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Women Don't Belong in Ranger School
Wall Street Journal ^ | 6-12-12 | Stephen Kilcullen

Posted on 06/13/2012 3:41:24 PM PDT by kingattax

The United States Army is debating whether to admit women to Ranger School, its elite training program for young combat leaders.

Proponents argue this is to remove a final impediment to the careers of Army women. But the move would erode the unique Ranger ethos and culture—not to mention the program's rigorous physical requirements—harming its core mission of cultivating leaders willing to sacrifice everything for our nation.

The Army's 75th Ranger Regiment traces its roots back to World War II, when it won acclaim for penetrating deep behind Japanese lines. Founded in 1950, Ranger School teaches combat soldiers small-unit tactics and leadership under extreme duress. It pushes men harder than any other program in the Army's curriculum.

Competition to attend the course is fierce, with about 4,000 men eligible to attend each year. Only about half graduate. Of those, only 20% make it through without having to retake various phases.

For decades, completion of Ranger School has been the best indicator for determining which young men can handle the enormous responsibility of combat leadership

(Excerpt) Read more at online.wsj.com ...


TOPICS: News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: liberalagenda; rangerschool
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To: SkyDancer
One of the things I used to do was to sneak up on the guys barracks, take pictures and get back without being seen. And yes, I’m the FreePer known as Skydancer and I’ve been here since 2005. I think there’s a bit of jealousy on your part that I should have learned the guy stuff and are upset that I can outclass you in various areas.

I think you aren't playing with a full deck, and I don't think you made it through your full term of service.

201 posted on 06/13/2012 8:14:37 PM PDT by ansel12 (Massachusetts Governors, where the GOP now goes for it's Presidential candidates.)
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To: Trailerpark Badass
Well just heck and gosh and darn. Sorry for my attitude. I'm not here to impress guys. I'm here to defend what I believe in. Sorry too that I've hurt your feelings. I didn't know that my mouth was so bad that I have to look forward to having my ass beat. It's been tried. It seems when a woman has an attitude it requires an ass beating from some guy who is upset they're upset. I went back through my posts to see what sort of mouth I had and for the life of me I didn't see anything a moderator would have to call me out on. I guess it's just the juvenile attitude people like you take when they get their butts handed to them by a woman.

I shall now leave you to your buddies to wax eloquent back and forth on how you really handed to some uppity woman who basically kicked your verbal ass.

202 posted on 06/13/2012 8:17:30 PM PDT by SkyDancer
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To: SkyDancer
I get it from them. Perhaps they should educate you.

I submit that they would agree with me. Shouldn't you at least have the (figurative) balls to ask. You have inherited or share their confidence, but not their skills. Of course, you did say firefights would scare the crap out of you, perhaps you are afraid of their judgement as well. A man would do it, this is an area a woman can compete equally, show them and ask.

203 posted on 06/13/2012 8:17:55 PM PDT by xone
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To: pajama pundit

I think one of them landed sideways on the deck in a ‘14 and is now with the fish. I think she was pushed into it beyond her capabilities.


204 posted on 06/13/2012 8:21:14 PM PDT by SkyDancer
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To: SkyDancer
My dream fantasy has always been to try out for the English SAS

Bravo Two Zero were SAS doing some of that "sneaky" stuff you like to tell us that you are so great at, the problem is that their packs weighed 209 pounds at the start of the mission and I can guarantee you that they left things behind that they dearly would have loved to take with them on the mission, like more ammo.

At 110 pounds, I doubt that you could have handled your 209 pound share of the gear.

205 posted on 06/13/2012 8:23:20 PM PDT by ansel12 (Massachusetts Governors, where the GOP now goes for it's Presidential candidates.)
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To: SkyDancer
I didn't even read your post, because something every guy learns, either directly or by observation, is when to shut the hell up. And strangely, learning that is an essential step to manhood.

Good luck on your journey.

