Posted on 03/25/2012 12:30:48 PM PDT by Steelfish
Witness: Zimmerman 'Never ... Tried To Help' Trayvon Martin
By NBC News, msnbc.com staff and news services
A woman who says she and her roommate witnessed the final moments of Trayvon Martin's life told Dateline NBC that George Zimmerman had "his hands pressed on his back" and "never turned him over or tried to help him."
Zimmerman's lawyer, when shown part of the interview being aired Sunday night on Dateline, emphasized that his client would be claiming self-defense.
"I think there were efforts made to render aid to Trayvon," Craig Sonner told NBC's TODAY show.
Mary Cutcher told Dateline that she and her roommate both saw Zimmerman "straddling the body, basically a foot on both sides of Trayvon's body, and his hands pressed on his back."
Cutcher added that Zimmerman told her and her roommate to call the police. "Zimmerman never turned him over or tried to help him or CPR or anything," Cutcher said.
Sonner also reiterated what he had said in recent days, that Zimmerman suffered a broken nose and a gash to the back of his head.
A friend of Zimmerman's who appeared on TODAY with Sonner added that Zimmerman, 28, was distraught over the teen's death.
"Right after the shooting he couldn't stop crying," said Joe Oliver, who is African American and a former TV reporetr and anchor in Orlando.
Zimmerman has not been charged in the Feb. 26 shooting that has ignited racial tensions and raised questions about the Sanford police's handling of the case. Martin was black, and Zimmerman's father is white and his mother is Hispanic.
In a separate interview Sunday, Oliver said that "I'm a black male and all that I know is that George has never given me any reason whatsoever to believe he has anything against people of color.''
(Excerpt) Read more at usnews.msnbc.msn.com ...
“Trayvon was on top of Zimmerman, punching him in the face, while Zimmerman as screaming for help. Are you telling me that Zimmerman should just have relaxed and taken the beating?”
I have heard everything BUT : )
Another posted a Miami Herald article, that was so hopelessly slanted against Zimmerman, as to be laughable.
That is a true nightmare.
They go from thread to thread repeating the same thing. They argue based on speculation (prove this didn’t happen!), and use overblown rhetoric (”stalking” etc.).
I've stayed out of this particular controversy up until now, since, based on quite a bit of associated knowledge, I can generally say that most shootings do not involve a "good guy" and a "bad guy"... usually they both are shady to some degree. But that's not what caught my eye in your post.
You are asserting that you cannot start a fight and claim self-defense (as an attack on Zimmerman, I assume... it will be interesting to see what you will say if it is established that Martin jumped Zimmerman). But there is a corollary: you cannot continue a fight beyond reasonable means either.
True story: a friend of mine in high school had a bully who was threatening him in the school. It was because the bully thought that my friend was hitting on the bully's girlfriend (the truth was that the girl spent more time on her back than a luge driver... and was hitting on my friend... along with every other male in the school. But that's neither here nor there).
After school one day, the bully followed my friend out of school and across the street to a McDonalds. In the parking lot, the bully attempted to start a fight. My friend turn around and walked away, at which point the bully jumped on his back from behind. After about a minute of struggling, my friend managed to get the bully far enough around his body so that he could lunge forward and slam the guy's head into a nearby parked car. This stunned the bully, so my friend repeated the maneuver about five more times, leaving pronounced dents in the car and the bully dazed on the pavement.
When the police arrived, my friend told his story to the police. BOTH were arrested and charged with assault. Why was my friend charged? According to the statutes in the state of VA, my friend could respond defensively to the attack up to the point where he was able to disengage and was not under direct assault (after the first head slam). The fact that he continued to slam the bully's head AFTER he got the upper hand was now an assault!
So, assume that Zimmerman walked up to Martin, called him the "N" word, spit in his face, and grabbed him by the testicles. Martin would have had every right to lash out in self defense UNTIL HE COULD DISENGAGE (since the stand-your-ground law does not apply here, according to the law's author). However, sitting on top of Zimmerman and pummeling him (as witnesses describe and as physical evidence supports) immediately transforms Martin from the victim to the aggressor (in the eyes of the law), at which point Zimmerman, even if he initiated the conflict, could then act in his OWN self defense (once again ignoring stand-your-ground, since it doesn't apply).
