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The rich will pay more taxes, Boehner says
KITV-TV via MSNBC ^ | 12/5/2012 | KITV-TV

Posted on 12/05/2012 9:32:33 AM PST by Qbert

Taxes on the wealthy are going up, House Speaker John Boehner conceded on Wednesday in challenging President Barack Obama to sit down with him to hammer out a deal for avoiding the fiscal cliff.

The statement to reporters reflected how negotiations on reducing the nation's chronic federal deficits and debt have evolved since Obama's re-election last month.

Republicans once opposed to any new revenue in their quest to shrink government now realize Obama's victory and public support for the president's campaign theme of higher taxes on the wealthy leave them with little negotiating leverage.

Less than four weeks from the automatic tax increases and spending cuts of the fiscal cliff, GOP leaders face a choice: Agree to Obama's demand to hold down tax rates on most Americans while allowing higher rates on the wealthiest 2 percent, or be blamed for everyone's taxes going up in 2013.

The major unresolved question of negotiations involving the White House and congressional leaders is whether eliminating tax deductions and loopholes -- as proposed by House Republicans -- can raise enough revenue without hitting middle class Americans too hard.

(Excerpt) Read more at ...

TOPICS: Breaking News; Government; News/Current Events; Politics/Elections
KEYWORDS: boehner; establishment; gope; rinos; stupidparty; taxhikes; traitors
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To: Timber Rattler

Conservatives are the spineless ones. We continually take this abuse from the GOP over and over...never doing anything. Staying in the party isn’t working.

101 posted on 12/05/2012 12:34:56 PM PST by vmivol00 (I won't be reconstructed.)
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To: AnAmericanAbroad
“Thanks for reminding me to buy a few shares in Johnson & Johnson and Unilever (K-Y Jelly and Vaseline, respectively).”

Even in this tough economic times, the entrepreneurial spirit is alive and well. To bad we can't transfer this to useless Dumbocrats.

I'll buy some shares too! ;-)

102 posted on 12/05/2012 12:35:24 PM PST by Artcore
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To: Qbert

Republican House Members.Fire Boener.NOW.

103 posted on 12/05/2012 12:38:32 PM PST by puppypusher (The World is going to the dogs.)
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To: Axenolith
The party can’t be tarred with the failure or with obstinance. I will tar them for 'indifference' and I will tar them with failure to oppose new taxes as a lot of them vowed to do just that. What was the point of even keeping the house if they are not going to flex their muscle and just rubberstamp everything. they can pass anythign they want in the house, why not pass what they want and make the senate either vote it down or ignore it. then they become the party of solutions and work and make the other party the party of obstruction.
104 posted on 12/05/2012 12:39:17 PM PST by HenryArmitage (it was not meant that we should voyage far.)
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To: Qbert

how does this work? when will we know if anyone else is in the hunt?

105 posted on 12/05/2012 12:40:55 PM PST by HenryArmitage (it was not meant that we should voyage far.)
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To: Jack Hammer

“...I understand what you’re saying; however, I’d be a lot more well-disposed to letting the lemmings rush to the river if they didn’t insist on taking me with them...”

May I suggest that conservatives are just as much lemmings as the Sheeple who keep voting for more goodies that someone else (or some future generation) will pay for. Let us admit the truth: there is no appetite for spending cuts among voters. And why should there be? They aren’t paying for the services they receive now and some demogogic politician is saying that Daddy Warbucks will pay for them if only the mean Republicans will stop defending him.

A substantial majority of voters believe this to be true. Under these circumstances, what can Boehner do?

If conservatives refuse to raise meaningful revenues, the deficits will metastasize and the economy will collapse when Treasury is no longer able to service the debt at reasonable interest rates. We will be partially at fault, having clung to a moribund principle (LOW TAXES ARE ALWAYS GOOD!) when the conditions by which that principle can be actualized were long dead and buried.

Boehner has two choices. One, he can negotiate the best tax and spending deal that the demogogue will accept, or two, he can walk away from the table and let the government go over the cliff.

Boehner has chosen the first option as the least destructive. I can’t blame him; it’s probably the prudent thing to do.

I do not understand why so many on this board do blame Boeher, calling him everything from a traitor to a drunk while offering no reasonable alternative strategy, just a great deal of whinging about the unfairness of it all. Note to Freepers: WE LOST THE ELECTION!

