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Experts say rigorous training needed to prepare gun owners (mild barf alert)
Milwaukee J-S ^ | 15 apr 2012

Posted on 04/15/2012 5:10:28 AM PDT by rellimpank

Make no mistake - Dodge County Sheriff Todd Nehls is an advocate of concealed carry.

But Nehls wants people seeking permits to take the most rigorous training available, not just what gets a permit. He encourages firearm owners to shoot at a range during the day and at night, and in a variety of weather conditions.

"Strapping on a weapon puts you in a position to make a decision in a split second," Nehls says. "When you pull that handgun in a store to defend yourself or someone else, you don't see a paper target, you see a live human being. You begin to sweat, you begin to shake. You are deciding to intentionally kill another human."

Nehls would like to ask each permit holder: "Are you ready?"

That question is at the heart of the current cultural debate about the use of guns in the name of self-defense, fueled by the controversial shooting deaths of Trayvon Martin in Florida and Bo Morrison in Wisconsin and by laws like the "castle doctrine" in Wisconsin and others labeled "stand yo

(Excerpt) Read more at jsonline.com ...


TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Culture/Society; News/Current Events; US: Wisconsin
KEYWORDS: banglist; rkba
--the latest media pitch in cheesehead land--
1 posted on 04/15/2012 5:10:30 AM PDT by rellimpank
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To: rellimpank
just he presence of personal firearm protection is usually sufficient to pacify those who are threatening.
2 posted on 04/15/2012 5:18:59 AM PDT by elpadre (AfganistaMr Obama said the goal was to "disrupt, dismantle and defeat al-hereQaeda" and its allies.)
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To: elpadre

They want to train our consciousness. These guys realize all too well our properties which could be theirs might slip away. We can organize our own training or responsabilities, thank you. If we can hire a Sheriff and are trained at controling it, then we do not need his advice. Unless he is telling us about something on himself we do not know but should know?


3 posted on 04/15/2012 5:26:15 AM PDT by JudgemAll (Democrats Fed. job-security Whorocracy & hate:hypocrites must be gay like us or be tested/crucified)
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To: rellimpank

“you don’t see a paper target, you see a live human being”

Yes, you could ask the perp who is a direct threat to your life and possibly others, in that split second you have to decide, how his family is..maybe you could look through each others family photo albums?
I mean before you put a bullet in his non-paper head.


4 posted on 04/15/2012 5:27:11 AM PDT by Leep (Enemy of the Statist)
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To: rellimpank

To get a permit to carry a weapon - no. To be ready to use that weapon - yes!

There are three things a person should do. Shooting under all weather conditions. Shooting and reloading under pressure (time constraints are good). Drawing from a usual carry position and accurately firing under pressure.

Practice, practice, and finally, practice!


5 posted on 04/15/2012 5:33:17 AM PDT by TexasRedeye
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To: rellimpank
Nehls would like to ask each permit holder: “Are you ready?”

That is what my instructor said to us and explained it is not like shooting at a target...

As for myself I was raised around guns and taught to shoot at a very early age..I do recommend that anyone get familiar with their gun..learn to clean and above all learn to shoot..

If it came down to the person in front of me and my family I will always choose my family..So yes I could shoot if I felt threatened..

6 posted on 04/15/2012 5:44:58 AM PDT by PLD (what is the difference between the Black Panthers and the KKK..Nothing I can see..)
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To: rellimpank

A quick-draw McGraw is all we need.


7 posted on 04/15/2012 5:46:08 AM PDT by bunkerhill7 (hip-aimed accuracy no problem. Who knew?)
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To: bunkerhill7

Use some common sense people. The better and more familiar one is with a gun, the better he/she can use it/shoot it, etc. I agree with the good sheriff that the more practice you have, the SAFER you will be when that moment of truth pops up. It’s called “practice”.


8 posted on 04/15/2012 5:50:08 AM PDT by Progov
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To: TexasRedeye

The problem is many, many people with carry permits never practice. I was in a required class for a permit in Nevada and there was an older lady with a S&W .38 special revolver that she said she owned for 30-years and had never fired it once...in fact, she didn’t even know that is was a revolver.

