Obama And Romney Are Wrong: Outsourcing Is Actually America At Its Best

Forbes ^ | 07/28/2012 | Harry Binswanger

[DoughtyOne]

Here, hope this helps:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/2911916/posts?page=199#199

[1rudeboy]

If you have a source, or facts, to back up your numbers, I would be very interested to see them. Please do not link to a commielib site. Thanks in advance.

[central_va]

Here is the correct question: We can recruit sailors and soldiers and train them in a few months, lots of them. You can't start a steel mill from scratch in months. It would take years for the first steel mill to come on line. By then every ship and tank we had in reserve may be gone, war lost. That leaves only the nuclear option. Great, off shore everything so all we have left, with out a conventional deterrent, are nuclear weapons which is always a lose-lose situation. All in the name of "free trade".

Is it really worth the risk?

[1rudeboy]

Can’t wait to get home and spam you with links, wait, as if . . . never mind, that would be stupid.

[Toddsterpatriot]

You can't start a steel mill from scratch in months.

Who said we should do that? Try again?

How many tons of steel will we need in that case?

[central_va]

If you have a source, or facts, to back up your numbers, I would be very interested to see them. Please do not link to a commielib site. Thanks in advance.

Do your own research. I stick to my numbers. Hint: If you want stats look at labor costs per unit for something still union made in the USA consisting of rubber, glass and steel.

[DoughtyOne]

Here, hope this helps:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/2911916/posts?page=199#199

[central_va]

Each ship averages 6,000 tons, each tank 60 tons. Say in a real war 1000 ships, 20,000 tanks. You can do math can’t you?

[1rudeboy]

I suppose the follow-up question is, for you and the rest here who believe that closing our market to the outside world is the best option, how much steel will you buy yourself? 48,000lbs. makes a flatbed with no special permits.

[Toddsterpatriot]

Each ship averages 6,000 tons, each tank 60 tons. Say in a real war 1000 ships, 20,000 tanks.

7.2 million tons.

You can do math can’t you?

Better than you, obviously.

[WilliamofCarmichael]

Thanks for your post.

RE: "leading us to . . . the American economy, security, traditional culture, values and its pesky middle class [to be placed] under the tyranny of global communism administered by the WTO, UN, and their affiliates."

The Marxist revolution from the top down. (I think Obama, who has his own agenda, admitted that is his revolution too.)

I believe that the (Clinton) Third Way New Democrats came to realize that only capitalism and free trade can create enough wealth worldwide to "raise all boats"; that is why they advocate such ideas as "rules based free trade" with them setting the rules.

I, a hated "protectionist", do in fact favor free trade -- I do not like attempts to co-opt and use "free trade" by unsavory ideology operating through organizations like you mentioned plus ultra-left government clowns.

The groups you named are all targets plus Davos which -- I believe -- meets once a year to set the agenda for those groups including the U.N. (I think that Clinton has since created his own personal organization to try to compete with Davos. Davos is moving too slow for him.)

Such efforts as the Doha Development Agenda to favor developing nations have emerged inevitably leading to disagreements between the developed and the developing nations; to wit, "developed nations led by the European Union (EU), the United States (USA), and Japan and the major developing countries led and represented mainly by Brazil, China, India, South Korea, and South Africa."

This is way too complicated to be settled here, I see. Personally there's scant chance that I can understand anything close to all the factors.. so IMO:

Stop helping to build the economy and the war-making powers of the Communist Party of Red China..

the bastards have killed an estimated 60 million Chinese citizens and..

Making them millionaires and billionaires ain't working.

[central_va]

The PRC produced 683 Million tons of steel in 2011! It dwarfs the rest of the world combined.

[1rudeboy]

Oh, my. That would be almost 1/20th of our monthly steel production (going from memory, and being very conservative with the figure).

[central_va]

If the ChiComs can translate their steel production into ships and tanks, the will have a 7:1 advantage. Great.

So what if our steel production goes to zero? Could happen in a few generations. This is the end goal of free trade.

[1rudeboy]

Never mind, maybe a month’s worth of production.

[1rudeboy]

Again, a matter of tradeoffs. You want a steel industry 7x larger, and nothing to eat on the shelf at the grocery? (Channeling Hayek, now). Go for it. Think of all those highly-paid steelworkers producing steel that no one will buy, and with nothing to eat.

[Toddsterpatriot]

I suppose we could waste hundreds of billions (trillions?) of dollars by making more steel than we need. Is that what we should do? Can we store a few million tons at your house?

[Toddsterpatriot]

So what if our steel production goes to zero? Could happen in a few generations. This is the end goal of free trade.

That's not my end goal.