I recommend that we go over the cliff. It will be painful and we will go into a recession. But the recession will end and we will be fiscally stronger when it does. At that time, conservatives can revive the argument that we need both lower taxes and fiscal balance to achieve long-term prosperity, a combination that is intirely predicated on spending restraint and entitlement reform. I think we will have a sympathetic audience.

Now we do not. It is foolish to claim otherwise and blame those on our side who live in a reality-based universe and must operate within it. Time to move on.

106 posted on 12/05/2012 1:00:22 PM PST by irish_links
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To: irish_links

No we won the House of Representatives and now we want to show our power. Boehner is a big baby. We want him removed and we want no debt ceiling increase. We want no revenue increase. If we go over the cliff— fine. at least we stood our ground. All the representatives we elected promised spending cuts and no revenue increases and that is what we want now that we WON .

107 posted on 12/05/2012 1:20:23 PM PST by willowdean
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To: willowdean
“...We want no revenue increase. If we go over the cliff— fine. at least we stood our ground....”

That's fine, so long as everyone understands that taxes will go up dramatically, the GOP will be blamed for engaging in (arguably) destructive brinksmanship in service of the “rich” and probably for the tax hikes too, and the economy will be thrust back into recession. What will not happen is the achievement of your stated goals: no higher taxes, no additional revenues.

I submit that we should go over the cliff and do it on the basis of principle. That is, stating clearly that we support low taxes and limited government. But if the Left insists on the maintenance of a bloated, unrestrained government it must pay for it, too. Live by the sword, die by the sword.

It amazes me that citizens of a free republic must learn the lesson once again that collectivism in all its guises is a recipe for disaster. But, learn it we must and the only way to do that is to give the people what they want, good and hard.

I am reminded of the famous quote from The Sun Also Rises. Asked how he went bankrupt, the spendthrift British toff, Michael Campbell replies, “Two ways, gradually and then suddenly.” The U.S. is in the gradual phase. The sudden phase will come like a thief in the night. We all will be better served if we arrest him before he strikes.

108 posted on 12/05/2012 1:57:53 PM PST by irish_links
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To: willowdean
It also is worth noting that the Nordquist notion that if you starve the beast of tax revenue, Leviathan must necessarily succumb and shrink is utterly discredited. The experience of the past decade demonstrates that no such constraint exists so long as the Treasury can borrow at low interest rates. But like the judgment day, no one knows the hour at which the Treasury's “Carte Blanche” will expire but when it comes the consequences will be dire.

Conservatives must begin to prepare for that day as our civilization and hallowed republic are in peril. Pointless exercises in demonstrating our power (really impotence) that are destined to fail are merely empty gestures paving the way to self-destruction.

Mark Levin and Rush Limbaugh can rail away at RINOs and so forth all day long as they are merely entertaining a paying audience. God bless them. But men like Boehner must actually take responsibility for their actions. Don't be too quick to condemn a responsible party for not following the advice of dilettantes.

109 posted on 12/05/2012 2:08:25 PM PST by irish_links
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To: ridesthemiles

“I know many people who have built up their businesses and have enjoyed the ability to travel, gamble, or do as they wish with the funds they have.”

And I know people in that same category who enthusiastically voted for Obama because they believed that they could shift the cost of their healthcare on to the taxpayers, thereby keeping more of their income for discretionary spending/personal luxuries.

110 posted on 12/05/2012 2:10:06 PM PST by BlatherNaut
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To: CatherineofAragon

“This was supposed to be the most important election of my lifetime...”

Well.... it was.

A lot of folks (especially around here) are still in denial about that...

111 posted on 12/05/2012 2:26:14 PM PST by Road Glide
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To: Qbert

Did anybody really believe he’d stand up to Obama?

112 posted on 12/05/2012 2:52:06 PM PST by wastedyears (I don't want to live on this planet anymore.)
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To: Qbert

Thus al Quaida leaves us alone, as we self destruct via the Beltway boys and girls.

113 posted on 12/05/2012 2:54:41 PM PST by King Moonracer (Bad lighting and cheap fabric, that's how you sell clothing.....)
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To: sirchtruth
How could ANYONE who is a conservative support republicans and the GOP?

I'm with you. It's been stated many times in the last few days that a THIRD PARTY, expressly for Conservatives and other disgruntled voters, needs to be formed now.

