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Martin Case Affidavit
http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/295997/martin-case-affidavit-andrew-c-mccarthy ^ | 4-13-2012 | Andrew C. McCarthy

Posted on 04/13/2012 2:57:34 PM PDT by sheikdetailfeather

I strongly disagree with David French’s analysis. I’m inclined, instead, to agree with commentators ranging from former Reagan Justice Department official Mark Levin to Harvard’s Alan Dershowitz that the affidavit is stunningly weak — “unethical,” as Prof. Dershowitz puts it. In fact, I go further (which, after nearly 20 years of writing and supervising the writing of complaint affidavits, I think I’m qualified to do). This affidavit is not law, it is agitprop: invoking, for example, the explosive term “profiled” but carefully avoiding any discussion of what it means and failing to note that (a) there is no evidence of racial profiling, and (b) absent an invidious racial component there is nothing wrong with profiling (indeed, we want police to do it so that innocent people don’t get hassled).

(Excerpt) Read more at nationalreview.com ...


TOPICS: Crime/Corruption; News/Current Events; Politics/Elections; US: Florida
KEYWORDS: affidavit; andymccarthy; case; georgezimmerman; martin; mccarthy; racism; sourcetitlenoturl; trayvon; trayvonmartin; zimmerman; zimmermanaffidavit
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To: imardmd1
I’m not sure what would be proper justice if that scenario happened. Certainly not murder, but letting Zimmerman go scot-free may not be justice, either.

There you go. Making assumptions and predisposed without hearing all the facts empanelled. No jury duty on this for you, friend.

Really? Saying that I don't know all the facts and don't know what would be the proper legal remedy in this case would keep me off the jury?

Awesome. Until now, I've avoided jury duty by either being in the middle of, or having already completed, a move out of the jurisdiction. Letting the attorneys know that I'm open-minded and undecided is a heck of a lot cheaper and easier than moving to get out of jury duty!

51 posted on 04/14/2012 1:46:27 PM PDT by exDemMom (Now that I've finally accepted that I'm living a bad hair life, I'm more at peace with the world.)
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To: DB
Have we become such sheep that only the “authorities” can follow and question someone on private property as to what they are doing there?

If someone is on your property and you confront them about their presence without the blessings of the “authorities” are you being a vigilante?

Zimmerman was the neighborhood watch captain... There’s no indication whatsoever that Zimmerman was waving a gun around or otherwise looking for a fight.

I do not know all the facts here, and neither do you. What I *do* know is that if I see someone I think may be suspicious, I'm not going anywhere near them. I'll go to a safe place and call the police. I do think that Zimmerman might have been leaning towards vigilanteism when he chose to keep following Martin.

52 posted on 04/14/2012 1:56:19 PM PDT by exDemMom (Now that I've finally accepted that I'm living a bad hair life, I'm more at peace with the world.)
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To: exDemMom
I *do* know that the 911 operator told Zimmerman to stay away, which he did not do (and which would have been prudent).

How do you know that?

The police operator suggested he didn't need to follow Martin. Zimmerman replied "OK" and apparently limited his "pursuit" to an attempt to see where Martin was heading, so that he could direct the responding officer. It was dark. He told the dispatcher he lost Martin. And when the dispatcher asked for Zimmerman's address, he broke off giving his full address, saying he wasn't sure where Martin was (i.e., for all Zimmerman knew, close enough to overhear him uttering his address!).

Zimmerman's story is that Martin appeared out of the shadows and accosted him as he was returning to his truck and attacked him. Unless the prosecution can disprove that, Zimmerman can't be convicted of anything.

I'm afraid that if Zimmerman is not punished (even by a slap on the wrist), we'll see a deluge of similar incidents, all pointing at the Zimmerman case for their defense.

Tough skittles! That's no rationale for justice.

53 posted on 04/14/2012 2:08:18 PM PDT by cynwoody
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To: wtc911
We know that Martin ran away from a grown stranger, an act of avoidance, why would he change his mind and attack?

If you're basing this comment on the initial call GZ made to the police then you're misconstruing what happened..perhaps intentionally.

As to why Martin would return and confront GZ a few minutes later, the answer seems obvious. A better question might be, if Martin were afraid for his safety why did he return at all?

54 posted on 04/14/2012 2:20:15 PM PDT by mac_truck ( Aide toi et dieu t aidera)
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To: mac_truck
As to why Martin would return and confront GZ a few minutes later, the answer seems obvious. A better question might be, if Martin were afraid for his safety why did he return at all?