206 posted on 06/13/2012 8:26:14 PM PDT by Trailerpark Badass
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To: xone
We have. My uncle trained me very well on how to take care of myself both physically and intellectually. All I grew up with were men. I have their mentality so to speak. I'm a tomboy's tomboy. I don't intentionally try to make people angry with what I say or do. It just happens. I've been here at Free Republic since 2005 and learned real quick how to be thick skinned. I've taken as much as I've given. I consider people here as friends and I enjoy a good give and take. I don't intend to be mean or argumentative. People read things differently than how I write them. If they've been having a rough day they'll read what I write one way that sounds pissy to them. Other times they'll laugh it off. I like being here because I consider this place my home away from home. I'm on a lot of threads here especially Kathy From Alaska and her military thread. Anyway, the way I see it, today, no harm done, well for me at least. Hope all is well with you and that at least we're FReeper friends.

Regards, Janey

207 posted on 06/13/2012 8:31:07 PM PDT by SkyDancer
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To: Trailerpark Badass

My uncle trained me very well on how to take care of myself both physically and intellectually. All I grew up with were men. I have their mentality so to speak. I’m a tomboy’s tomboy. I don’t intentionally try to make people angry with what I say or do. It just happens. I’ve been here at Free Republic since 2005 and learned real quick how to be thick skinned. I’ve taken as much as I’ve given. I consider people here as friends and I enjoy a good give and take. I don’t intend to be mean or argumentative. People read things differently than how I write them. If they’ve been having a rough day they’ll read what I write one way that sounds pissy to them. Other times they’ll laugh it off. I like being here because I consider this place my home away from home. I’m on a lot of threads here especially Kathy From Alaska and her military thread. Anyway, the way I see it, today, no harm done, well for me at least. Hope all is well with you and that at least we’re FReeper friends.

Regards, Janey


208 posted on 06/13/2012 8:32:27 PM PDT by SkyDancer
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To: ansel12

Too true. One of my favorite authors on the SAS is Andy McNab. I’ve read four of his books. He told how it was going through SAS training. I’ve tried some of it up in our woods like map reading and finding my way, camping out overnight and stuff. Heck with that hand to hand.


209 posted on 06/13/2012 8:35:46 PM PDT by SkyDancer
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To: rlmorel

Great reply.


210 posted on 06/13/2012 8:37:47 PM PDT by Last Dakotan
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To: SkyDancer
Anyway, the way I see it, today, no harm done, well for me at least. Hope all is well with you and that at least we're FReeper friends.

I agree with the sentiment.

My only reason for recommending the thread to your relatives is so you get feedback from someone you can trust. It isn't anti-female dreams from my prospective but a look at some of your comments from a reality basis from men you know you can trust who have no axe to grind and appreciate your dreams. It will make you an even better person. "A man's got to know his limitations" same with women.

211 posted on 06/13/2012 8:42:28 PM PDT by xone
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To: FreedomPoster
"...Not sure about what happens with a Romney Administration..."

If it comes to that, it is hard to predict. And I say this as someone who lived under Romney administrations.

212 posted on 06/13/2012 8:44:19 PM PDT by rlmorel ("The safest road to Hell is the gradual one." Screwtape (C.S. Lewis))
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To: SkyDancer
I went through reserve Marine basic. Same thing guys did. I passed. No special privileges. I got yelled at just the same, ate the same mud, repelled off cliffs like them, the whole scene.

There is only Marine basic training, the Reserves do not have separate basic training schools.

Basic is 12 weeks long, after taking the man's basic training and naturally passing with flying colors, did you finish your full six years in the Marine Corp Reserves?

213 posted on 06/13/2012 8:44:39 PM PDT by ansel12 (Massachusetts Governors, where the GOP now goes for it's Presidential candidates.)
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To: SkyDancer

I am not belittling you, but I do NOT want you to get that chance and I will tell you why. Once they start letting women try out and all of them fail, then pressure will mount to lower standards to get some to pass.

Look at our present course to see that it is inevitable that “getting a woman to pass” will be pushed anyway possible to get it through. And the only way to ensure that happens is “to lower the standards”.

Now do you REALLY want to be responsible for this action? Are you that selfish? Because it will most likely get many people killed in the future.


214 posted on 06/13/2012 8:47:39 PM PDT by packrat35 (Admit it! We are almost ready to be called a police state!)
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To: packrat35

I just want the opportunity to at least try it. If I fail I fail. But to be denied the opportunity is what is aggravating just because I’m female. There’s lots of other org’s like the forest service that has some kinds of physical standards but it’s nothing like the military. Just saying.