I would think the time to do so has never been more right.

114 posted on 12/05/2012 3:34:58 PM PST by VideoDoctor
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To: Qbert

Nazi Bonehead doesn’t say much about cuts, does he?
Scandal his Nazi a$$ out of leadership.

115 posted on 12/05/2012 5:46:39 PM PST by tennmountainman
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To: Zuben Elgenubi

“I have never seen John without a cigarette or martini in his hand.”

Appreciate your insight, since you’ve been around him. I don’t have any personal animosity toward the guy, I’m just sick of all these careerists who spend 20-50 years in D.C. and despite the rotating parties in control, the country continues to go down the toilet.

If Boehner is not willing to stand up to BathHouse Barry, he should resign as Speaker. Since he is unwilling to do so, he should be deposed. We’ll just have to wait and see if some of the conservatives work up the courage to publicly take Boehner on.

116 posted on 12/05/2012 6:12:37 PM PST by SharpRightTurn ( White, black, and red all over--America's affirmative action, metrosexual president.)
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To: Qbert

I don’t see what all the fuss is about reverting to Clinton-era taxes. According to the media and the Democrats, the tax rate was fair and at the perfect level for everyone. Why, we even had a surplus which, although unconstitutional, the liberals were ecstatic about. So once again, why are the liberals so upset about going over the “cliff”. /s

117 posted on 12/05/2012 6:27:01 PM PST by Prince of Space (Be Breitbart, baby!)
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To: HenryArmitage

I was just saying that is their possible reason for a “present” vote.

118 posted on 12/05/2012 6:48:30 PM PST by Axenolith (Government blows, and that which governs least, blows least...)
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To: Qbert

FUJB - im out of here.

The GOP does not represent me any more. I’, not rich by any stretch 0 but boehner and the gop can rot in hell for all i care

119 posted on 12/05/2012 6:51:09 PM PST by GlockThe Vote (The Obama Adminstration: 2nd wave of attacks on America after 9/11)
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To: Axenolith

no. no. didn’t meant to make it seem like I was attacking you. I thank you for answering my question.

120 posted on 12/05/2012 6:51:34 PM PST by HenryArmitage (it was not meant that we should voyage far.)
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To: Qbert

And by rich, he and Zero mean “anybody with a job.”

121 posted on 12/05/2012 8:23:00 PM PST by Excuse_My_Bellicosity (Liberalism is a social disease.)
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To: Qbert

Why is everyone defending the rich?

122 posted on 12/05/2012 8:42:55 PM PST by Vendome (Don't take life so seriously, you won't live through it anyway)
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To: Qbert

Leaderless RINO File.

123 posted on 12/05/2012 8:43:03 PM PST by Graewoulf ((Traitor John Roberts' Obama"care" violates Sherman Anti-Trust Law, AND the U.S. Constitution.))
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To: Qbert


Goodbye Republican party. No way will I be associated wiith cowards and wimps. I have little doubt the “plan” is to get enough GOP votes to pass this cowardly crap - - and promising those quislings a boatload of campaign cash for their votes - - while giving as many Republicans as possible a “pass” so they can say they voted against it and were “vehemently opposed”, etc., etc., blah blah blah.


In my opinion, any Republican who votes for Boehner to remain Speaker should have his ass primaried out into the street.

124 posted on 12/05/2012 8:52:01 PM PST by Lancey Howard
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To: Vendome
Why is everyone defending the rich?

While I dislike the term "rich" since it's become a pejorative, those who have done well are the drivers of our economy. It's the truth that those who have the savvy to accumulate wealth are job creators. Without these intelligent, creative, enterprising people, our economy would collapse.

Most of us work for these so-called "rich" people and I'm thankful for them. They shouldn't be punished but encouraged.

125 posted on 12/05/2012 10:07:25 PM PST by re_nortex (DP...that's what I like about Texas.)
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To: pfony1
I think it’s time for someone to start an “American Patriots’ Party”.

I've often found myself dreaming of a good Conservative party.  Here's what I see as a problem with that in the short term, only as a strategic review.  In truth, there's nothing wrong with it as a premise.  IMO, there is something wrong with it if we study the idea and how it will play out.

Half the Republicans leave the party.  Half remain.  Democrats have half the registered voters (roughly), the Republicans have one quarter, and the new party has about a quarter.
  The Democrat one half beats the new party and the Republican party.  Neither one can go up against the Democrats.