I attended a one-day combat handguns course at an academy and it was a fantastic cours. 400-rounds in about 5-hours with many under-loaded magazine reload drills and shoot-no shoot course with walls and doors and life-sized human photo-targets.

I try to shoot at least once a month.

Cheers and keep your finger off the trigger.


9 posted on 04/15/2012 5:56:39 AM PDT by Cuttnhorse
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To: rellimpank

Do war veterans get a pass? (rhetorical).


10 posted on 04/15/2012 5:59:52 AM PDT by Graybeard58 (Haggai 1, V6.. and he that earneth wages earneth wages to put it into a bag with holes. (My plight))
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To: rellimpank

We should also have extensive training on getting beaten, robbed, and raped. Then you can be educated about which you like better - carrying a firearm, or being a victim.

Because - let’s face facts - being a victim can take a huge mental toll if you are not emotionally prepared for it.


11 posted on 04/15/2012 6:04:52 AM PDT by bolobaby
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To: rellimpank

Back in the day when the NYPD used revolvers—they analyzed all their gunfights.
2.7 rounds fired on average for each fight.
MOST shots ranged THREE FEET OR LESS, none more than 21 feet.
Accuracy is really not much of a factor—training either.
BTW—they’re called ‘belly guns’ ‘cause they are pressed against the enemy’s BELLY.


12 posted on 04/15/2012 6:08:36 AM PDT by Flintlock (Picture ID for ALL voting. Let our dead rest in peace.)
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To: FRiends
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13 posted on 04/15/2012 6:23:12 AM PDT by deoetdoctrinae (Gun-free zones are playgrounds for felons)
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To: elpadre

I would like to see more proficiency required to get a CCL in FL. Florida requires a minimal demonstration of competency with your firearm. I put 4 shots almost touching each other in a silhouette at about 12 feet and the instructor stopped me and said that’s good enough. A driver’s licence is tougher to get.


14 posted on 04/15/2012 6:40:17 AM PDT by MtBaldy (If Obama is the answer, it must have been a really stupid question)
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To: rellimpank

“Experts say rigorous training needed to prepare gun owners”
Public schools provide our children with free driver’s training and sex education. I think it’s time to teach every child how to safely use a firearm. It’s a safety and health issue.


15 posted on 04/15/2012 6:53:07 AM PDT by running_dog_lackey
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To: rellimpank

Start teaching marksmanship, safe handling, and ethics of self defense...

In grade school.

It’d obviate the need for silliness like this.


16 posted on 04/15/2012 7:14:14 AM PDT by Dead Corpse (Steampunk- Yesterday's Tomorrow, Today)
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To: running_dog_lackey

Interesting, in the 60’s we had both gun safety and boating safety courses in school. In fact a minor could not get a hunting license without attendence. It was free, after school, taught by capable people.

Now as my career winds down, and I have more free time I try and shoot once a week. I wish there were programs available. But with the DAMMED Federal Government, and gun free zones, you would have to find another venue to teach. Thats ok, I don’t usually hang around with liberals.


17 posted on 04/15/2012 7:18:43 AM PDT by JohnD9207 (Santorum...the only Conservative in the race.)
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To: TexasRedeye
Practice, practice, and finally, practice!

Exactly. It actually takes very little time to go over the three things you need to know: basic firearms safety; how to operate your firearm (including cleaning!); and when to draw, when to fire.

What takes time and practice (repetition) is making this second nature. Carry around the house, draw on the cat when he/she is chasing the catnip ball. (there's a moving target for you, and the dog is saying please oh please let it be loaded this time... :-) Or draw on the TV, follow a character... (just don't pull and Elvis)

18 posted on 04/15/2012 7:31:36 AM PDT by ThunderSleeps (Stop obama now! Stop the hussein - insane agenda!)
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To: MtBaldy
I would like to see more proficiency required to get a CCL in FL. Florida requires a minimal demonstration of competency with your firearm. I put 4 shots almost touching each other in a silhouette at about 12 feet and the instructor stopped me and said that’s good enough. A driver’s licence is tougher to get.