If Martin was alive today, he could (and probably would) be charged with assault, since his aggressive actions at the end of the fight went beyond what was necessary to protect himself. Just like you can't chase a guy down the street and shoot him, you can't sit on a guy and pummel him after you have the upper hand. That's the law (whether right or wrong).
I know the law well enough to be certain of its application, given a supposed fact pattern.
If Zimmerman is retreating, has broken off searching for Trayvon, then Zimmerman is not in the act of closing distance between himself and Martin. He's not looking for any sort of confrontation - not a verbal one, not a physical one.
There was a physical altercation. I find the available evidence to have Martin the aggressor. The 911 call has Zimmerman screaming for help, so it seems he doesn't have the option of escape.
The question at that point isn't whether or not Zimmerman exhausted means of escape. The justification of use of deadly force depends on reasonably apprehending serious injury or death. Being beaten with fists by a person who has overwhelmed you with physical force EASILY meets that threshold.
-- If Zimmerman provoked the use of force by Martin, then he could not have used deadly force unless he had exhausted every means to escape the danger other than the use of deadly force. --
A number of posters have the impression that following a person is adequate provocation, under the law, to justify use of physical force. It's not. All the indicators point away from Zimmerman provoking or initiating force.
If Martin was afraid, and had eluded Zimmerman, then Martin's best action is to get in the house where he is staying - all the while avoiding Zimmerman. And if Zimmerman comes into view, all Martin has to do is state "I'm staying at xxx with my dad.", or even a less cordial, "buzz off, bitch. What I'm doing here is none of your business." I don't see Zimmerman, who is armed, risking a physical altercation at his own initiative. He'd be the aggressor, lost the right of self defense, if things get bad he'd end up on a manslaughter charge. His CCW training taught him that.
” Maybe you should read post 343.”
OK, I read it. Pretty thoughtful, I might add. However, if it turns out that Zimmerman was attacked from behind, and the kid was on top of him, and beating him fiercely, Zimmerman had a right to defend himself, period! They might slap a lesser manslaughter charge on him, but I doubt it.
I also see no evidence that Zimmerman wanted to manhandle, or shoot anybody, unless you think a big guy beating the crap out of you is no reason to finally, pull out your gun and shoot.
I think your right./s
I see this scenario. Zimmerman calls 911 because of a suspicious person in the neighborhood which has had numerous house invasions/ burglaries in the last 18 months. no information until 911 call with voice identified as Zimmerman screaming for help. Zimmerman in described as having a broken nose, grass stains on the back of his shirt and lacerations on the back of his head. One witness says that Hoodie person is on top Zimmerman beating him. Hoodie is dead.
Why don’t we wait for the final police and autopsy report to see angle of bullet, injuries to Hoodie, knuckles of Zimmerman.
FYI to date:
http://www.sanfordfl.gov/index.html
You know the cops are on the way.
Do you try to run away?
Do you try and fight back?
Or do you try to cover up and take the punches?
Do you really think you are going to be dead from your injuries by the time police arrive?
Oh your wondering why it all went so wrong? and your head and nose hurts so you pull your gun and shoot the guy you confronted?
You NOW think playing the victim and hope it will all go away just as easy as the young life you took away?
It will all go away just as easy as the son you took away from his mother and father?
You now know that they perceive you as being an armed man going out of his way to follow a stranger and whether or not you were aware of the potential for confrontations you must be held accountable for the outcome.
Now it is YOU they want. Anything else will make RodneyKing look like a picnic and it WE THE PEOPLE don't want to give them their Reichstag Fire moment that we cannot afford at this time.
Ridiculous. Support this statement.
I missed the 'provocation' exception in the Florida Stand Your Ground act when I first posted from it. Cboldt picked up on it from the full Chapter 776 I linked and quoted the provocation exception.