______________________________________________________

A) Obvious? Please tell us exactly what was in Trayvon's mind after he ran away from the stranger who followed both in a car and on foot.

B) What is the name of the eyewitness who says that he saw Martin return? Please provide that detail.

55 posted on 04/14/2012 3:29:10 PM PDT by wtc911 (Amigo - you've been had.)
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To: exDemMom

Yes, that was my first thought before I spent some time really reading about the case. From all that is known, particularly about the timeline and locations (none of which is dependent upon Zimmerman’s account) the one thing that I am absolutely certain did not happen is Zimmerman chasing, pursuing or stalking Martin.

Zimmerman first saw Martin a 3-4 minute walk (or less) from the house where Martin was staying. Zimmerman’s call lasted more than four minutes. Zimmerman lost sight of Martin two minutes before hanging up with police, and Martin, at that time, was only about 100 yards from home.

If Martin was nervous, or even if he wasn’t nervous, but he just wanted to go home, he had more than enough time to do so before Zimmerman’s initial call even ended.

Yet five minutes after leaving Zimmerman’s sight, he lay dead on the ground, not 250 feet from Zimmerman’s car.

I do not know why he didn’t go home, I only know that he could have done so if he wanted to, and Zimmerman couldn’t have stopped him without the police operator hearing the whole thing.

Obviously, I have no idea exactly what happened in the two and a half minutes between Zimmerman hanging up and the beginning of the 911 calls, but Martin fleeing from a pursuing Zimmerman is the least likely possibility.


56 posted on 04/14/2012 3:39:23 PM PDT by PhatHead
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To: wtc911
1) Martin confronted Zimmerman first...
____________________________
Please provide a link to an eyewitness sttement that says so.

Well, we don't have the eyewitness statements, of course, but according to Martin family attorney Benjamin Crump, it was Martin's girlfriend "DeeDee" who reported that she heard Martin begin the conversation. This has been quite widely reported - here, for example. An excerpt:

She said the next thing she heard was Martin saying, “Why are you following me?” Then, Crump said, she heard another voice — presumably Zimmerman’s — saying, “What are you doing around here?”
You can question DeeDee's (or Crump's) credibility, I suppose, but it seems unlikely either would want to support Zimmerman's story.
57 posted on 04/14/2012 3:47:56 PM PDT by PhatHead
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To: pogo101; boop

There is a murder 3 on the books in Florida, but it would not apply here (I know, I know - murder 2 doesn’t appear to, either.) For murder 3 Zimmerman would need to have killed while engaged in perpetration of another felony.

Manslaughter is automatically a lesser included charge under murder 2.


58 posted on 04/14/2012 3:53:54 PM PDT by PhatHead
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To: ncalburt
Bondi is a moron

She's another one that will be run out on a rail.

59 posted on 04/14/2012 4:10:10 PM PDT by Rome2000 (Rick Santorum -Mission Accomplished)
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To: wtc911
Please tell us exactly what was in Trayvon's mind after he ran away from the stranger who followed both in a car and on foot.

Impossible..in no small measure because it never happened.

Where exactly did you gin up the idea that Zimmerman followed Martin in his car anyway?

You also failed to answer the basic question.. why did Martin, who had eluded Zimmerman and was supposed to be in fear of his safety, return at all?

Can we cross "Martin feared for his own safety" off the list of his possible motivations in the minutes before he was shot?

60 posted on 04/14/2012 5:06:07 PM PDT by mac_truck ( Aide toi et dieu t aidera)
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To: PhatHead
You can question DeeDee's (or Crump's) credibility, I suppose, but it seems unlikely either would want to support Zimmerman's story.

Is this the same 'witness' who withheld information from the authorities for three weeks and only came forward after the police tapes and other evidence were released?

Is this the same 'witness' who didn't even bother to check and see what happened to her 'boyfriend' for five days after he told her he was being followed and then the phone went dead?

Yeah..I'd say she has a credibility issue.

61 posted on 04/14/2012 5:18:24 PM PDT by mac_truck ( Aide toi et dieu t aidera)
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To: mac_truck

If you want to talk about this you really should read the PD transcripts and reports. Until then you just sound, well, stupid.


62 posted on 04/14/2012 5:54:21 PM PDT by wtc911 (Amigo - you've been had.)
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To: PhatHead

I would be careful quoting the GF...if you want to take part of her story you have to take all of it...and it has zimmerman still following martin...not going back to his truck.