215 posted on 06/13/2012 8:50:18 PM PDT by SkyDancer
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To: SkyDancer

Again read what I wrote, your attempt will cause a snowball roll to lower standards and get good people killed. The powers that be will not sit by and watch all women fail and then not do something to “FIX” it.

You say you have brothers in the military. This effort could get them killed by having to rely on “less than Qualified” people working with them.

Seriously, look at the politics of it. Once they let them in, then some MUST PASS! And they will make it happen with lower standards. This isn’t idle speculation. It is the same way they did it with naval fliers and every other branch of the service.


216 posted on 06/13/2012 8:56:04 PM PDT by packrat35 (Admit it! We are almost ready to be called a police state!)
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To: SkyDancer

Again read what I wrote, your attempt will cause a snowball roll to lower standards and get good people killed. The powers that be will not sit by and watch all women fail and then not do something to “FIX” it.

You say you have brothers in the military. This effort could get them killed by having to rely on “less than Qualified” people working with them.

Seriously, look at the politics of it. Once they let them in, then some MUST PASS! And they will make it happen with lower standards. This isn’t idle speculation. It is the same way they did it with naval fliers and every other branch of the service.


217 posted on 06/13/2012 8:56:21 PM PDT by packrat35 (Admit it! We are almost ready to be called a police state!)
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To: ansel12
Nope, not yet. I've two more years to go. My dad wanted me to go to Annapolis since he was a Marine pilot in Vietnam and got a senator to nominate me but that's not what I wanted to do. I'm here in Australia. I have a deferment of sorts but I do go for training when I come home on vacation. Just to let you know female Marines have to perform all of the same physical requirements as their male counterparts.

Many people believe that the Marine Corps is easier on women than it is on men. This is, in fact, a misconception. It is evident with a look around Parris Island that women in Marine recruit training have to train hard. Women and men are housed separately and train separately

It's not an easier ride for us.

218 posted on 06/13/2012 8:58:54 PM PDT by SkyDancer
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To: SkyDancer

A task such as carrying a MG twenty miles may not be part of the current curriculum when we have control of the sky and V-22’s to fly grunts and humvees to transport them from point A to point B.

But there may come a time when an enemy has wrested control of the sky from us and rendered our transportation by air or ground unsafe or non-existent, and carrying in your arms an MG of any make or model twenty miles may be the only way to either accomplish the mission or live to fight another day.

We won’t be fighting against entities with no air power, satellites, drones, smart weapons or offensive capabilities forever.

Regardless of how many technical goodies we have, direct combat still boils down to the most exhaustive physical activity anyone is likely to encounter in their lives. Even today.


219 posted on 06/13/2012 9:00:51 PM PDT by rlmorel ("The safest road to Hell is the gradual one." Screwtape (C.S. Lewis))
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To: packrat35

I’m just saying I’d like to try it. I agree that women in hard bullet flying combat just isn’t it. It’s the physical standards I’d like to try for. There are non-military camps for guys to play soldier, none for women. I’d just like to see if I could hack it is all. But then, what’d happen if the US is invaded and they need all the people they can get. Would then tell us we couldn’t fight for our country? It’s just an idea.


220 posted on 06/13/2012 9:03:17 PM PDT by SkyDancer
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To: rlmorel

Yep, I agree.


221 posted on 06/13/2012 9:04:43 PM PDT by SkyDancer
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To: SkyDancer

You could always try out for American Ninja Warrior competition. They have it every year. Its on the G$ network. Takes some pretty intense stuff to get through the course and no women have made it through that I know of.

http://www.g4tv.com/anw/home/


222 posted on 06/13/2012 9:16:46 PM PDT by packrat35 (Admit it! We are almost ready to be called a police state!)
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To: packrat35

Well I’m in Australia right now so .... but will check it out. Don’t know if I’m that tough.