There is one, but it's not absolute. Florida Statute 776.041(2) says the Stand Your Ground justification isn't available to a person who:
(a) Such force is so great that the person reasonably believes that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm and that he or she has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger other than the use of force which is likely to cause death or great bodily harm to the assailant; or (b) In good faith, the person withdraws from physical contact with the assailant and indicates clearly to the assailant that he or she desires to withdraw and terminate the use of force, but the assailant continues or resumes the use of force.Initially provokes the use of force against himself or herself, unless:
I'm specifically not opining as to whether Zimmerman met either or both of those exceptions, because I haven't seen the police report (and it may well include conflicting statements) or heard from all of the witnesses, or Zimmerman, and we'll never hear from Martin. I'm simply pointing out that there is a provocation exception in the Florida Stand Your Ground law, and I appreciate Cboldt drawing my attention to it.
The big guy was zimmerman he was about fifty pounds over the kid. The kid was a string bean.
I’m really surprised. I sent a not to the admin to see if we were really allowing MSNBC sourced “stories” now.
Hank
That seems to be what the lynch crowd is claiming, that Zimmerman should not have defended himself against the stronger, bigger young foot ball player, who ws sitting on him, beating his face in.
Someone just posted that Zimmerman should cover himself from the blows as best he could until the cops got there.....freakin Twilight Zone.
” That seems to be what the lynch crowd is claiming, that Zimmerman should not have defended himself against the stronger, bigger young foot ball player, who ws sitting on him, beating his face in.”
Yep....just posted.....amazing. They obviously never have been beaten badly, or feared for their life. I have....you do whatever you have to do to free yourself, even if it means pulling a gun.
So your reasoning is that if you follow somebody as part of your job and he turns around and beats you to death, you have no right to defend yourself in whatever way you can.
You ought to read the rap you are posting with an open mind. You should not try to represent that you understand either the intent or the letter of the law here.
Unless you have an eyewitness statement or police evidence to establish that Zimmerman assaulted Martin (according to the legal definition of assault), you are simply practicing wishful thinking/supposition. Regardless, stand your ground applies to defensive actions, not offensive ones. Once you become the aggressor, you lose that protection.
” No, zimmerman should have been in his car playing with his gun and left the kid along, like the operator said. He had no legal right to mess with the kid. “
Thanks for this post. Now I know you have no idea what you are talking about.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2863797/posts
Have you seen this additon to the grist mill.
Media is in full cannonization/demonization mode.
One was under 5-9. The other was 6-2, 200.
One was a pudgy little fellow. The other was a high school football player.
I believe that 49% of the people in the complex are white, 20% black, 23% latino ... and what ever else is left is “other”.
re his height and weight i will wait for the autopsy report. No need to speculate facts.
If you just had your nose broken and the guy who broke your nose who is continuing to beat on you of you has you trapped and says he's going to kill you and you have a gun and you use it - that's self defense.
Your attacker in the heat of the moment can not have as much right to beat you to death as you have to defend yourself.
It makes no difference whether your job was to follow him or not to reduce neighborhood crime. It makes no difference whatsoever what caused him to start beating on you, or why he is upset with you.
Wrong, you are posting rumor.
I often go up to strangers in the ‘Neighborhood’ and ask them if I can be of assistance. That is not “messing” as you phrase it. So far there have been no confrontations. Others also do it.
Wrong, you are posting rumor. http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Trayvon_Martin
LOL.
Even Hitler had baby pictures.
No reasonable well intentioned person could ever agree to that.
It's called 'neighborhood watch' not 'neighborhood follow' for a reason.
“One was under 5-9. The other was 6-2, 200.
One was a pudgy little fellow. The other was a high school football player. “
This thread is disgusting. See ya elsewhere : )
You could wait for the autopsy and the hearings.
I don’t argue facts but agitators try to promote lies for argument and political ends.
That photo is from the Facebook page of this Trayvon Martin:
http://www.facebook.com/people/Trayvon-Martin/100001791912868
This is the Facebook page of the Trayvon Martin who was killed in Florida:
http://www.facebook.com/people/Trayvon-Slimm-Martin/1353307542
The onus is also on you to demonstrate how anything Zimmerman did could in any way have compromised his legal right to self defense.
So far you have posted absolutely nothing regarding either of these.
And remember, the law does not operate under the principle of 'guilty until proven innocent' for some very good reasons, even if you do.
If I (God forbid) attacked anybody who has a gun and he shoots my ass, I should be prepared to accept (assuming I’m still around) that he may be able to construct a reasonable legal argument that he did so in self defense (I’m 6’5” 270lb).
