rules..........rules you have been here long enough to understand if you are as intelligent as you claim to be.

BTW - the textbooks are no different than those used in religious based schools. I know this for fact - it is not opinion........unlike your unfounded claim.


83 posted on 12/29/2012 1:22:28 PM PST by Gabz (Democrats for Voldemort.)
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To: wintertime; Hope for the Republic
It is impolite to carry discussions from one thread to another. Since you are so well informed about Free Republic etiquette I shouldn't need to you remind you.

Pot - meet - kettle.

That seems to be the exclusive territory of the professional government employed teachers who frequent these schooling threads.

I suggest you practice what you preach -- and obey the rules about personal insults.

84 posted on 12/29/2012 1:26:17 PM PST by Gabz (Democrats for Voldemort.)
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To: Hope for the Republic

Did you see in the video where the prison library was open but the school library was locked from the inside. I loved the alarm that sounded in the school at the end of the video.


85 posted on 12/29/2012 1:47:50 PM PST by wintertime
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To: wintertime
You did not answer a single on of my questions. This appears to be another Alynsky tactic that you utilize to its fullest. And in case you didn't notice the post notified the moderator of your serial abuse.
86 posted on 12/29/2012 2:48:47 PM PST by Hope for the Republic (The 1st amendment is protected by the 2nd amendment)
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To: Gabz
I just hope other people will report wintertime's relentless abuse.
87 posted on 12/29/2012 5:25:35 PM PST by verga (A nation divided by Zero!)
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To: verga
I just hope other people will report wintertime's relentless abuse.

It might help if you pointed out the abuse. Is it on this thread, or elsewhere?

88 posted on 12/29/2012 5:35:05 PM PST by fattigermaster
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To: verga

Hmmmmmmmmmm.............this thread had disappeared for several hours - along with all comments and now it is back. I wonder why?

I guess some are more equal than others - judging by what has been removed by the mods. Although I don’t understand why this opinion piece has remained in “news” when it is more fitting in bloggers/personal or, better yet, the Smokey Back Room.


89 posted on 12/29/2012 5:46:29 PM PST by Gabz (Democrats for Voldemort.)
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To: Gabz
I respectfully request that you not ping me or send private mail to me. Please feel free to comment as you like on my posts or threads, even using my name, but, please, no contact.

Politely and respectfully,

wintertime

90 posted on 12/29/2012 6:41:45 PM PST by wintertime
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To: wintertime

Ditto to you................


91 posted on 12/29/2012 7:10:26 PM PST by Gabz (Democrats for Voldemort.)
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To: verga; wintertime
Dear verga,

Sorry I didn't reply sooner, but I'm just starting to emerge from the latest cold.

Anyway, first, I notice that you only answered the least important point, the throw-away line, of my last post. LOL. Why am I not surprised?

The first main point of my post was to show you that by your own words, you agree in a general sense with wintertime - that that the single most important factor in educational success is a child's parents, not the sort of schooling method in use. And thus, even when public schools “succeed,” the real success accrues more to parents than to the schools. That is the premise that sustains the secondary question, why bother with public schools?

The second point is to demonstrate that public schools are suboptimal means of educating children. That they don't always fail, per se, but often fail to get the best results possible.

Not that they always and everywhere fail, but that they seldom help children develop to their highest potential, and more often actually get in the way, become a hindrance to learning.

The bottom line is that public schools just don't usually “add value,” at least not in proportion to their cost. You, yourself, trumpet the fact that you folks can't generally overcome the effects of bad parenting. I agree! So, why go through the expense?

I'm not suggesting, nor have I ever suggested, that everyone should homeschool. At times, I've estimated, optimistically, that as many as half of families could likely be good homeschoolers, if they were to make the effort and the sacrifice. But that leaves the other half.

Nor have I ever said that there is no proper role for government in primary and secondary education.

All I've said is that as currently configured, public schools are usually the worst choice for parents wishing to educate their children. But it is true that for many, the public school is currently the only choice.

At this time in our history, I don't think that Americans are going to make the tough choices needed to fix public schools.

A good place to start would be to ban teachers’ unions and punish and exile from education anyone who advocates for them. Teachers’ unions are intrinsically evil.

Another good starting point would be to abolish (or at least dramatically scale back the size and scope of action of) school system hierarchies, to make each school largely independent, like a charter school, and to encourage private businesses to buy and run most “public schools,” and run them on a competitive basis, with 100% school choice for every parent.

Perhaps providing tax credits to families for each child of school age that equal a high percentage of the average cost of public education would be a good thing to do. So if a school system is spending $20,000 per year per kid, then parents would receive a refundable tax credit of, say, $15,000 per year.

Disadvantage local school boards in running their own “company-owned” schools, giving favor to privately-owned and run “franchises” that obtain funding through the system, however it's configured.