[central_va]

Rough numbers, Steel imports 30 MT, steel exports 15 MT, steel production 85 MT. Doing the math domestic demand is 100 MT per year. So 30% of steel supply comes from imports. In a perfect world I would prefer ALL was produced in the USA.

[Toddsterpatriot]

In a perfect world I would prefer ALL was produced in the USA.

That would be great.......

Compared to what?

At what cost?

[central_va]

At what cost?

The domestic makers of steel still have to compete with each other. Whatever the price demand curve spells out, without the "dumping". I am good with that.

[BfloGuy]

For the past 30 years China has averaged 10% growth per year. China's economy is 19 times the size it was 30 years ago.

Yes, and in 2010, it was still a little more than 1/3 that of the U.S. -- with 4 times the population.

The U.S.A has just exploding debt, 16 trillion $ in federal debt, 116 trillion $ in unfunded liabilities, declining cities .

That has absolutely nothing at all to do with trade. It is the result of a half century of liberalism and stupidity [but I repeat myself.] Your statement is a non sequitur and does not bear on this discussion.

History has proved that the U.S. was rising for 200 years with high tariffs and rising for 40 years when a trade embargo was on china.

Your history is wrong. The U.S. certainly did not have high tariffs for 200 years. The founders permitted tariffs [mistakenly in my view] as the federal government's only means of funding so as not to burden the citizens.

That was mistaken thinking, of course, because citizens end up paying the tariffs. Nonetheless, a light across-the-board tariff could have raised revenue without grossly distorting trade. But Alexander Hamilton, our first big-government president, corrupted the tariff system to bestow favors on contributors and cronies.

And that's how tariffs have worked ever since. No tariffs on most items, but high tariffs on goods produced by industries with the most clout or political influence.

The sugar tariff is an excellent example. To protect a couple thousand sugar-producing jobs, we have driven tens of thousands of candy-manufacturing jobs to Mexico where the price of sugar is much, much lower.l

The sugar tariff costs American consumers billions each year and has resulted in the substitution of fructose in products like soda pop resulting in an inferior product.

Then let's talk about the 30% tariff on cheap Chinese tires. That has ended up costing less well-off consumers to fork over even more for inexpensive tires perhaps causing some of them to put off the purchase causing potential safety hazards.

At the same time, not one single American tire manufacturer has decided to enter the low-end market. Even a thirty per cent tariff does not make production profitable here.

Tariffs are a tax on Americans. And, remember, consumers and workers are the same people. What possible good does it do to rob Peter to pay Peter?

Our economic problems are not caused by trade. Trade improves economic situations. Our problems are caused by out-of-control regulation, taxation, inflation, and government over-spending. But you ignore all of those and obsess on trade.

You seem impervious to economic logic, so I don't really expect a specific response.

[BfloGuy]

China rose at our expense. Surely you free traitors can't say that the U.S. economy is better or bigger than China's.

Watch me say it.

The American economy is three times that of China with one quarter the people.

You seem to be able to look up statistics but are not yet able to put them in context.

[BfloGuy]

Surely you free traitors can't say that the U.S. economy is better or bigger than China's

And don't call me a traitor. I refrain from calling you an economic idiot. I expect the same courtesy.

[WilliamofCarmichael]

A modest proposal..

United States Free Enterprise, INC.

INVOICE

Capital, Goods and Services (FDI, Intellectual Property, technology, know how) stolen and extorted by the Peoples Republic of China

TOTAL . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . $2,500,000,000,000.00

Current payments due . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . $1,000,000,000,000.00
Remaining amount due . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . $1,500,000,000,000.00

The U.S. Treasury certificates are your payment receipts. Thank you.

[rurgan]

China is building 1 Chicago a week while the U.S. cities become hellholes and you say the U.S. economy is better . Truly you are insane since you believe an economy with the debt the U.S. is building NOW is the best in the world or better than china.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2j-ypNuNg8Y

That's BS. The definition of economy (GDP) says that 2/3 of U.S. GDP is consumer spending and then most of the rest is government spending . that is your big U.S. economy consumers spending money on foreign made goods . And that is overvalued inflated dollars that many are borrowed and printed out of thin air. The U.S. doesn't produce real wealth which is why the U.S. borrows so much and debt is exploding and living standards and jobs are declining. A real economy is producing wealth and moving 300 million people out of poverty and into the middle class as china has done in the last 20 years. If you look at real production, a real economy as in number of products produced as in consumer electronics, steel( China produces many times the steel the U.S. does then you see it's not even close : china produces much more.

China is building 1 Chicago a week while the U.S. cities become hellholes and you say the U.S. economy is better . Truly you are insane since you believe an economy with the debt the U.S. is building NOW is the best in the world or better than china.

[Sirius Lee]

Binswanger is an idiot.