223 posted on 06/13/2012 9:28:03 PM PDT by SkyDancer
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To: SkyDancer
Photobucket
224 posted on 06/13/2012 9:32:22 PM PDT by Dick Vomer (democrats are like flies, whatever they don't eat they sh#t on.)
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To: Dick Vomer
Photobucket
225 posted on 06/13/2012 9:40:53 PM PDT by SkyDancer
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To: ansel12
I'm not going to argue with you about the mental stress Special Forces face. But it is not wise to say no to talent and will for those who are willing. That is not to say I am demanding that women should be in combat roles or should be welcomed in Special Forces. All I am saying is that it is not wise to say no to those who measure up physically, mentally and emotionally. That means they have to measure up NOT DOWN. I despise the dumbing down of society. If you can't cut it then you can't go. Period.
226 posted on 06/13/2012 9:55:32 PM PDT by Chgogal (WSJ, Coulter, Kristol, Krauthammer, Rove et al., STFU. Thank you.)
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To: Chgogal

I didn’t address the mental part, I was still on the physical part, you sound like a very fit athletic woman, but you still don’t sound capable of Special Operations physicality.

Women are a hindrance in the military, not an asset.


227 posted on 06/13/2012 10:03:47 PM PDT by ansel12 (Massachusetts Governors, where the GOP now goes for it's Presidential candidates.)
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To: SkyDancer

In combat is is considered a failure if you let something be passed through your body, even something so small as a 9mm.


228 posted on 06/13/2012 10:05:59 PM PDT by donmeaker (Blunderbuss: A short weapon, ... now superceded in civilized countries by more advanced weaponry.)
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To: rlmorel
Yup, it is very difficult to discuss. I think if women were able go apply for Special Forces, only avery few would be able to handle it for many reasons. Women are not mentally or emotionally conditioned to physically confront the “enemy”. We are conditioned to be pretty, be pleasant, smile a lot, be kind and nurturing from babyhood on. Just look at the baby clothes for girls vs. boys. Boys get the short end while girls, well they're girlie and we all spend small fortunes on our little princesses. Nothing wrong with that. It's just tougher to find a girl who would have no problem slicing the intestines out of a guy just inches away, or breaking the neck of said guy and not freak out at the sound of the snapping neck bones.

My father wanted me to join the Military. I told him I'd join when they put silencers on tanks. I mean for real. Who could put up with all that noise in the middle of the night? ; )

229 posted on 06/13/2012 10:14:57 PM PDT by Chgogal (WSJ, Coulter, Kristol, Krauthammer, Rove et al., STFU. Thank you.)
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To: ansel12
Sir, I am not applying for Ranger School.

All I am saying that it is wise to keep your options open.

Since you cannot observe me in the field you have no idea what I am or am not capable of.

Just wondering if you have problems with women brain surgeons? That is a pretty stressful job.

230 posted on 06/13/2012 10:22:35 PM PDT by Chgogal (WSJ, Coulter, Kristol, Krauthammer, Rove et al., STFU. Thank you.)
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To: ansel12
Also, what is very important. Whatever the qualifications, they must be met. Period.

Absolutely NO dumbing down.

231 posted on 06/13/2012 10:25:29 PM PDT by Chgogal (WSJ, Coulter, Kristol, Krauthammer, Rove et al., STFU. Thank you.)
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To: SCalGal
Ranger School, yup, I believe we are talking about war.

Pretty sure when attacked all hands are on deck and you are fighting for life of limb for the Trooper next to you and you will do what is expected of you and you will do as you were trained to do.

232 posted on 06/13/2012 10:30:29 PM PDT by Chgogal (WSJ, Coulter, Kristol, Krauthammer, Rove et al., STFU. Thank you.)
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To: ansel12
“Even in support, like the mess haul and truck driving, women fail, figure a liquid at roughly 8 lb.s per gallon, then look at mess hall pots, or a giant slab of beef, or a truck driver that can't lift the tire to replace it.”

I totally agree with you. Women should only be accepted if they can hack it. If they cannot qualify they should be deemed unacceptable. Quotas are the worst. If only one woman qualifies so be it. If none qualify, so be it. Like I said not many women would qualify for what you are describing. The standards should not be lowered. Period.

Hey, short rations for six weeks....sounds like a great diet. Where do I sign-up?

Relax, I am joking. ; )

233 posted on 06/13/2012 10:43:40 PM PDT by Chgogal (WSJ, Coulter, Kristol, Krauthammer, Rove et al., STFU. Thank you.)
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To: SkyDancer
We shouldn’t be discounted because of our sex.

If you read the posts in this thread, you will see that you are not accurate with this statement. The objections are because it is expected that the standards will be lowered when women are allowed to join.