Thus the Democrats move on appointing the worst of the worst and winning elections. Not good at all.

Okay, what happens if that half of the Republicans instead of starting a new party, re-registers as Democrats?  All of a sudden one third of the Democrat party is Conservative.  All of a sudden all Democrat primaries see at least 33% of the vote automatically going to the most moderat Democrat.  In early primaries where you have five Democrats running, these Conservatives could easily be competitive as the general Democrats split their vote.  And if the Conservative vote is augmented by the more moderate Democrats out there, we might easily block idiots like Obama from getting the nomination.  In addition, in early primaries where Demcorats are crossing over to screw with the Republican party, by selecting the most Leftist Republican, it will take far less for us to dominate the Democrat party.  Anotherwords, their party (time) every four years will be over.  That alone would be an improvement.

Then what happens with the Republican party?  My take is that all of a sudden, the Republican party only has 25% of the registered voters.  The party either dies, or it starts fielding decent candidates to draw the Conservatives they thought they didn't need, back.

If worse comes to worse, the Republicans who re-registered as Democrats can cast a vote for the Republicans during the general elections.

That party would collect money to help conservative candidates win Republican primaries and then win the elections. That party would NOT contribute one penny to fund the GOP’s shameful in-bred “establishment”.

Except there's one problem.  The Democrats are helping the Republican party to choose their nominee.  The Republicans are allowing it.  Instead of decertifying open primary states in the Republican nomination process, they blindly allow the Democrats to game us over and over.  Do you want to contribute to Republican candidates when they simply can't win?  I honestly don't.

Clearly, ELECTIBLE conservatives are needed. By that, I mean people who are smart enough to see the rape-related word-traps so eagerly set by the stooge-media and AVOID stepping into them.

I agree, but look at this year.  Our best and brightest were eliminated in short order.  Why?  Because the Democrats are already doing to us, what I am suggesting we do to them.

People who are smart enough to say to those stooges, “Your question has NOTHING whatsoever to do with the critical issue of today: how do we stop this White House from pushing America’s Middle Class deeper and deeper into poverty. Take Obama-flation for example. That is a HUGE TAX on America’s Middle Class. Or do you think that the Middle Class doesn’t buy food? Or that retired folks don’t buy gasoline?

I agree with you.  I still think there are some very clear reasons why simply starting a new party won't work here.  That's my take on it.

I do appreciate what your goal is.  We do share that.

126 posted on 12/06/2012 12:08:58 AM PST by DoughtyOne (Hurricane Sandy..., a week later and over 60 million Americans still didn't have power.)
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To: Zuben Elgenubi


127 posted on 12/06/2012 12:09:45 AM PST by DoughtyOne (Hurricane Sandy..., a week later and over 60 million Americans still didn't have power.)
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To: stephenjohnbanker

LOL, agreed.

128 posted on 12/06/2012 12:10:18 AM PST by DoughtyOne (Hurricane Sandy..., a week later and over 60 million Americans still didn't have power.)
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To: exit82

Thanks Exit82. Sure wish we didn’t have to resort to this.

I’ll be re-registering within the next week. I’ve got some other things going on right now.

Read this. See what you think of it. If you disagree, tell me so, and why. I won’t give you grief over it.

129 posted on 12/06/2012 12:13:26 AM PST by DoughtyOne (Hurricane Sandy..., a week later and over 60 million Americans still didn't have power.)
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To: exit82

BTW: Hi! Hope things are going good for you.

All the best...


130 posted on 12/06/2012 12:14:15 AM PST by DoughtyOne (Hurricane Sandy..., a week later and over 60 million Americans still didn't have power.)
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To: stephenjohnbanker

I agree.

131 posted on 12/06/2012 12:15:23 AM PST by DoughtyOne (Hurricane Sandy..., a week later and over 60 million Americans still didn't have power.)
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To: irish_links

“..The “rich” already DO pay more taxes. A LOT more, in fact....”

I think what people don’t like is rich people paying a lower tax rate than middle class people. The average tax rate for the 400 richest families in the US in 2011 was 19%, which is lower than what a wager earner making $100,000 a year pays. Hard to explain why this ia fair.

132 posted on 12/06/2012 1:10:49 AM PST by juno67
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To: DoughtyOne; Buckhead

D1, I read your post on the third party start-up.