In PA, getting a license is purely administrative. No written exam, no shooting demo. We haven't had any news stories about CCW holders shooting innocent bystanders left and right (and given the Philadelphia Inquirer, if there HAD been any significant number, we WOULD have heard about it. Every week as a permanent "rogues gallery").

This does not mean that I haven't gotten training and practice. In fact, I got more training the first year than the average police academy graduate gets.

19 posted on 04/15/2012 7:33:38 AM PDT by PapaBear3625 (In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act. - George Orwell)
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To: Cuttnhorse

For practice, knowledge, proficiency and fun, join in IPSC shoots. Widely varied scenarios, lots of shooting at varied targets, movement, anticipation, practicing application of skills, pressure in the form of competition and speed and just the camaraderie make it a great day. You don’t need to be good as all skill levels participate - but you will get much better with the practice. Go simply watch and you will be hooked.


20 posted on 04/15/2012 7:34:13 AM PDT by TexasRedeye
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To: Progov

“Use some common sense people. The better and more familiar one is with a gun, the better he/she can use it/shoot it, etc. I agree with the good sheriff that the more practice you have, the SAFER you will be when that moment of truth pops up. It’s called “practice”.”

I don’t know what folks problem is with the article. If you train, you are more likely to survive an armed encounter and you are less likely to shoot an innocent man or woman. I know a lot of people who carry. And not many who can engage with their firearm within 2 seconds. In an emergency, they are as likely to shoot themselves getting it out of their purse/pocket/holster as to defend themselves.


21 posted on 04/15/2012 7:41:51 AM PDT by ModelBreaker
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To: MtBaldy

Why should the government restrict your right to defend your life?

Suppose a nurse gets a job offer - at a hospital in a bad part of town. She will need to leave and walk to her car after dark. Should she need to sign up for a class, and then wait for the government’s approval before she starts carrying a gun?

I enjoy shooting, and most of my handgun shooting starts at 25 yards...but that has nothing to do with self-defense.

Suppose you have a looney ex who moves to your town 5 years later and starts harassing you, and blaming you for ruining his/her life. Should you have to wait for the government to approve before you start carrying?

A revolver doesn’t take a lot of practice to use effectively for self-defense. At self-defense ranges, all you need is to know how to pull it without snagging it on clothes, and how to pull the trigger.

The right to self-defense is given by God. It can’t be taken away by the state, although most states don’t understand that.

Oh - and the stuff about sweating, etc is bull pucky. A cop going into a dangerous situation will almost certainly feel that. But most self-defense situations don’t allow time for that until after the shooting. THEN you may sweat, feel sick, etc.


22 posted on 04/15/2012 7:51:29 AM PDT by Mr Rogers (A conservative can't please a liberal unless he jumps in front of a bus or off of a cliff)
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To: ModelBreaker
After a gun fight there are no trophies for second place.
23 posted on 04/15/2012 7:52:44 AM PDT by TYVets (Pure-Gas.org ..... ethanol free gasoline by state and city)
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To: rellimpank
Experts say rigorous training needed to prepare gun owners (mild barf alert)

Is "rigorous training" needed to become a journalist? To publish a newspaper or read propaganda from a teleprompter? Is "rigorous training" required before a defendant is entitled to a fair and speedy trial by a jury of his peers? Does he need to be "trained" before his person, papers, and effects are secure from illegal searches and seizures? Does he have to have a law degree to earn the right to confront witnesses?

What other constitutional rights need to be granted by the state following a period of "training?" Answer: NONE!

Our right to keep and bear arms does not arise from the state! Therefore, it cannot qualify that right, or in any way infringe on it.

24 posted on 04/15/2012 8:01:44 AM PDT by IronJack (=)
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To: Mr Rogers

“Why should the government restrict your right to defend your life?”