234 posted on 06/13/2012 10:45:12 PM PDT by JimWayne
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To: Chgogal

Yes I do know, I know that just having to live with a 170 pound pack would be the end of you.

There is no advantage to the Army to replace men with females, zero, there are ONLY negatives.

I don’t know who you keep confusing me with, I haven’t mentioned stress, or mental aspects, yet.


235 posted on 06/13/2012 10:45:48 PM PDT by ansel12 (Massachusetts Governors, where the GOP now goes for it's Presidential candidates.)
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To: Travis McGee

and passed frog school when I was 22.

______________________

if I kiss you will you turn into my prince?


236 posted on 06/13/2012 10:53:58 PM PDT by Chickensoup (STOP The Great O-ppression)
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To: Chgogal

If they could hack it? Do you think like liberals that humans don’t know anything, that the Army doesn’t know this stuff already?

If s single one makes it? You are going to change everything for her? Have specialized gear and supplies and accommodations and medical personnel just for her? For what, to get the equivalent of a mediocre man?

Removing men soldiers from the military to replace them with females does not HELP the military, it only HURTS it.


237 posted on 06/13/2012 10:54:47 PM PDT by ansel12 (Massachusetts Governors, where the GOP now goes for it's Presidential candidates.)
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To: ansel12
“I don’t know who you keep confusing me with, I haven’t mentioned stress, or mental aspects, yet.”

You haven't mentioned mental stress but I have. ; )

Gots to go. Driving my nephew to the airport in two hours. Yeah, they let us women folk drive real cars in Chicago. (I just had to mouth off. Don't take my smartypants typing too seriously.)

238 posted on 06/13/2012 10:54:53 PM PDT by Chgogal (WSJ, Coulter, Kristol, Krauthammer, Rove et al., STFU. Thank you.)
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To: xone

Done these things aboard a ship where there is insufficient water to clean your watermelon handler properly for weeks?

_____________________________________________

I am still choking...POST OF THE DAY POST OF THE DAY


239 posted on 06/13/2012 10:58:08 PM PDT by Chickensoup (STOP The Great O-ppression)
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To: ansel12
“If s single one makes it? You are going to change everything for her? Have specialized gear and supplies and accommodations and medical personnel just for her? For what, to get the equivalent of a mediocre man?”

Oh shit, now you did. FYI, I was one of the first 13 year old girls who made it into one of the best all male technical schools. Now, lets part friendly adversaries and call it a day.

Just in case I am being too subtle stop where you are in your tracks. BTW, I could handle all the crap that was shoveled at me with good humor and I beat the pants off ALL mediocre boys but NOT the Special Forces boys. Get it? You have now tread on very thin ice. WARNING! WARNING!

240 posted on 06/13/2012 11:04:26 PM PDT by Chgogal (WSJ, Coulter, Kristol, Krauthammer, Rove et al., STFU. Thank you.)
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To: Chgogal; dmz; Travis McGee
Hey, short rations for six weeks....sounds like a great diet. Where do I sign-up?

When I lived in Minneapolis, the St. Paul Fire Dept, was trying to get it's first female, which shocked me because I thought all of that had been long accomplished, but St. Paul had never changed their standards, hence, no females.

They had a super star this time, a true athlete and super woman, she had trainers, was on a special diet and workouts, the Fire Dept was doing everything to get this Great White Hope across the finish line, she was at her peak, at her best age, everything maximized just for her, if they could capture lightning in a bottle at just the right moment, they would get a fire woman who on her best day barely squeaked by the minimum, in other words, all this was to gain probably the naturally weakest fireman in the cities history.

I thought of our men in Vietnam living on cigarettes and canned peaches, clothes rotting off, 30 pounds lighter since basic, all the things that weaken and drain a young athletic man during sustained living in the jungle in combat, yet they could still do it all, including hauling their wounded.

I couldn't help but think of that female applicant, not sure that she could pass the test at her peak, which already defined her as one of the most inadequate of firemen if hired, but what would that woman be after 10 years of beer and chili dogs, a couple of kids, middle aged spread, being more prone to injuries. She had no reserves of natural man strength, the absolute most we could expect from her would be that 10 years later, she would still be barely adequate.

