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I Tried to Open a Lemonade Stand
Townhall.com ^ | February 24, 2012 | John Stossel

Posted on 02/24/2012 3:55:19 AM PST by Kaslin

Want to open a business in America? It isn't easy.

In Midway, Ga., a 14-year-old girl and her 10-year-old sister sold lemonade from their front yard. Two police officers bought some. But the next day, different officers ordered them to close their stand.

Their father went to city hall to try to find out why. The clerk laughed and said she didn't know. Eventually, Police Chief Kelly Morningstar explained, "We were not aware of how the lemonade was made, who made the lemonade and of what the lemonade was made with."

Give me a break. If she doesn't know, so what? But kids trying their first experiment with entrepreneurship are being shut down all over America. Officials in Hazelwood, IllinoisIll., ordered little girls to stop selling Girl Scout cookies.

It made me want to try to jump through the legal hoops required to open a simple lemonade stand in New York City. Here's some of what one has to do:

-- Register as sole proprietor with the County Clerk's Office (must be done in person)

-- Apply to the IRS for an Employer Identification Number.

-- Complete 15-hr Food Protection Course!

-- After the course, register for an exam that takes 1 hour. You must score 70 percent to pass. (Sample question: "What toxins are associated with the puffer fish?") If you pass, allow three to five weeks for delivery of Food Protection Certificate.

-- Register for sales tax Certificate of Authority

-- Apply for a Temporary Food Service Establishment Permit. Must bring copies of the previous documents and completed forms to the Consumer Affairs Licensing Center.

Then, at least 21 days before opening your establishment, you must

arrange for an inspection with the Health Department's Bureau of Food Safety and Community Sanitation. It takes about three weeks to get your appointment. If you pass, you can set up a business once you:

-- Buy a portable fire extinguisher from a company certified by the New York Fire Department and set up a contract for waste disposal.

-- We couldn't finish the process. Had we been able to schedule our health inspection and open my stand legally, it would have taken us 65 days.

I sold lemonade anyway. I looked dumb hawking it with my giant fire extinguisher on the table.

Tourists told me they couldn't believe that I had to get "all those permits." A Pakistani man said: "That's crazy! You should move to Pakistan!"

But I don't want to move to Pakistan.

Politicians say, "We support entrepreneurs," but the bureaucrats make it hard. The Feds alone add 80,000 pages of new rules every year. Local governments add more. There are so many incomprehensible rules that even the bureaucrats can't tell you what's legal. In the name of public safety, politicians strangle opportunity.


TOPICS: Business/Economy; Culture/Society; Editorial; Government
KEYWORDS:

1 posted on 02/24/2012 3:55:23 AM PST by Kaslin
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To: Kaslin

It’s much easier to use sell weed down in da ‘hood.


2 posted on 02/24/2012 4:01:37 AM PST by RetroSexual
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To: Kaslin

I doubt the absurdity of this would even register with Police Chief Kelly Morningstar - just one of the many government thugs we have turned our liberty over to. The frog is boiling now. Too late to jump out I fear.


3 posted on 02/24/2012 4:02:05 AM PST by C. Edmund Wright
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To: Kaslin

The people who write these excessive rules and regulations need to be hanging from lamp posts.


4 posted on 02/24/2012 4:03:59 AM PST by mkjessup (Romney is to conservatism what e.coli is to an all-you-can-eat salad bar. NO ROMNEY!!!)
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To: Kaslin

BUMP


5 posted on 02/24/2012 4:04:38 AM PST by kitkat (Obama, rope and chains)
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To: C. Edmund Wright

John Stossel had a show about a year ago (it might have been less) on FOX News and he showed how red tape someone has to go through


6 posted on 02/24/2012 4:06:05 AM PST by Kaslin (Acronym for OBAMA: One Big Ass Mistake America)
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To: Kaslin
” In the name of public safety, politicians strangle opportunity. “

‘Public Safety’ is just a pretext - the tiniest of fig-leaves - for bureaucratic control over even the minutia of our lives....