[rurgan]

China has 10 times more workers in manufacturing than the U.S. has.So china's economy is at least 10 times bigger than that of the U.S. Name what consumer electronics are made in the U.S.A. go ahead name them if the U.S. produces so much.

And the factories are more modern , some factories in china have 200,000 workers. So the workers produce more so it's more than 10

LOL. you have no understanding of how China has undervalued it's currency.

China produces more products than the U.S. does . that is the real economy not what economists say it is ( as in consumer spending in an overvalued currency). The real economy is manufacturing , producing things not consumer spending , government spending as economists define it. It's like saying welfare recipients are the economy . sure they spend so that's an economy? LOL. That's s what we Americans are now welfare recipients. look at the analogy . china gives us discounted goods which we pay for with monopoly money and they get to have the machines ,technology , know how to manufacture. welfare recipients produce nothing and neither do we but we spend so much as if that is production according to stupid economists.

[rurgan]

For the past 30 years China has averaged 10% growth per year. China's economy is 19 times the size it was 30 years ago.

China's economy grew by 19 times in 30 years . You say the U.S. economy is bigger .So by your logic then 30 years ago the U.S. economy was at least 19 times larger than China's ( who has 1 billion people). does that makes sense to any rational being? NO. the fact that china with 1 billion people has grown at 10% per year for the past 30 years proves that it is now by far the biggest economy and will continue this growth into the next few decades . by my estimations China is 10 x the U.S. in real production and in 30 years will be 200 times the U.S. economy

[rurgan]

China knows economics. That’s why china has grown 10% per year for the last 30 years. I say the U.S. should copy what China has done. You say I’m stupid for suggesting that. You can quote some economics text or whatever you are saying but I know what works and what china has been doing for 30 years has worked . the trade agreements the U.S. has done have not helped the U.S. but have helped china.

[WilliamofCarmichael]

China's Cyber Thievery Is National Policy—And Must Be Challenged It is more efficient for the Chinese to steal innovations and intellectual property than to incur the cost and time of creating their own.

"Evidence of China's economically devastating theft of proprietary technologies and other intellectual property from U.S. companies is growing. . . The bottom line is this: China has a massive, inexpensive work force ravenous for economic growth. It is much more efficient for the Chinese to steal innovations and intellectual property—the source code of advanced economies—than to incur the cost and time of creating their own. They turn those stolen ideas directly into production, creating products faster and cheaper than the U.S. and others."

A recent NY Times article said that China recognizes that it does not even have the capability to do its own development and until it does it will continue stealing or doing what ever it takes.

My question is, Opposing that is Protectionism?!

China is a bubble. About to burst. 2020 at the latest. Mao took Nationalist China because of widespread corruption, too much foreign influence, rampant poverty, and general dissatisfaction with the system. (Yes the country suffered from W.W.II -- that is the one key difference from today.)

Right now for the first time there is chaos installing a new Communist government. The Maoists may be forced to act.

The Dengists are totally corrupt, there is too much foreign influence, rampant poverty, and general dissatisfaction with the system.

[Toddsterpatriot]

The definition of economy (GDP) says that 2/3 of U.S. GDP is consumer spending and then most of the rest is government spending .

Wrong, consumption does not mean production.

[Toddsterpatriot]

Whatever the price demand curve spells out, without the "dumping". I am good with that.

The steel consuming American industries appreciate your generosity with their money.

[WilliamofCarmichael]

Here is the aforementioned NY Times article (immediately above in my last post).

What other kind of technology is there in Red China other than stolen? When the Nytimese publish an article agreeing that one of their favorite countries has problems you know it's true!

The Real Problem With China "For the United States, the No. 1 problem with China’s economy is probably intellectual property theft. Technology companies, for example, continue to notice Chinese government agencies downloading software updates for programs they have never bought, at least not legally . . . China’s leaders have reason to be nervous about all the barriers they have built. China’s elite, in government and business, are deeply concerned that their companies remain unable to create truly innovative products."

China calls us a paper tiger. Red China is carbon paper -- and they had to steal the carbon paper!

.. and when Red China kicks U.S. investors out with NOTHING! don't go begging Congress for another TARP, guys!

[Toddsterpatriot]

China has 10 times more workers in manufacturing than the U.S. has.So china's economy is at least 10 times bigger than that of the U.S.

I blame our public schools for your weak grasp of math and economics.

[rurgan]

No I think the real economy is manufacturing. The stupid economists say GDP is consumer spending and government spending (which produces nothing).

This is a quote from a link:
http://minnesota.publicradio.org/display/web/2008/10/29/gdp_numbers_consumer_spending/

“Consumer spending accounts for two-thirds of U.S. economy
by Annie Baxter, Minnesota Public Radio
October 30, 2008”

[Toddsterpatriot]

No I think the real economy is manufacturing.