It comes down to when YOUR right to do anything impinges on OTHERS rights. In the case of CCW that would be others right to be in a public place without deadly attack. It has long been held the 1st Amendment doesn’t allow you to cry, “Fire!”, in a crowded theater because that speech endangers the lives of others. I’m a staunch defender of the 2nd Amendment, and have been a Life Member of the NRA for 20 years, but unless it is implemented responsibly we will lose it.


25 posted on 04/15/2012 8:16:04 AM PDT by MtBaldy (If Obama is the answer, it must have been a really stupid question)
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To: rellimpank

***But Nehls wants people seeking permits to take the most rigorous training available,***

Military handgun training consisted of two hours of shooting 50 rounds. at the gun range on base. We were then qualified for one year.


26 posted on 04/15/2012 8:26:07 AM PDT by Ruy Dias de Bivar
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To: MtBaldy

“In the case of CCW that would be others right to be in a public place without deadly attack.”

Ah, yes - because training is needed to prevent a gun from jumping out and attacking people...

A background check to prevent nuts from buying guns would be nice...oh, but wait, we already have that nationwide. Except, of course, many nuts don’t show up in the system because schools, hospitals, doctors and families cover for them.

And because here in Arizona, that started allowing folks to carry without a permit, we’ve had a huge surge in people gunning down people in public places. Not.

The POINT of carrying is “to be in a public place without deadly attack”.


27 posted on 04/15/2012 8:39:11 AM PDT by Mr Rogers (A conservative can't please a liberal unless he jumps in front of a bus or off of a cliff)
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To: TexasRedeye

Oddly enough, I take a different view.

The citizenry have the right to be armed and defend themselves, but that is the entire extent of the equation, in *any* direction. Nothing else should be mandated or required, no matter its perceived importance. And there is some very deep logic in this.

1) The typical citizen is not, nor can they be trained to be, effective with a gun beyond their desire and means. For the typical person, guns are, and should remain, *a* tool to defend themselves if they want. If they see a gun battle in progress, even if armed, their first inclination should be to protect themselves and their families, *not* to involve themselves in the gunfight.

2) A subset of the citizenry are far more capable and willing to involve themselves in more than a defensive role. This means they are willing to on their own, involve themselves in an effort to prevent a crime in process or to perform citizens arrest of a criminal. And good for them, as they do much to protect us all. But for them, voluntary training is important, so should be encouraged, yet not required.

3) The public hire professional LEOs, who still should be thought of as citizens, to protect society all day and night. They are so busy at this, that they *do* need mandatory training to do it properly. Likewise, they have the extra firepower needed in case criminals are heavily armed. Still most of what they do is clean up after the fact.

4) A CC permit is both an active and passive defense, by the latter I mean that offenders become very aware that someone around them *might* be armed, and this makes their criminal activity much harder and dangerous. They can neither know nor assume training or the lack thereof.


28 posted on 04/15/2012 9:41:01 AM PDT by yefragetuwrabrumuy ("It is already like a government job," he said, "but with goats." -- Iranian goat smuggler)
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To: MtBaldy
MtBaldy said: ... the 1st Amendment doesn’t allow you to cry, “Fire!”, in a crowded theater because that speech endangers the lives of others. "

The 1st Amendment most certainly DOES allow you to cry "Fire" in a crowded theater,... IF THERE IS A FIRE. You don't need the government's permission to do so. You don't need a permit to do so. No training is required. You are completely within your rights to exercise free speech in order to protect the lives of your loved ones and perfect strangers.

Similarly, you are completely within your rights to keep and bear arms and to use those arms to defend yourself with deadly force to protect the lives of your loved ones and others.

I have spent thousands of dollars to obtain permits and the required training that authorizes me to carry concealed in two-thirds of the states of the Union. The average person will never have the resources to do what I have done.

Despite my expenditures, I have not been able to overcome the "reasonable" burden created by the legislature of Kalifornia to demonstrate that I have "good cause" to carry a concealed firearm in my own home state.