Eliminate by law the bachelors degree for education. It is a fraud. Rather, require that teachers hold at least a four-year degree in the field they'd like to teach, or a related field (At my sons’ high school, there is a teacher with a masters degree in toxicology, requiring him to know a lot of biology and chemistry. Though he holds degrees in neither biology or chemistry, he teaches both subjects. Really well.). Add a course or two on pedagogy and the logistics of managing large numbers of children, especially for primary school teachers. Maintain separate degrees, preferably at a graduate level, for single-school administration.

Get rid of elected school boards. Unify the authority to spend the money (which usually inheres to a school board) with the responsibility to raise the money (which usually resides in an elected town, city or county council). Make the folks who come up with school budgets be directly responsible to the taxpayers for the taxes required to fund the schools.

In other words, blow up the current system, destroy or reduce most of the current hierarchical structures, make folks more directly responsible for their actions, retain the goal of universal access to education, make it competitively-based

I'm not going to do more than provide these few broad brushstrokes, I'm not going to delve into the details, because, frankly, these things just aren't going to happen anytime soon, and I'm not going to waste much of my time on educational fantasies.

For the time being, we're stuck with the system we have. We can, at best, help around the edges. The main goal of folks should be to starve the beast. At every opportunity, with every chance, at every turn, in every decision, take the path that reduces resources to the local public schools.

But public schools aren't really my focus. They mostly suck. They don't harm some kids, but other kids they do harm. They don't get in the way of getting an education for a large number of children, perhaps even a majority of them, but they hinder many and absolutely fail a large minority (at least 30%).

My focus has been on homeschooling, and expanding the space for homeschoolers to operate freely. My goal is to reduce as far as possible government interference in homeschooling, with the ultimate goal of banning governments from exercising any power whatsoever of any sort over homeschooling per se.

My next focus has been on the practical aspects of homeschooling, both in my own family, and in my community and among all homeschoolers.

I'm not anti-traditional schools. I sent my older son to Catholic high school, and my younger son is a junior at the same school. We considered strongly homeschooling through high school, but in balancing the trade-offs, one from the other, we chose a traditional school for their high school years, after having homeschooled from 1st (or in the case of my younger son, from pre-school) through 8th grade.

I'm not even anti-public school. Because, from my vantage point, every parent should first concern him or herself with his or her own children, and what's best for them. And at times, a public school may be the least-bad choice to make, especially where there are the [rare] public schools that have good academic programs and good academic track records.

But to the degree that I think about public education, my view is that the system is very broken, and we could do worse than to just shut down all the public schools and start from scratch.


sitetest

92 posted on 12/31/2012 7:45:51 AM PST by sitetest (If Roe is not overturned, no unborn child will ever be protected in law.)
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To: sitetest
But to the degree that I think about public education, my view is that the system is very broken, and we could do worse than to just shut down all the public schools and start from scratch.

I apologize for the misunderstanding. I largely agreed with what you had written in the previous thread and saw no need to comment further on it. Just as I largely agree with everything in this thread. I have held for a long time that Public schools work well (Not perfect) for the middle 80% the top 10% will do well no matter what, you could drop these kids in the middle of the jungle and they will come out a success. The "bottom" 10 we can do very little with. Whether this is due to lack of motivation, or some hadicapping condition I am not making a distinction.

I do disagree with your above statement for the reasons i outlined in my previous post. I taught at an inner city school. I think your estimation of 50% is very, I would say overly optimistic.

In suburban or rural communities you might be correct. But in the inner cities there are far to many enticements to not get an education already.

Changes MUST be made, but with so many people putting their hands up and saying "not my problem" nothing will get done.

And frankly I bear some of the guilt in this too. I had an opportunity to teach at an inner city school several years back. Instead I chose a rural school district in the middle of Nowhere Va. The money at the inner city was better, a lot better. My wife and I wanted a certain more laid back lifestyle. And I have to admit that I rather enjoy having the students call me Sir, rather than _other_ucker or A--hole. But one thing I know with absolute certainty. When I have to answer to God for my decisions I will be able to say with absolute certainty "I did the most good for the most number of students that I could, not all, but as many as I could."

And that is what it is about for me.

93 posted on 12/31/2012 12:20:39 PM PST by verga (A nation divided by Zero!)
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To: verga
I have held for a long time that Public schools work well (Not perfect) for the middle 80% the top 10% will do well no matter what, you could drop these kids in the middle of the jungle and they will come out a success.

I guess if you want to define a 10% that succeeds in life no matter what, that's one thing, but those aren't always the brightest or the best students. The bright kids sometimes don't get much from schooling and lose interest or focus as those at the bottom do, and those who do best in school aren't always the best prepared for adult life. Public education fails some of students in that smartest 10% or the 80% in the middle -- in fact all across the board.

I suspect public education "succeeds" (in some way and to some degree) for enough young people that abolition is too wild an idea to succeed, though. If so many people are so uneducated and so little interested in learning or even in restraining their children, there may be some sense in requiring that the children get some education or training provided by the government, though this is heresy to anarchists.

94 posted on 12/31/2012 12:46:49 PM PST by x
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To: verga
Dear verga,

“Just as I largely agree with everything in this thread..."

