Posted on 08/18/2012 8:01:20 PM PDT by ConservativeStatement
Sorry, does not apply in this case because "recognize thread, draw and aim" were already done.
#1 - police had ALREADY identified the threat.
#2 - police had already drawn weapon and had them on trigger, on target. That 1.5 reaction time becomes 0.5 reaction time since the officers aleady were aiming at perceived threat with fingers on trigger.
MAYBE a person could cover 7 feet before an alert defender could shoot, who has already drawn down on the threat and has one in the chamber and a finger on the trigger.
Even if they had their guns at low ready, there is still no way that guy could close on the cops before being drilled repeatedly.
That is no 21 foot threat. Not with drawn guns on target and fingers on the trigger. I don't want to pretend that a determined assailant can't take bullet hits and still close and make a serious injury in a knife attack. So yes, that guy's proximity to the cops was definitely a threat. But his demeanor was not. Also, if the cop felt in fear for their lives at that distance, they could have taken some steps back to buy some time and would still retain control of the situation.
The guy had no car to flee and they had a K9 in the event the shooting victim attempted to flee. He ain't outrunning no police dog.
Moreover, when did the guy ever even take a step in their direction? Never. He was walking away. Massive negligent disproportionate over-reaction by the cops. Massive. And all the while, they had a K9 on site to deal with the threat.
I won't call this murder, but it is manslaughter and serious negligence.
Good thing there was video, or this would be another "he had charged us and was closing fast, giving us no option but to shoot. Video proves he was moving away, so that lie is debunked before it could be used.
Best post on the thread so far.
How many of them hit their intended target?....Probably not may. In 1977 I saw this coming. Some departments in our area went to automatics to “match the criminals’ firepower.” At the range Us guys with ‘wheels’ shot six rounds in the”x” every time. The auto’s fired all sixteen rounds (in very close to the same time) and maybe got 2-3 in “x”. I remember thinking there is going to be a lot of ricochets and background hits soon.
It did not look like “fear” to me at all. It looked and sounded like they wanted him dead.
only 46 must have run out of bullets. Maybe they can put in an order for more before the government buys them all up.
This is exactly why we have tasers. These guys were itching to shoot someone. There were several rounds fired after he went down.
this picture is no good need one when he was 12 buying skittles for his sick mama.
The Police have to face perpetrators of crime every day.
Was this use of deadly force justified?
Police are trained to respond with deadly force if a perpetrator is brandishing or pointing a deadly weapon at them or at another.
A knife is categorized as a deadly weapon in Police training.The police are not trained to mitigate the use of force when faced with a deadly weapon.This is why all 6 officers responded as they did. They are trained to do so.
If Hall had dropped the knife, he would have been arrested.Hall wanted to close with the police or the police dog so he could stab with the knife.As a result he was shot by all six officers, and died immediately.
Is it the proper use of deadly force? According to police , it is the proper use of deadly force.However, it is unlikely that the City Council of Saginaw will agree with that conclusion.The council will not be able to reprimand the police officers involved, IF they followed police procedure ( The Police Union will not allow it.)
The answer to this situation is for the council to change police procedure, and indicate that a knife is not a deadly weapon unless the perpetrator is 5 feet away or less, ( not true, knives can be thrown.), and make a tazer response procedurally necessary.
I think the police were justified at law in the use of deadly force, it is a justified hoimicide.I do not believe the police were morally justified in this group homicide, but the upside is that not one police officer or the police dog was slashed with Hall’s knife in an attempt to subdue Hall and arrest him.
The Saginaw City Council must address the moral issue.It will not go away.
“If the police are intent on murder, do THEY forfeit their rights? SHOULD a free people stand up to murdering police, or should we go quietly into death?”
You’re absolutely right. A police officer should be man enough to take at least one bullet or knife wound to the chest before firing.
“A taser was surely indicated”
Would you bet your life on the effectiveness of a taser? That is the question here. Let me get 15 feet away from you with a knife, get into a “karate stance” as one witness says on the tape, and see if you can put me down, not just hit me, but totally stop me, before I stab you in the heart and kill you. In that situation, really, you would risk using a taser?
“They had their guns out and aimed at him.
Why didn’t they release the dog?”
Of course I can’t answer that. Maybe they really were trying to end it peacefully and the guy started advancing on an officer and there wasn’t time to release the dog. Maybe the guy was standing there with a knife waiting for the dog and they didn’t want their dog to get stabbed.
There are too many armchair quarterbacks on this thread for me. People have the luxury of watching the video 10 times making judgement calls when the police had literally seconds to make their decisions. I am not a police supporter in abuse cases, but as I’ve said 100 times, police are not obligated to get their asses beat, get shot, or get stabbed as a condition of their employment. If you decide to use force against a police officer you should expect overwhelming force in return. That’s just how it works.
Pure homicide.
More and more of this stuff out there.
Outstanding post. It’s much more understandable now. I would see the city council change the distance to 20 feet from your 5 feet, but classify knives non-deadly-weapons outside that range. If the perp approaches inside the 20 feet perimeter, it becomes a deadly-force justification.
Would be neat if some inventer created a laser perimeter-designator. A laser spins in some fashion to actually indicate, on the ground, a given perimeter. Would be useful in all manners of situations, my proposed city-council-law amendment included.
The most intelligent post so far....most of the rest are obviously posted by Freepers who are, or were, unjustifiably incarcerated in prisons throughout this wonderful country.
This time the cops kept their own dog locked up, so even he was safe. Otherwise he’d be out there snarling at a baby or something. (SEE: Anaheim riot)
Then there was that New York city thing where the fellow obeyed the cops and brought out his wallet whereupon a couple of them pumped nearly 50 rounds into him. I think they had to reload to do that one!
As a general rule it is best to neither obey nor ignore police orders ~ and that's the problem. Just keep your hands in the air.
Reminds me of what a future world may be like, most of the Police become like Judge Dredd, they are judge, jury and executioner all in one.
No arrest, no jail, no lawyers for you.
Its no wonder all the agencies are stocking up on ammo, enough to shoot everyone at least 30 times?
You see its like this, the police are finding that “less lethal” just isn’t working so far, the perps are shrugging off taser, bags, pepper spray. Plus these perps may have some real firepower with a converted full auto firearm.
Or they may have an IED or bio weapon, so the police will react, I cannot judge this action right or wrong, but I could predict it will happen more often.
Doncha’ jus’ lub’ it when these guys blow off a couple of magazines in a residential district ~ building codes weren’t designed for that.
You did know they are lethal weapons, right?
Don't be using it on a baby to make him jump eh ~ you can easily kill babies, the elderly and fat white guys with heart trouble.
BTW, when it seems like it's not working ~ you know, when the target won't get up no matter how loud and often you utter your commands, that means IT WORKED so don't keep chucking them in the crotch with that thing. They are not getting a buzz on.
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