63 posted on 04/14/2012 5:59:51 PM PDT by wtc911 (Amigo - you've been had.)
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To: wtc911
I would be careful quoting the GF...if you want to take part of her story you have to take all of it...and it has zimmerman still following martin...not going back to his truck.

I'm not sure why that's a problem. It's perfectly legal to get out of your truck, and even to follow somebody - even to ask them what they are doing in the neighborhood. And it really doesn't contradict Zimmerman's account in any way.

The important point of DeeDee's account (as it has been conveyed in the press anyway) is that it was Martin who confronted Zimmerman.

And I have to tell you, I just keep coming back to the indisputable fact that Martin had ample time to return home, without even running, before Zimmerman ever hung up the phone with police. It is also indisputable that he did not do that. And I just can't square that with the version that has Zimmerman "chasing" him.

64 posted on 04/14/2012 6:30:36 PM PDT by PhatHead
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To: mac_truck

Well, the police certainly had the ability to go and question her. The reports that they didn’t do that are one part of the investigation that I find terribly irresponsible (if true.)

And I’m not sure why you think she didn’t bother to check on him for five days. I haven’t read that. But his parents were informed and his name was reported in the local news the next day, so it’s a little hard for me to believe she didn’t know what happened.

And again, her account tends to support Zimmerman’s - hard to figure why she would lie on Zimmerman’s behalf.


65 posted on 04/14/2012 6:35:32 PM PDT by PhatHead
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To: wtc911
IOW you can't back up your little fantasy that Zimmerman followed Martin in his car.

If you can't support the stupid crap you post and you can't answer the very basic questions I asked you up-thread..maybe its time to stifle your sanctimonious prattle.

66 posted on 04/14/2012 6:36:36 PM PDT by mac_truck ( Aide toi et dieu t aidera)
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To: exDemMom

Tragic misunderstanding, yeah good chance that’s it.
SOMEBODY initiated unwarranted combat.
Methinks the one who did already got capital punishment for doing so.


67 posted on 04/14/2012 6:42:16 PM PDT by ctdonath2 ($1 meals: http://abuckaplate.blogspot.com/)
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To: wtc911
The one thing that I wonder about is this. Who initiated the contact, or in the alternative moved into "contact space" in an aggressive manner? "Following" can range from a distance to approaching someone from behind and gaining. How I respond would vary from a calm to a very aggressive counter-measure depending on how the "following" occurred.

While I don't practice crim law, I don't see 2nd degree based on what is public knowledge. Manslaughter (or no charges at all) I can see depending on how things sort out. I don't know the non-public information.

68 posted on 04/14/2012 7:03:10 PM PDT by Darren McCarty (Time for brokered convention)
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To: PhatHead
Well, the police certainly had the ability to go and question her. The reports that they didn’t do that are one part of the investigation that I find terribly irresponsible (if true.)

Lol..where did you hear that?..at Huffington Post?

And I’m not sure why you think she didn’t bother to check on him for five days.

Because no one knew about her until they checked through Martin's phone records, something that did not occur immediately at the start of the investigation. After she became known she refused to cooperate with investigators. Eventually she talked to the DOJ civil rights unit, but only after many other pieces of evidence were known and only after having extensive contact with the Martin family and their attorneys.

And again, her account tends to support Zimmerman’s - hard to figure why she would lie on Zimmerman’s behalf.

I have no idea what you're talking about here, and considering the probable cause affidavit relies heavily on her statements neither does the state of Florida. Without her so-called witness testimony, George Zimmerman would not be sitting in jail.

69 posted on 04/14/2012 7:20:03 PM PDT by mac_truck ( Aide toi et dieu t aidera)
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To: mac_truck

What are you talking about? You say the police didn’t check Martin’s phone at the start of the investigation, then ask me where I came up with the exact same piece of information. I really don’t understand what it is you disagree with.

If she refused to cooperate, as you say, this is something I have not previously read. I am not denying it, but would appreciate a link to those reports.

And the charging affidavit may or may not rely on her statements. All I know is that it does not cite her statement in asserting that Zimmerman initiated the confrontation.

I also don’t know for sure what her statement is. I only know that Martin family attorney Crump informed the press some time ago that it was her account that Martin initiated the conversation/confrontation. Maybe Crump was wrong. Maybe she changed her story. I don’t know. All I know is that the only version of her story that has been publicly reported does not contradict Zimmerman’s account (as it is publicly known.)