I think you're wrong

The stupid economists say GDP is consumer spending and government spending

Obviously Gross Domestic Production is not consumer or government spending. That is a stupid definition.

[1rudeboy]

The stupid economists say GDP is consumer spending and government spending . . . .

Ok, so if the public sector should buy nothing, and the private sector should buy nothing (or less, anyway), where do your vaunted manufactured products go?

[rurgan]

This picture is happening all over China:

http://www.dirjournal.com/info/images/shanghai-wfc.jpg

However U.S. cities are decaying hell holes and the U.S. is building only massive debt . So you say the U.S. has a better and bigger economy than China. You must be delusional. You really believe this "greater than China" U.S. economy won't collapse under all this debt including lady obama's 16 trillion federal debt? The U.S, economy is done. china's economy has grown 10% per year for the last 30 years. And you think China doesn't have at least a 10x bigger economy than the U.S. . You have a weak grasp of reality.

[1rudeboy]

If one of my marketing managers ever told me, “I don’t care where the steel goes, as long as it is produced,” I’d have had him escorted from the building.

[Toddsterpatriot]

Inefficient government directed infrastructure? We've got plenty of that here too.

So you say the U.S. has a better and bigger economy than China.

Everyone who can add says the U.S. has a bigger economy than China.

You really believe this "greater than China" U.S. economy won't collapse under all this debt including lady obama's 16 trillion federal debt?

Our "bigger than China" economy is not helped by wasteful Obama spending.

china's economy has grown 10% per year for the last 30 years.

Yes, if you believe the economic numbers released by local and regional governments in China, they've had very good growth. If you don't think they have their own real estate and banking bubble, you haven't been paying attention.

And you think China doesn't have at least a 10x bigger economy than the U.S. . You have a weak grasp of reality.

It's like I knew you were out there when I came up with my tagline.

[1rudeboy]

You really believe this "greater than China" U.S. economy won't collapse under all this debt including lady obama's 16 trillion federal debt? The U.S, economy is done.

Apart from the fact that the above statement has nothing to do with trade, you are correct.

[rurgan]

For the past 30 years China has averaged 10% growth per year. That’s 19 times the size in 30 years.

China has a billion people

You say the U.S. economy is 3x that of china

So you are saying that the U.S. had 19 x 3 = 57 times the size of China’s 30 years ago.

So you are saying 30 year ago the U.S had an economy 57 times the size of a country that has a billion people. That’s totally ridiculous. China has a much larger economy than the U.S.

[Toddsterpatriot]

I know what you mean, but it's probably difficult to measure production until you sell it.

So if consumers and government bought nothing, your steel production wouldn't count until it's exported. In which case it adds to GDP.

[rurgan]

Here’s some math for you since you say I’m so dumb at math.For the past 30 years China has averaged 10% growth per year. That’s 19 times the size in 30 years for you in rio linda..

China has a billion people

You say the U.S. economy is 3x that of china

So you are saying that the U.S. had 19 x 3 = 57 times the size of China’s 30 years ago.

So you are saying 30 year ago the U.S had an economy 57 times the size of a country that has a billion people. That’s totally ridiculous. China has a much larger economy than the U.S.

[Toddsterpatriot]

So you are saying that the U.S. had 19 x 3 = 57 times the size of China’s 30 years ago.

That only works if the US had the same sized economy 30 years ago as we do now. Another math fail on your part.

That’s totally ridiculous. China has a much larger economy than the U.S.

Your claim is totally ridiculous.

[rurgan]

The U.S economy hasn’t grown that much in 30 years at least living standards haven’t . all you have is insults. Even so by using the stats you dumbly believe that means that the U.S. is supposed to have an economy now 57 times bigger than china’s 30 years ago . The U.S. has an economy 57 times that of a country of a billion people :that is ridiculous and so is your reasoning.

[1rudeboy]

The U.S economy hasn’t grown that much in 30 years at least living standards haven’t.

Typed on a computer that didn't exist, transmitted through a network that didn't exist, and posted on a forum that didn't exist, on an internet that barely existed 30 years ago.

[Toddsterpatriot]

The U.S economy hasn’t grown that much in 30 years

It's like you're not even trying.

Even so by using the stats you dumbly believe that means that the U.S. is supposed to have an economy now 57 times bigger than china’s 30 years ago .

I don't know about you but I'm 57 times more productive than a Chinese farmer using a stick to plant rice.

The U.S. has an economy 57 times that of a country of a billion people :that is ridiculous and so is your reasoning.

With your weak math and poor reasoning skills, it's no wonder a Commie dump like China is able to compete with us.

[maxwellsmart_agent]

For those concerned about outsourcing, what kind of car do you drive? I drive a Ford.