The power to decide whether a given person is sufficiently trained or justified in carrying a concealed firearm has been used now for a century to disarm first minorities and then the general populace because liberals don't like guns and fear other people who have them.

To suggest that our Founders intended that the government shall be able to say who is armed and who is not, is to ignore completely the fact that our Founders went to war against their own government and were forced to contend with that government's attempt to disarm them during the military occupation of Boston. The "Shot Heard Round the World" was fired at Lexington and Concord because the existing government had sent troops to disarm the populace.

Our Founders stated in the Declaration, "...all experience hath shown that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, ...". I suffer under the government imposed requirement for justification and training that you appear to support. I'm a veteran trained in the use of arms. It's an insult for you or anybody else to claim that I am in need of more training or justification, after having carried arms in foreign countries.

If you think that I require more training or justification, that is YOUR PROBLEM. It is not my problem and has no bearing on my right to keep and bear arms.

29 posted on 04/15/2012 10:51:37 AM PDT by William Tell
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To: TexasRedeye

As soon as I can find time to “retire” I plan on becoming very active in IPSC. Have names and locations near where I live and am looking forward to it.

If(when) I can find time to slip the golden handcuffs and go home.


30 posted on 04/15/2012 12:40:17 PM PDT by Cuttnhorse
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To: William Tell

“The 1st Amendment most certainly DOES allow you to cry “Fire” in a crowded theater,... IF THERE IS A FIRE”

C’mon, really? You didn’t feel a little bit stupid writing that? I’m sure you understood what I meant.

Do you think if George Zimmerman had been a little better trained he might have stopped and thought, “Maybe I shouldn’t be provoking a confrontation with this possible perp while I’m carrying”?


31 posted on 04/15/2012 2:47:42 PM PDT by MtBaldy (If Obama is the answer, it must have been a really stupid question)
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To: MtBaldy
MtBaldy said: "You didn’t feel a little bit stupid writing that?"

Not at all. People frequently use that example as justification for infringements of the Second Amendment. Since you failed to point out that the First Amendment seldom permits prior restraint, I pointed it out.

Now you can point out why you think the Second Amendment should be crowded with such prior restraints that I can't carry in my home state.

How many concealed carry permits were issued during the lifetimes of our Founders? I'm not aware of any such nonsense.

32 posted on 04/15/2012 3:12:18 PM PDT by William Tell
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To: MtBaldy
MtBaldy said: "Do you think if George Zimmerman had been a little better trained ..."

What exactly are the limits that a person carrying concealed must recognize? Are you suggesting that an unarmed neighborhood watchman must not keep a suspicious person in sight? Or that an armed watchman must give up his rights?

What about the training for Trayvon? Why not institute training for those who go unarmed that they must not treat surveillance as an attack; that a neighborhood watchman has a right to observe people in his neighborhood; and that a watchman may be armed and prepared to defend himself if attacked?

33 posted on 04/15/2012 3:23:49 PM PDT by William Tell
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To: MtBaldy
How about a little hypothetical here?

Suppose that Zimmerman had actually been "Detective Zimmerman", a plain-clothes law enforcement officer moon-lighting as security for the gated community.

Would Detective Zimmerman have hesitated to approach the suspicious person? How would the incident have played out differently?

34 posted on 04/15/2012 3:32:07 PM PDT by William Tell
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To: rellimpank
I strongly recommend that each CCW holder elect to train and practice. A firearm isn't a magic wand, it's a tool, and if you can't use it properly you can't protect yourself, which is, after all, the point.

Unfortunately, any legal requirement to do so carries an enormous potential of abuse by the state. Actually, it is more than potential, it is a long and depressing track record - look, for example, at the barriers the District of Columbia has seen fit to place in the way of firearms ownership once its allowance was mandated by the Supreme Court.

From the article, however, I get the impression that it is voluntary training the Sheriff is talking about. I'm 100% behind that.