7 posted on 02/24/2012 4:08:01 AM PST by Uncle Ike (Rope is cheap, and there are lots of trees...)
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To: mkjessup

” The people who write these excessive rules and regulations need to be hanging from lamp posts. “

You’d have to get a permit for that, of course...


8 posted on 02/24/2012 4:09:19 AM PST by Uncle Ike (Rope is cheap, and there are lots of trees...)
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To: Kaslin

These young girls had acquired more business experience than O’Boner by opening this lemonade stand. This will not be tolerated!


9 posted on 02/24/2012 4:15:21 AM PST by fishnuts2 (Liberals are anything but.)
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To: Kaslin

Think this is bad?

Hahahahahahahaaa!

Four more years of Obama’s Marxist rule, and you’ll need to fill out four assorted government forms in triplicate and get three different permits just to take a dump.

Don’t even DREAM about opening a new business, while operating an existing business will be a sweat-soaked nightmare.

And six years from now, he’ll STILL be blaming it on Bush.


10 posted on 02/24/2012 4:20:44 AM PST by Jack Hammer
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To: Kaslin; Clintonfatigued; GOPsterinMA; AuH2ORepublican; BillyBoy; fieldmarshaldj; sickoflibs; ...

Sadly the fuzz closing down a little kids lemonade stand has now happened countless times in recent years.

In the past they’d buy a cup.


11 posted on 02/24/2012 4:25:04 AM PST by Impy (Don't call me red.)
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To: Kaslin

Does this clerk know how Pepsi is made? What is in Pepsi, the conditions of the factories that make the syrup, the quality of the ingredients in the syrup?

Yet, surpringly - vending machines can sell Pepsi/Coke products without any hassles from City Hall.


12 posted on 02/24/2012 4:37:29 AM PST by Hodar ( Who needs laws; when this FEELS so right?)
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To: Impy

It makes me wonder what kind of rigamorale you’d have to go through wanting to mow the neighborhood’s lawns for a few bucks, like I did when I was kid.

Health & Safety training course, insurance, possibly a business license, etc., etc.

I wouldn’t want to move to Pakistan either(nothing against Pakistanis; I’ve known a few here in Europe, and generally they’re very nice folks), but the Pakistani Mr. Stossel spoke to may have had a point regarding excessive red-tape. That made me chuckle.

When it would be easier for you to operate a lemonade stand in Lahore or Islamabad than anywhere in America, regulation has gone too damn far.


13 posted on 02/24/2012 4:38:14 AM PST by AnAmericanAbroad (It's all bread and circuses for the future prey of the Morlocks.)
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To: Kaslin

Even so, some Freepers believe we’ve lost jobs to China because our import tariffs are not high enough.


14 posted on 02/24/2012 4:38:46 AM PST by ALPAPilot
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To: Kaslin

Even so, some Freepers believe we’ve lost jobs to China because our import tariffs are not high enough.


15 posted on 02/24/2012 4:39:40 AM PST by ALPAPilot
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To: Impy
"Police Chief Kelly Morningstar explained, "We were not aware of how the lemonade was made, who made the lemonade and of what the lemonade was made with."

Milk, milk, lemonade. The other side is where fudge is made.

16 posted on 02/24/2012 4:39:39 AM PST by fieldmarshaldj
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To: Impy
In the past they’d buy a cup.

That is the point. Many restaurants give the police free coffee, donuts or whatever. These kids expect to be paid.

17 posted on 02/24/2012 4:41:48 AM PST by Texas Fossil (Government, even in its best state is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one)
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To: AnAmericanAbroad
I will note, as FReepers read this account, I encourage you to think very clearly about the regulations that have been put in place the last 3 years.

If and when the collapse comes you won't be able to start a business or subsistence business.

You won't be able to sell your homegrown vegetables...recall they passed a law for that protecting us from the ‘organics’ of home farming.

Your wife cannot bake bread to sell without a Air Permit, as the offgasing of baking bread is pollution.

Any of these items will require permits from all levels of government and the accompanying insurance requirements.

Folks, there is not a thing we can do that is not regulated for tax or government revenue.