It's difficult to say that public schools “work well” for 80% of kids when 30% of kids don't even graduate from high school. And some number can't read the diploma they receive.

It may be that many of them wouldn't have graduated even if their schools weren't crappy, but even so, that hardly means that the public schools, in not actually harming them, “worked well.”

“I taught at an inner city school. I think your estimation of 50% is very, I would say overly optimistic.”

I'm not speaking only to an inner city population. I'm speaking universally.

That percentage will shrink over time as higher percentages of the population join the underclass as a result of fatherlessness. It's tough (though not impossible) to homeschool when you're a single mom. It's even tougher if you're a [public school] mis-educated never-married single mom raised by a [public school] mid-educated never-married single mom.

As that population grows, candidates for successful homeschooling will decline in numbers.

But 70% of children are still born to a married mom and dad, and moms and dads are BUILT to teach their own children. If only two-thirds of those married moms and dads are truly capable, that's still over 45% of folks.

Folks who could, but don't because they don't wanna, are categorized as “selfish,” not “incapable.”

“Changes MUST be made, but with so many people putting their hands up and saying ‘not my problem’ nothing will get done.”

That's not the problem. The problem is that the folks - including homeschoolers - with creative ideas and potential solutions are locked out of the power process, and those who benefit from the continuing disaster known as the public school system are in charge and have nearly all the power.

You made an evil comment a few threads ago to the effect of how tragic it is that homeschoolers had abandoned public schools, how much better they could be if homeschoolers had just lent a hand. I forgive you your blasphemy, but I doubt you'll do less than one million years in purgatory for it.

Beyond being an informed voter, homeschoolers are actually locked out of any voice in public schools. We sure as hell aren't going to sacrifice our children to better the system. Our first duty to God is to rear and care for our children. We have an obligation first to do our best for our children, not to use our children to service the needs of a bloated and dysfunctional bureaucratic organism.

But once we make the decision to homeschool, we are literally physically exiled from the public school systems. Most public school systems won't even let homeschoolers participate in public school extracurricular activities, no less have a voice in how to run public schools.

What can we do to help change public schools? Join the PTA of the local public school?? I'm not sure we're going to get a warm welcome there. Run for school board? Oh, yeah, that's a great idea. People with their kids stuck in public school are going to vote in droves for people who are perceived (wrongly) as too good to put their own kids in the same public schools.

Even folks with their kids in traditional private schools are called “hypocrites” when they talk about public schools. Certainly, we conservatives accuse liberals of hypocrisy on this charge every day of the week.

It's not that homeschoolers say, “It's not my problem.” The two reasons why homeschoolers are ignored if we try to be involved with public schools is 1) we're considered hypocrites, unworthy of attention and 2) we have a significantly different view of education, a broader, more complete view, and our potential solutions are so radical to those stuck inside the mental prison of their own limited experiences that they more than feel justified, on the few occasions that they listen to us, to going back to ignoring us.

The fact is that many homeschoolers offer plenty of good ideas to improve public schools. I offered a few to you in my last post. Which you roundly ignored.

I readily share my own ideas with anyone who will listen. I'm a Knight of Columbus, Past Grand Knight of my own council. As such, I've often been at events at church, either running them or working them, with lots of other parishioners, who know me, who see me in a position of leadership, and with whom I've spoken. I tell 'em my ideas when the subject comes up. Which is frequently, since they often take the time to compliment my wife and me for our two sons and how they've done academically over the years.

But they act as if I have three eyes and a tail when I tell 'em what I think. There was a buddy of mine in my council - I've known him for about 15 years, we're pretty good friends. He ran for school board in the county. I told him some of my ideas. First of all, he was so uninformed about the county's public school system that it took me nearly and hour just to correct the basic objectives facts he got wrong. In terms of how to reform public education, he didn't think there was much to be done that couldn't be fixed by a small increase in the budget to fund this or that latest educratic fad. And the guy is a REPUBLICAN!

So the best we can do is to serve as examples, to model what real, effective education can look like. And to rear good, decent persons who love God and who learn to use their God-given talents well.

“And frankly I bear some of the guilt...”

Maybe, maybe not.

Teaching is a vocation. That's whether you're teaching your own kids in your own homeschool, or someone else’s kids in a traditional school. God gives ALL parents the vocation to teach their own children. But he only gives a small number of individuals the vocation to teach, on a long-term basis, other parents’ children. And there are vocations even within that vocation. Not everyone is called to enter hell and offer some respite to the damned that lie within. Only you know whether or not that was truly God's call to you. If so, then perhaps you are guilty. If not, then it's a good thing you went elsewhere.

"The money at the inner city was better, a lot better."

The worst of all possible motivations to teach in a difficult environment - the money is better. What an effective way to guarantee a bad faculty.

Few things are worse than a bad teacher. Unfortunately, they abound.


sitetest

95 posted on 12/31/2012 2:21:08 PM PST by sitetest (If Roe is not overturned, no unborn child will ever be protected in law.)
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