Based on just the facts we know, this is going to be a very difficult case for the State of Florida to resolve.
I’m unclear about something that the Florida “stand your ground” law covers, maybe a Florida CCW aware FReeper can help me out.
Clearly, you can’t use deadly force in a fight you provoke and then plead self-defense. I think that’s true everywhere, whether or not there is a “stand your ground” law.
Clearly, the “stand your ground” law eliminates a “duty to retreat”, which includes by implication a “duty to de-escalate”.
But the right to use deadly force to remain in any place you have a right to be (sounds good, I’ve supported it for NH) seems to create ambiguous situations like this one. This fight, which escalated to deadly force because Zimmerman was in reasonable fear of imminent bodily harm might have escalated BECAUSE Zimmerman was armed. IOW, without CCW PLUS “stand your ground”, Zimmerman might have de-escalated.
“Stand your ground”, in order to be good law, has to cover all kinds of people in all (normal and expected) mental states, all the time. I’m not sure that “stand your ground” doesn’t set up situations like this one for recurrence.
That’s beyond my pay-grade, JN. We have “Castle Doctrine” here, and I’m going to re-read that new law in a little while, to be sure I *know* what it allows.
Spoken like a true liberal. A person has the right to defend themselves even if they managed to piss someone off to the point the other person attacks them physically. If your life is in danger you have the right to use deadly force to protect it. You are saying that "no, a person doesn't have that right if they pissed the other person off". As for having a CCW escalating the situation that is pure BS, concealed means just that, concealed. Apparently the law knows the guy isn't guilty of murder or he would have had his CCW pulled by now.
Stand your ground laws are good laws and have reduced the crime rate in Florida, and other states, by a huge amount since being enacted and have saved many lives. People with your attitude don't belong on a conservative forum.
But according to what is in the police report (sorry,don’t have marktwain’s police report pdf thread handy) he did de-escalate by heading back to his truck.
The evidence is in part Zimmerman's testimony, but my impression is that there are eyewitnesses who testified to the same effect.
If Zimmerman is on the ground taking a beating, it become impractical for him to retreat and/or de-escalate.
-- This fight, which escalated to deadly force because Zimmerman was in reasonable fear of imminent bodily harm might have escalated BECAUSE Zimmerman was armed. --
I don't think hoodie-boy would have jumped Zimmerman, if he knew Zimmerman was armed.
zimmerman confronted the 6’2” 190# hoodie wearing man, then turned around to leave the scene. That is when he was attacked, FROM BEHIND, thrown to the ground, and with the 6’2” 190# man sitting on top of him, began to be assaulted, punched about the face and upper body, having his head slammed into the ground. As he lay there on the ground with the 6’2” 190# beating the shit out of him, he shot the attacker..... cut and dry self defence... and here is a little statistic for all of you, more people are beaten to death every year in the USofA than are shot to death..
To get to your question, Jim, I can speak to Florida's laws on this. I've had to use a firearm in self-defense twice in my life, and it was shortly after I turned 21. I was in college in Tallahassee, and this happened even before Stand Your Ground was law.
It removes the duty to retreat or de-escalate. It also allows any lawful gun owner to have their weapon with them in any place where they are legally allowed to be. So, for instance, they can have a pistol on their side in their home, on their property, in their vehicle, boat, etc. They can also have a firearm on them in a friend's home or vehicle, provided that owner is okay with it. Since you are required to carry concealed and Florida does not allow open carry (yet), you can't legally carry a firearm in a restaurant, grocery store, WalMart, etc. despite being legally permitted to be there.
Zimmerman was not on duty for the watch, but he was on a personal errand. From his home to his vehicle and on the road, he's legally allowed to have that firearm with him. As soon as he got out of that vehicle, he can't legally have his gun unless he has a CWP (did they mention yet if he's a holder?). This is where the story gets a little muddy. He went looking for Martin, but broke off the search. At some point back to his vehicle, he was attacked. At this point, Stand Your Ground permits him to defend himself regardless of the disposition of force. Florida law makes no accessions for equality of force.
Someone comes at you with a weapon, you only have to be in fear for your life to shoot. That's the key phrase, even I had to use it in my situation: "I was in fear for my life." Period, case over. Law enforcement cannot, under Florida law, arrest you for pulling the trigger. Maybe they come knocking on your door at a later date to follow up, but you walk away.
If Florida can’t convict him, I bet the Federales will step in to convict him of “Civil Rights Violations” a la Rodney King.
Whatever happened to those cops?
Zimmerman is probably NOT guilty of any crime, but the “powers what is” will sacrifice him to avoid riots. Won’t work though. Time for new TVs...
Its not a good time to be living in urban areas...
“Clearly, the “stand your ground” law eliminates a “duty to retreat”, which includes by implication a “duty to de-escalate”.”
Zimmerman’s Stand Your Ground protections were lost when he chose to get out of his car and pursue this person who was obviously trying to avoid Zimmerman. I hate what the race baiters are doing in this case but Zimmerman screwed up as a gun owner, screwed up as a CCW permit holder, and screwed up as Neighborhood Watch participant.