I've said it before here in FR, I'll share the story again...a liberal friend asked me at Christmas time what my biggest business expense was for my new small venture. I told her the government taxes, fee's, permits at all levels of government. I can't even hang door-hanger advertisements without paying $150-$300 fee per city I work in.

18 posted on 02/24/2012 4:54:51 AM PST by EBH (God Humbles Nations, Leaders, and Peoples before He uses them for His Purpose)
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To: Kaslin
Big difference from when me and my little friends tried to open a lemon aid stand in the Bronx NY, back in the mid 50’s. We had to shut down the same day, the older kids, 13 and 14, wanted a cut for protection. Go figure!
19 posted on 02/24/2012 5:00:46 AM PST by duckman (Go Newt...)
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To: duckman
Big difference from when me and my little friends tried to open a lemon aid stand in the Bronx NY,

Sorry but this is bad grammar. It should be: Big difference from when my little friends and I tried to open a lemonade stand in the Bronx, NY

20 posted on 02/24/2012 5:17:54 AM PST by Kaslin (Acronym for OBAMA: One Big Ass Mistake America)
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To: Kaslin
You are correct, thanks for the tutorial. Next time I will try not to use any dangling modifiers or end any sentences with a preposition. /sarc
21 posted on 02/24/2012 5:25:20 AM PST by duckman (Go Newt...)
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To: Kaslin

Stossel is a modern day Diogenes.


22 posted on 02/24/2012 5:37:04 AM PST by Dead Corpse (Steampunk- Yesterday's Tomorrow, Today)
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To: duckman
Next time I will try not to use any dangling modifiers or end any sentences with a preposition. /sarc

Uh...yeah, right. </sarcasm>:^)

23 posted on 02/24/2012 5:42:58 AM PST by Diamond (He has erected a multitude of new offices, and sent hither swarms of officers to harass our people,)
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To: mkjessup
The people who write these excessive rules and regulations need to be hanging from lamp posts.

They'd probably want you to get a permit, approval of your suspension equipment from the city engineer, make sure your OSHA courses were up to date (especially fall protection), etc.,...etc,...etc.

24 posted on 02/24/2012 5:43:20 AM PST by Smokin' Joe (How often God must weep at humans' folly. Stand fast. God knows what He is doing)
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To: RetroSexual

I know illegals who sell dog hearts in Ga during St Patty’s day and who tell everyone it’s beef, and they get away with it... but you see, they’re illegals.


25 posted on 02/24/2012 5:56:11 AM PST by JudgemAll (Democrats Fed. job-security Whorocracy & hate:hypocrites must be gay like us or be tested/crucified)
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To: Kaslin
I had my daughters put up their stand on the sidewalk right next to the main north south drag through out town, about two blocks from our house and always jammed at rush hour due to the narrowing of the street through the "quaint and historic" downtown. Their sign read: "Free Lemonade (Donations Accepted)". They were never bothered by local LEO and ended up "giving away" cups of lemonade for about $2.75 apiece. Some people just thanked them and drove on without paying but most threw in $3.00 a shot, or more.

Location and marketing, my friend, location and marketing.

26 posted on 02/24/2012 6:04:09 AM PST by katana (Just my opinions)
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To: Kaslin

Insanity!

Meanwhile these same people would hand the same kids condoms and say they are mature enough for sex.

Insanity


27 posted on 02/24/2012 6:05:37 AM PST by GeronL (The Right to Life came before the Right to Pursue Happiness)
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To: ALPAPilot
Even so, some Freepers believe we’ve lost jobs to China because our import tariffs are not high enough.

Hmm ... Could be because they have read Adam Smith's Wealth of Nations where Smith who stated Tariffs are acceptable when a nation to whom one exports, imposes a tariff on one’s exports."