I know for myself. morally, registering as a Democrat is something I can never, ever do. I have even told Democrats here in our small town here in southern DE, even friends who are candidates, that I will NOT vote for them if they appear on a Dem ticket, because the Dems are the party of abortion, homosexuality, and Communism. Since Dems here are not as far left as other Dems—YET—they are a bit shocked—but I tell them, then why are YOU in the Dem party? If you are a church goer, a Catholic,a Methodist, etc—how can you justify aligning yourself with an anti-God, anti-Bible, anti-freedom party? Then, you can hear the wheels turning in their addled brains, because they have never been confronted like that.

I know third party is daunting, but I now know I do not any longer have a home in the Republican Party. They do not represent me, and the Dems never will.

I have spent the better part of the last twenty years, since 1992, trying get us back on the path that Reagan started us on.

We fought against Clinton for eight long years, in the middle of which, when the threat to America was clear that Clinton posed we got—BOB Dole in 1996! Wow— what sheer brilliance! I’ll bet the Dems could not believe their good fortune,as they steamrolled over him. Pretty heady times for the Dems—dispatching two WW2 heroes in a row. Remember “those are OUR planes now!”??

I saw, that even though those of us on this website helped to get Clinton impeached in Dec. 1998, the Trent Lott-led Republican Senate refused to do their job and remove a law breaking President from office. I knew then we were badly compromised. February 12, 1999 was a very dark day for America when that happened—on Lincoln’s birthday, too, and the significance was not lost on me.

Still, I soldiered on—biting my nails for six weeks while we fought to keep the Dems from stealing the 2000 election like they did in 1960, and how they are so good at doing since.

I fought alongside the Swiftboat Vets in 2004 when they were maligned by Bush and Rove—they turned the tide for Bush in the month of August, 2004, and they were called vigilantes by Bush and Rove for their efforts. For shame!Even when Dan Rather was exposed, it was with no help from the GOP. Freeper Buckhead saved the day, for which he was not even acknowledged by the Republicans.

Then, they whole second term of Bush, 2005 to 2009, was a complete and utter incompetent waste, with the Republicans having to be fought on Miers, immigration( and no wall—thanks Kay Bailey Hutchison!), the will to win in Iraq, losing the Senate and the House to the subhumanoids Reid and Pelosi—thanks, Rove!—the prescription benefit which did not win us one vote, the bailouts, and the best of whole—the Manchurian candidate John McCain in 2008. You and I had to swallow REAL HARD to pull that lever for that no good traitor, but I consoled myself by voting for the girl.

We lost—handily. Probably stolen too, but the whole 2008 election was a nightmare. Even Stevie Wonder could see Obama would be a disaster, but the GOP failed us yet again.

In 2009, we revolted, formed the Tea Party, marched on DC in 2009 and 2010, and thanks to Sarah Palin and folks like us in the trenches, managed to elect a Republican House by a wide margin—for the sole purpose of repealing Obamacare. Boehner got his old job back-—thanks to Sarah and us—for which again, we were not even thanked. Well, the Pubbies could not do a thing—Boehner went golfing with Zero and I knew the fix was in. Instead of taking a stand in August 2011, we got the stupid “Super Committee” and sequestration, and a credit downgrade anyway, Way to go Boehner and McConnell!. Now, here we are in Dec. 2012 facing the fiscal cliff that NO ONE in DC said we would ever be facing, but it was too horrible.

Oh, and another thing—here in 2010 I personally witnessed up close the political assassination of Christine O’Donnell, a real conservative who beat the liberal goon Mike Castle fair and square, watching the GOP establishment—like Rove—personally try to sabotage her campaign— instead of trying to win a seat for the Senate. As a result of that flustercluck, we removed the entire leadership of the GOP in DE, but it was too late—the Dems retained a Senate seat we could have taken.You’ll note the same thing was done to Akin by the same operatives this year. After all, why fight for a seat in the Senate when you can give it to your opponent by knifing him in the back, even if he is wrong. The Dems ALWAYS fight for every seat.

Then we have the 2012 election. Romney, the most liberal Republican you could imagine, becomes our candidate, eliminating all traditional Republican and conservative primary candidates. Clobbers them with money and attack ads.

He was a bridge too far for many, but I clawed my way over the bridge rather then allow that SOB Obama another term.