If she has changed her statement, and did refuse to cooperate, then she will clearly not make a very credible witness for either side.


70 posted on 04/14/2012 8:09:21 PM PDT by PhatHead
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To: exDemMom
Really? Saying that I don't know all the facts and don't know what would be the proper legal remedy in this case would keep me off the jury?

Sorry if I unintentionally offended you. It just seemed to me from your comment that your mind was already predisposed that letting Mr. Z. go scot-free would not likely serve justice, nor would a murder conviction. Saying:

"I’m not sure what would be proper justice if that scenario happened."

would be a fair and impartial statement. But under questioning in voir dire about any leaning you already had, if you added to the above and answered with:

"Certainly not murder, but letting Zimmerman go scot-free may not be justice, either."

then I doubt that either the judge, prosecutor, or defense would seat you. The only mindset acceptable would give the message:

"I will only know when I have heard all the testimony to be given."

In truth, pretty much whatever you have heard on this website or other media outlet is hearsay; and not fit, no matter how compelling, for causing one to be swayed from neutrality in the matter as regarding jury service. N'est ce pas?"

71 posted on 04/14/2012 9:50:32 PM PDT by imardmd1 (Truth in journalism -- impossible?)
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To: exDemMom
I say that because I have these nightmare visions of vigilante squads out there taking justice into their own hands. I have the impression that Zimmerman was straying into vigilante territory when this incident occurred.

It all depends on who first got physical.

I strongly doubt it was Zimmerman, who had just summoned an official audience to witness his conduct.

72 posted on 04/14/2012 10:17:00 PM PDT by cynwoody
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To: Cyber Liberty
It wasn’t a 911 call or operator.

Granted, the call in question was to the "non-emergency" number, IOW, not 911.

Nonetheless, the gentleman in question, Sean *The Cannon* Noffke, lists his occupation as "911 Operator" for the "Seminole County Sherrifs Office".

73 posted on 04/14/2012 10:35:24 PM PDT by cynwoody
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To: USFRIENDINVICTORIA
911 dispatchers, like air traffic controllers, space ground controllers, etc. need to speak in clear, unambiguous language. Polite circumlocutions, and other ambiguities, can cause deaths.

Quite so.

I'll bet Sean wishes he could have reached through that communication line and reeled Zimmerman back into his truck!

74 posted on 04/14/2012 10:40:31 PM PDT by cynwoody
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To: cynwoody

OK. Not a sworn police officer either way. Doesn’t matter what he told Z, he wasn’t disobeying a lawful order.


75 posted on 04/14/2012 10:52:22 PM PDT by Cyber Liberty (The only flaw is that America doesn't recognize Cyber's omniscience. -- sergeantdave)
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To: Cyber Liberty
OK. Not a sworn police officer

My guess would be not. LOL.

76 posted on 04/14/2012 11:09:42 PM PDT by cynwoody
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To: Darren McCarty
The one thing that I wonder about is this. Who initiated the contact, or in the alternative moved into "contact space" in an aggressive manner?

_______________________________

That is the thing that nobody but Zimmerman knows. Without an eyewitness (reliable) to give details nobody can say what they "know" happened. And, absent that I don't see how he can be convicted.

77 posted on 04/15/2012 7:07:32 AM PDT by wtc911 (Amigo - you've been had.)
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To: Darren McCarty
The one thing that I wonder about is this. Who initiated the contact, or in the alternative moved into "contact space" in an aggressive manner?

Logic dictates that it was Trayvon Martin who initiated contact. He had already approached Zimmerman in an aggressive manner once while Zimmerman was in his car. He had also ditched Zimmerman once so all he had to do was either go inside or keep on going if he felt threatened. What other reason would Trayvon Martin have for returning up the path toward Zimmerman's truck other than to confront him?

78 posted on 04/15/2012 8:57:35 PM PDT by mac_truck ( Aide toi et dieu t aidera)
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To: cynwoody
How do you know that?

I know that because it's been in the news. Tough skittles! That's no rationale for justice.

Actually, from everything I've ever heard about the justice system, is that its primary purpose is to prevent vigilanteism. Some people who are already predisposed to wanting to take matters into their own hands most certainly would use the Zimmerman case as justification if it looks like he got away with vigilanteism.

79 posted on 04/17/2012 3:53:53 AM PDT by exDemMom (Now that I've finally accepted that I'm living a bad hair life, I'm more at peace with the world.)
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To: PhatHead
If Martin was nervous, or even if he wasn’t nervous, but he just wanted to go home, he had more than enough time to do so before Zimmerman’s initial call even ended.