"Revenge, in this case, naturally dictates retaliation, and that we should impose the like duties and prohibitions upon the importation of some or all of their manufactures into ours. Nations, accordingly, seldom fail to retaliate in this manner ... "

China Celebrates Outwitting Us

Also could be because they are aware that no elimination of regulation will make even the most productive Americans competitive with neo-slaves making $ .32 per hour [after deduction for room and board], i.e. unless American standard of living declines to third world status.
28 posted on 02/24/2012 6:09:17 AM PST by khelus
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To: Uncle Ike

“” The people who write these excessive rules and regulations need to be hanging from lamp posts. “

You’d have to get a permit for that, of course...”

And a study to determine if the lamp posts can handle the weight.
And a silk scarf so that the skin is not abraded by the rope.


29 posted on 02/24/2012 7:54:09 AM PST by W. W. SMITH (Obama is Romney lite)
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To: W. W. SMITH

“And a study to determine if the lamp posts can handle the weight.”

But first, those doing the study would have to be certified as Engineers having the proper educational accreditation for the state and township in question. And of course, the certifiers would have to be certified. You just can’t act like a bunch of drunk cowboys and launch into these things willy-nilly; there are procedures, you know.


30 posted on 02/24/2012 8:57:16 AM PST by TexasRepublic (Socialism is the gospel of envy and the religion of thieves)
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To: RetroSexual

>>>>It’s much easier to use sell weed down in da ‘hood.<<<

As Milton Friedman would say, capitalism is the natural economy of human beings. People want weed; people therefore grow weed and sell weed. The reason it’s easier to sell is that the regulations are far less stringent - except for that ultimate sanction of making it illegal. However, there are no regulators and bureaucrats between the buyer and seller.

I’ve been reading “Free To Choose” and “The Road to Serfdom,” and it is sad to consider how far we’ve fallen.


31 posted on 02/24/2012 12:53:08 PM PST by redpoll
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To: Impy; bamahead; traviskicks; little jeremiah

This is amazing. They won’t protect the border but they’ll shut down a lemonade stand.


32 posted on 02/24/2012 2:55:47 PM PST by Clintonfatigued (A chameleon belongs in a pet store, not the White House)
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To: khelus
Could be because they have read Adam Smith's Wealth of Nations where Smith who stated Tariffs are acceptable

Is that the same Chapter that he writes:

BY restraining, either by high duties, or by absolute prohibitions, the importation of such goods from foreign countries as can be produced at home, the monopoly of the home market is more or less secured to the domestic industry employed in producing them. . . .

To give the monopoly of the home-market to the produce of domestic industry, in any particular art or manufacture, is in some measure to direct private people in what manner they ought to employ their capitals, and must, in almost all cases, be either a useless or a hurtful regulation. If the produce of domestic can be brought there as cheap as that of foreign industry, the regulation is evidently useless. If it cannot, it must generally be hurtful. It is the maxim of every prudent master of a family, never to attempt to make at home what it will cost him more to make than to buy. The taylor does not attempt to make his own shoes, but buys them of the shoemaker. The shoemaker does not attempt to make his own clothes, but employs a taylor. The farmer attempts to make neither the one nor the other, but employs those different artificers. All of them find it for their interest to employ their whole industry in a way in which they have some advantage over their neighbours, and to purchase with a part of its produce, or what is the same thing, with the price of a part of it, whatever else they have occasion for.

What is prudence in the conduct of every private family, can scarce be folly in that of a great kingdom. If a foreign country can supply us with a commodity cheaper than we ourselves can make it, better buy it of them with some part of the produce of our own industry, employed in a way in which we have some advantage. The general industry of the country, being always in proportion to the capital which employs it, will not thereby be diminished, no more than that of the above-mentioned artificers; but only left to find out the way in which it can be employed with the greatest advantage. It is certainly not employed to the greatest advantage, when it is thus directed towards an object which it can buy cheaper than it can make. The value of its annual produce is certainly more or less diminished, when it is thus turned away from producing commodities evidently of more value than the commodity which it is directed to produce. According to the supposition, that commodity could be purchased from foreign countries cheaper than it can be made at home. It could, therefore, have been purchased with a part only of the commodities, or, what is the same thing, with a part only of the price of the commodities, which the industry employed by an equal capital would have produced at home, had it been left to follow its natural course. The industry of the country, therefore, is thus turned away from a more, to a less advantageous employment, and the exchangeable value of its annual produce, instead of being increased, according to the intention of the lawgiver, must necessarily be diminished by every such regulation.