35 posted on 04/15/2012 3:44:31 PM PDT by Billthedrill
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To: William Tell

Around here police are police whether on duty or not whether moonlighting as armed security or not so when Martin confronted “Officer” Zimmerman and asked him,”Why are you following me?”, he could have said,”I’m Officer Zimmerman of the Sanford Police and was wondering what you are doing here”. The final outcome, if Martin was still stupid enough to swing on him, would have probably been the same for Martin except an off duty cop would have shot him sooner. The other difference would be “Officer” Zimmerman would still be a free man. So what’s your point?


36 posted on 04/15/2012 5:26:38 PM PDT by MtBaldy (If Obama is the answer, it must have been a really stupid question)
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To: MtBaldy
MtBaldy said: "So what’s your point?"

I was just wondering whether you would recognize the part that Martin's judgement might have played. Had Martin assumed that Zimmerman was justified in his inquiry and had Martin assumed that Zimmerman might be armed, then Martin would perhaps be alive. Zimmerman would not have had to do anything differently.

We've all heard of "suicide by cop". Perhaps we need to recognize "suicide by armed citizen".

37 posted on 04/15/2012 5:34:41 PM PDT by William Tell
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To: William Tell

“What exactly are the limits that a person carrying concealed must recognize?”

Mainly that any altercation you become involved in could turn deadly. When that happens your actions will be judged in the cold clinical environment of the courtroom where your panicked actions might not seem so reasonable to a jury.

“Are you suggesting that an unarmed neighborhood watchman must not keep a suspicious person in sight?”

No, I didn’t say that and the policy of the Neighborhood Watch in Zimmerman’s complex was to try and keep suspicious people in sight from a safe distance. In Zimmerman’s account of events he acted completely appropriately.

“Or that an armed watchman must give up his rights?”

The policy of the Neighborhood watch was no guns just to prevent incidents like this. There is a difference between a volunteer neighborhood watch and paid armed security. I’ve been armed security before and one difference is they usually wear their weapons openly displayed and are in uniform. In that case it probably would have been obvious to Martin why I was following him, but maybe not.

“What about the training for Trayvon?”

Yeah, well, Martin was a thug. Either a gangbanger wannabe or a budding gangbanger. His parents failed miserably at trying to make him a functioning member of society.

Oh, and by the way, to carry as armed security I was State licensed and underwent a much more rigorous training course than any CCW training required.


38 posted on 04/15/2012 5:55:07 PM PDT by MtBaldy (If Obama is the answer, it must have been a really stupid question)
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To: William Tell

“I was just wondering whether you would recognize the part that Martin’s judgement might have played”

Like I said elsewhere, Martin was a thug. He wanted to put a beatdown on Zimmerman for the perceived affront of “dissing” him. Zimmerman had every right to shoot him, especially if Martin was really verbally threatening to kill him. Zimmerman’s gun probably saved his life. I also think it’s a travesty that he’s been charged unless there’s some pretty damning evidence not known to the public yet. Still the troublesome protected minority has to be appeased lest they riot and create more havoc.

Zimmerman should have stayed in his truck or left the gun in there. Granted he might be dead now if he had left without it. From the girlfriend’s original account, since changed I think, when Martin confronted Zimmerman and asked him,”Why are you following me?”, Zimmerman came back with an equally confrontational, “What are you doing here?”. Martin’s question was reasonable, Zimmerman’s response was not. If he had identified himself as a member of the neighborhood watch and said he didn’t recognize Martin and wondered what he was doing in the complex it might have gone differently. It also might not have since it’s pretty clear Martin was a thug and his gangbanger machismo demanded retribution against Zimmerman for “dissing” him. At any rate Martin stopped being reasonable and became a perpetrator when he slugged Zimmerman.


39 posted on 04/15/2012 6:10:54 PM PDT by MtBaldy (If Obama is the answer, it must have been a really stupid question)
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To: rellimpank; Hunton Peck; Diana in Wisconsin; P from Sheb; Shady; DonkeyBonker; Wisconsinlady; ...

Wisconsin concealed carry ping

FReep Mail me if you want on, or off, this wisconsin interest ping list.


40 posted on 04/15/2012 8:33:29 PM PDT by afraidfortherepublic
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