Let's put it this way. From Martin's point of view, this guy was watching him and making phone calls. For all Martin knew, this guy was calling his gang buddies to come jump him, and keeping him in sight so that they'd all know where to go when they arrived. What's to prevent a gang from breaking down the door or the windows of the house, if they really want to get him?

I'm not condemning anyone here. I'm saying that what I think happened is a tragic series of events, in which intentions were misread on both sides. I do not know for sure, though--just like no one else commenting knows either.

80 posted on 04/17/2012 4:02:40 AM PDT by exDemMom (Now that I've finally accepted that I'm living a bad hair life, I'm more at peace with the world.)
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To: ctdonath2
Tragic misunderstanding, yeah good chance that’s it.
SOMEBODY initiated unwarranted combat.
Methinks the one who did already got capital punishment for doing so.

A person who feels threatened enough may, in fact, initiate combat if they feel that the situation is rapidly deteriorating. That doesn't mean they are the aggressor.

81 posted on 04/17/2012 4:07:40 AM PDT by exDemMom (Now that I've finally accepted that I'm living a bad hair life, I'm more at peace with the world.)
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To: imardmd1
"Certainly not murder, but letting Zimmerman go scot-free may not be justice, either."

then I doubt that either the judge, prosecutor, or defense would seat you. The only mindset acceptable would give the message:

"I will only know when I have heard all the testimony to be given."

In truth, pretty much whatever you have heard on this website or other media outlet is hearsay; and not fit, no matter how compelling, for causing one to be swayed from neutrality in the matter as regarding jury service. N'est ce pas?"

I am a scientist, not a lawyer, and my language reflects that. Scientists are not trained to say, "I'll wait until I see all the evidence to make up my mind." We are trained to express possibilities as a means of both saying that we don't have enough facts to decide, and of suggesting the kind of evidence that would enable a decision. That is what I did. Although maybe I was too certain in saying that I don't think this is a case of intentional murder.

I've no doubt that if I were being questioned as a part of jury selection, the lawyers would have all kinds of questions.

82 posted on 04/17/2012 4:20:55 AM PDT by exDemMom (Now that I've finally accepted that I'm living a bad hair life, I'm more at peace with the world.)
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To: exDemMom

Yes, I understand, and again that’s one of the scenarios that first came to my mind a few weeks ago. But now, knowing quite a bit more detail about the timeline and locations, I just have a very hard time fitting that to the known facts.

Again, Martin was completely out of Zimmerman’s sight with more than enough time to walk home before Zimmerman’s call ended. Yet the shooting took place at nearly that exact spot five minutes later. He did not move at all.

I think we also need to consider what would actually be a reasonable assumption by either man under the circumstances, as well.

Martin, knowing he is a stranger in this neighborhood, has just seconds earlier walked past the “Neighborhood Watch, suspicious persons will be reported to the police” sign at the gate. The person he sees is in a vehicle inside the gate. His first reaction is to approach the vehicle, not run away. If he saw this person on the phone, given the facts above, would “gang member calling for reinforcements” really be the natural thing to assume?

By the time they are face to face, what does Zimmerman know? This guy was loitering in the rain, took off when he saw I was on the phone, and now, five minutes later, he’s still waiting for me right where I last saw him. What’s the reasonable assumption for him? Maybe that his initial suspicion was justified?

Al I am saying is that the one thing we know Martin did not do is try to run home. Another thing we can safely assume is that neither answered the other’s question. And I have a hard time jumping from that to second degree murder.


83 posted on 04/17/2012 7:20:30 AM PDT by PhatHead
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To: PhatHead

DeeDee’s Mom says she had never seen DeeDee so upset after she was informed she was the last to speak w/ TM. So upset she had to be hospitialized. Think about that, more upset than when she learned of his death. More likely it was that she could no longer keep secret she was on the phone. She’s going to have a tough time on the stand if it gets that far.


84 posted on 04/17/2012 8:44:08 AM PDT by ironman
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To: ironman

Yes, I read that, too. Zimmerman’s attorney will have to be careful cross-examining her. You’d have to think his questioning would try to point out that if she was so traumatized she had to be hospitalized, her recollections of the conversation are probably not that reliable. But he can’t appear to be picking on her.


85 posted on 04/17/2012 8:26:59 PM PDT by PhatHead
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