Yes, I would even vote for Romney, because I loved my country more, and know that a second Obama term will be the worst four years in American history.

So, you see, D1, I have learned my lesson. I will never allow Lucy to hold the football for me again. I did not leave the GOP, the GOP left me. Unlike Reagan, I have no where to go, and that is by design—of the Dems and the Rovites—and I can see that.

Look at Boehner since Election Day. He is the firewall, and he is made of paper. What a disaster for the Republic!

And like Romney, the enmity and fight is reserved, not for Obama and the despicable Dems, but for us good soldier conservatives. We are the backbone of the GOP and we once again get spit upon.

Well, I’m done with them—that is why I changed my registration to unaffiliated yesterday. I gave money, time, prayer, effort to win this year, knowing the future of my family, friends and nation was on the line.

And the feckless GOP fizzled, even in the face of rampant and blatant voter fraud, for which the Dems know they will not be contested.

Funny how in EVERY close race, coast to coast—the Democrat won. And what do we get—something like, well we have to beat them in 2014 or else.

Or else what?

The damage is now done.In the America of our youth, if we reached this point, the military would have stepped in already. The opposition party is in on the arrangement—the plundering of America and the enslavement of its citizens.

So, the only alternative is a third party. Just like the Republican Party was formed in 1854 because the Whigs were without a moral center concerning slavery, we will start a new party to make the GOP the Whigs of the 21st Century.

My vitriol is not meant for you, my FRiend,I want to make that clear. It is meant for the Rove led, Jeb Bush loving, pansy GOP-E, that has betrayed me and mine for the very last time.

The veil has been lifted. America lives in me and in you, and while we have breath, it will breathe. Dark days are ahead, and the GOP is aiding and abetting a criminal enterprise called the Democrat Party of America.

And I will have no part in that. A pox on both their houses.

I refuse to be used again. Twenty years is enough.The entire Republican leadership in both houses is compromised. Only a handful of real Americans are left in DC, and they are being marginalized as we speak.

The Dems went all out this year, knowing full year that the party that lost would not survive. They cheated their way to victory. They now not only have the power and the money, they are eliminating their competition.

And the GOP stands there, not even knowing what it them.They know this election was stolen, but who do they blame? Us! When their liberal as hell candidate failed, it was our fault, because we did not love illegals enough. What horseh#t!

I cannot be marginalized any more than I am right at this moment. I will take the chance on a third party, knowing I may not even live long enough to see it become a majority.

But at this point, no other choice is left us. At least Reagan, when he left the Dems, had somewhere to go. We have to start our own new home.

God bless you, FRiend, and keep you and yours in the coming night. I feel it in my bones so deeply, that we are heading into a horrible time that maybe you and I have not even contemplated the full breadth of yet. It feels like 1939 or 1860 to me, the very brief calm before the storm. And I hate all of those who brought us to this point. And I hate that we risk extinguishing the very bright light of freedom that a group of men of sacred honor bequeathed to us in 1776.

133 posted on 12/06/2012 5:31:25 AM PST by exit82 ("The Taliban is on the inside of the building" E. Nordstrom 10-10-12)
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To: DoughtyOne

At this point, fighting on as Republicans regardless of the representatives propensity for gutless caving, is a waste. It allows social turnover of what remains of hard working folk who understand the constitution and cements the entrenchment of the lefts ideas and habits into a younger generation.

It is inevitable that we will have either a hard “reset” to reality with a lot of social turmoil or a total collapse. It’s going to go easier on us getting that over with sooner rather than later and letting the cluster of gutless pansies currently at the helm of the Republican party get their way is going to make that occurance “later”, ergo, harder...

134 posted on 12/06/2012 8:41:01 AM PST by Axenolith (Government blows, and that which governs least, blows least...)
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To: Qbert

There is no way I can express my deep hatred for Boehner. It borders psychotic.

135 posted on 12/06/2012 3:23:46 PM PST by Fledermaus (The Republic is Dead: Collapse the system. Let the Dems destroy the economy!)
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To: Qbert
As Rush pointed out, Boehner is now negotiating with himself --and will soon no doubt hammer out a compromise that is acceptible to Obama.

I don't think America even with all its faults, deserves this kind of pusillanimous failure.

136 posted on 12/07/2012 4:36:29 PM PST by hinckley buzzard
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