241 posted on 06/13/2012 11:24:57 PM PDT by ansel12 (Massachusetts Governors, where the GOP now goes for it's Presidential candidates.)
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To: Chgogal
I was one of the first 13 year old girls who made it into one of the best all male technical schools. Now, lets part friendly adversaries and call it a day.

What does going to classes in school have to do with trying to supply special gear, supplies, materials, accommodations, medical personnel and security for a single female in a nasty, brutal, isolated combat post where you can't even get enough food water and ammo to them as it is?

242 posted on 06/13/2012 11:30:30 PM PDT by ansel12 (Massachusetts Governors, where the GOP now goes for it's Presidential candidates.)
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To: SkyDancer
I'll go up against any Marine Recon anytime anywhere anyplace. And I'm only 5'6 and weigh in at 110lbs.

Regardless of the outcome of such match, I admire your attitude. No one likes a defeatist.

I personally think the probability of women qualifying for the Rangers is so low as to not warrant consideration. However, I would not want to preclude women soldiers from trying any more than I would want to prevent girls from trying out for their high school football team. I suspect the percentages will be similar.

In order to not burden the Rangers or Spec Op's, I would require that in order to show up as a Ranger/Spec Op candidate, a certificate of minimum qualifications must accompany each candidate. If a woman soldier can meet the minimum requirements, she deserves a fair chance.

243 posted on 06/14/2012 12:23:46 AM PDT by fso301
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To: RinaseaofDs

Wow, how big of you to group women in with transgenders, gays and lesbians. What a prig you are!


244 posted on 06/14/2012 12:39:49 AM PDT by antceecee (Bless us Father.. have mercy on us and protect us from evil.)
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To: Chode
Then again the same exists in the now forgone "don't ask don't tell" and what's to say it did not exist for platonic friendships in any case? Israel has had women in their fighting forces since I can remember back in 1970's... worked with a woman - Israeli, architect who had served her country in the armed forces.

Sorry, I don't agree with mandatory deployment of women in combat and especially with women serving in subs and other close situations, but find the comments on this thread regarding the "abilities and capabilities" of women insulting to all women. The most vitriolic posters are in high probability NOT combat material or borderline successful in their own military career. Those I have personally known in my life who have served, including WWII, Korea and Vietnam, would never post such crap.

245 posted on 06/14/2012 12:50:05 AM PDT by antceecee (Bless us Father.. have mercy on us and protect us from evil.)
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To: SkyDancer

; )


246 posted on 06/14/2012 12:52:29 AM PDT by antceecee (Bless us Father.. have mercy on us and protect us from evil.)
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To: SkyDancer

If the SHTF... and able men are not in abundance to defend the homeland, they would all thank their lucky stars that we have brave, able and trained young women to step up and take to the fight.


247 posted on 06/14/2012 12:58:15 AM PDT by antceecee (Bless us Father.. have mercy on us and protect us from evil.)
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To: kingattax

The “dumbing down” of training standards, and a weakening of the Ranger ethos, coupled with stripping the branch of the service of all physical standards and, in consequence, effectiveness, would follow as night follows day, and yet another priceless institution would fall to the PC demons.

This is, quite plainly and simply, madness.

Whatever chair polishing Pentagon general came up with this idea should be broken in rank and sent to shovel sh*t in Nome, Alaska.

Alas, things being what they are, he’ll probaly get a promotion.


248 posted on 06/14/2012 1:13:52 AM PDT by Jack Hammer
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To: antceecee
If the SHTF... and able men are not in abundance to defend the homeland, they would all thank their lucky stars that we have brave, able and trained young women to step up and take to the fight.

LOL, is that girl logic? 313 million Americans and heading for a Billion, and suddenly America has to worry about running out of men?

In WWII our population was 132 million.

In the bloodiest war that the United States has ever fought, the Civil War, we had a population of 31 million.

249 posted on 06/14/2012 1:20:11 AM PDT by ansel12 (Massachusetts Governors, where the GOP now goes for it's Presidential candidates.)
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To: kingattax
For decades, completion of Ranger School has been the best indicator for determining which young men can handle the enormous responsibility of combat leadership

I did have to chuckle at this one. We had two Platoon Leaders, both tabbed, get fired during my combat tour in Iraq--one of them was for cowardice.

250 posted on 06/14/2012 2:35:40 AM PDT by Future Snake Eater (CrossFit.com)
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