Some people seem to be getting off posting lies about this kid. I just do not get it? Thanks.
as is wikipedia:
try: http://www.sanfordfl.gov/index.html
for what has been relayed by offical reports thus far.
Witness: Zimmerman ‘Never ... Tried To Help’ Trayvon Martin
TV transcripts indicate that they did not see anything until the deed was done and over. Find your own link to CNN.
And do me the courtesy of remembering that Zimmerman has at least one corroborating witness during the crucial part when you respond and that exculpatory 'reasonable doubt' applies in the eyes of any workable legal system. I don't give a crap about vigilante mob action.
Possible/probable scenario: Zimmerman lost sight of Martin/retreated, Zimmerman was unsuspectingly jumped/overpowered by Martin, Zimmerman was on the ground getting pummeled/could't retreat, possible tussle for his gun which may have fallen out of holster or taken out by Zimmerman OR Martin, Zimmerman takes control and does the only thing he can at that point to not get shot himself.
Here’s a profile of Martin you won’t get from the media....and this mostly from his own entries on the net....photos show his gold teeth, tatoos and all which you never see with the media...nor his apparent getting weed for others. This site reporting on this has the acutual posts made and below you can go to his my space page directly..though I don’t know how long it will be there...
Photos......Even though Trayvon was only 17,........ he already was sporting gold teeth, and several large tattoos. This one was on his wrist, apparently of his mother’s name.....another photo, shows another large tattoo that took up most of his upper arm.
His screen name on Twitter was “@NO_LIMIT_NIGGA, . He was also a member of a twitter hash group #team4dat.
The account was in existence long before the shooting occurred a few weeks ago, and was deleted only recently, there are still dozens of references to @NO_LIMIT_NIGGA in google’s cache.
The associated twitpic account matches the account name and is still online at the time of publication. Most of the pics were uploaded months ago, so this account was associated with Trayvon long before the shooting took place.
Several of Tray’s friends have been very open about referring to Trayvon using that account as well. His cousin, who is quite active on Twitter, refers to Trayvon more than a dozen times using the @NO_LIMIT_NIGGA nickname.
Violence & Gang Activity
There seem to be several allusions to violence on Tray’s Twitter account.
a post makes reference to Trayvon having “swung on a bus driver” a few days before he died.
Did that have something to do with his ten-day suspension?
On Trayvon’s MySpace page, at least one of his top friends, Romario305, is featured making a gang sign towards the camera in his default profile picture.
Almost all of this is in stark contrast to the media’s central narrative that Trayvon was a normal, happy, well-adjusted teenager.
Instead of that, we are seeing long suspensions from school, tattoos, racially-charged epitaphs, and violence.
Drug Culture
Several of his friends have posted pictures of rolled blunts to twitter in memorial to Trayvon.
There is also fairly direct evidence that Trayvon may have been a small-time drug-dealer.
On Facebook on February 5th, his friend posts on his wall asking to talk business. Trayvon says he doesn’t have a phone available and his friend says, “Damn were u at a nigga needa plant.”
Unless Trayvon was selling Orchids, it seems fairly reasonable to posit that he may have been somewhat well-known among his friends for selling marijuana.
http://www.myspace.com/t_r_a_y_9/photos/albums/my-photos/821131
The guy just had a bloody nose. He got off lucky.
OH...and following a person from a DISTANCE...and not even speaking to them? What law did Zimmerman break?
What’s really messed up is that I see some here tending toward the argument that if somebody gets someone else riled up doing by doing something perfectly legal that that gives the offended party the right to assault him or her and removes the right to self defense from the assaulted party.
. . . and that was the purpose of linking the Florida law here: so others can apply the actual Florida law to fact patterns.
“The use of deadly force to repel a non-deadly attack violates the due process clause of the constitution. “
BS. According to you someone must take a beating that can render them disabled, disfigured, or possibly dead. If you don’t want to get dead don’t attack someone else.
There should be a constitutional clause that says lethal force may be applied any time a physical attack happens that is beyond petty assault. Petty assault being nothing more than a push, shove, or poke. If you don’t want to be killed kepp your cotton picking fingers off other people.
Thanks for the dose of reality!
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