33 posted on 02/24/2012 5:01:59 PM PST by ALPAPilot
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To: Impy; AdmSmith; AnonymousConservative; Berosus; bigheadfred; Bockscar; ColdOne; ...

Thanks Impy.


34 posted on 02/24/2012 5:23:39 PM PST by SunkenCiv (FReep this FReepathon!)
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There are community standards to consider.

Charles Addams

35 posted on 02/24/2012 5:30:41 PM PST by SunkenCiv (FReep this FReepathon!)
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To: Kaslin

____ Agency , Bureau of ____, _____Policy Board, Centers For ___, Department of ____ ___ _____, ____ Services Administration, _____ ______, _______Service, U.S ____ ____, _____ Department, Office of _____, _____ Center, ______ Foundation, Dept. of ___ Dept. For ____etc., ,etc.,

As I’ve said before, bypassing the foundation of our country, speedy trial by a jury of 12. See The Declaration of Independence:

.....”has erected a multitude of new offices....

.....imposing taxes on us, without our consent....

.....For depriving us, in many cases, of the benefits of trial by jury....

.... and altering fundamentally the forms of our government....

.....”


36 posted on 02/24/2012 6:01:56 PM PST by Varsity Flight (Phony-Care is the Government Work-Camp: Arbeitsziehungslager)
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To: ALPAPilot
Did you read the link describing China's WTO "accession agreement" which "gave it status as a "nonmarket economy" and spelled out thousands of details about special preferences for China. China was allowed to impose higher tariffs than other countries, and ever since has protected its auto industry by a prohibitive tariff on imported cars. By contrast, South Korea's tariff on imported cars is 8 percent, and the European Union's is 10 percent."

Or:
"As every individual, therefore, endeavours as much as he can, both to employ his capital in the support of domestic industry, and so to direct that industry that its produce maybe of the greatest value; every individual necessarily labours to render the annual revenue of the society as great as he can. He generally, indeed, neither intends to promote the public interest, nor knows how much he is promoting it. By preferring the support of domestic to that of foreign industry, he intends only his own security; and by directing that industry in such a manner as its produce may be of the greatest value, he intends only his own gain; and he is in this, as in many other cases, led by an invisible hand to promote an end which was no part of his intention" Adam Smith

Or
Ricardo's admission that comparative advantage only works if capital and labor do not move offshore. Or:
"Experience, however, shews, that the fancied or real insecurity of capital, when not under the immediate control of its owner, together with the natural disinclination which every man has to quit the country of his birth and connexions, and intrust himself with all his habits fixed, to a strange government and new laws, check the emigration of capital. These feelings, which I should be sorry to see weakened, induce most men of property to be satisfied with a low rate of profits in their own country, rather than seek a more advantageous employment for their wealth in foreign nations." David Ricardo
37 posted on 02/24/2012 8:24:15 PM PST by khelus
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To: Hodar
Pepsi pays it's danegeld. Which is what it is all about.

Every wonder why they went after Microsoft tooth and nail and left other computer companies alone? Microsoft had a reputation of ignoring politics and politicians. They saw the error of their ways and now pay danegeld like good little serfs.

If these little girls had been willing to shell out for permits and grease a few palms they not only could have had their stand but the police would have prevented any of the neighbors from opening a competing business.

38 posted on 02/24/2012 8:44:17 PM PST by Harmless Teddy Bear (Would you sing if someone sucked YOU up the vacuum cleaner hose?)
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To: khelus
By preferring the support of domestic to that of foreign industry, he intends only his own security;

"Experience, however, shews, that the fancied or real insecurity of capital, when not under the immediate control of its owner, together with the natural disinclination which every man has to quit the country of his birth and connexions, and intrust himself with all his habits fixed, to a strange government and new laws, check the emigration of capital. These feelings, which I should be sorry to see weakened, induce most men of property to be satisfied with a low rate of profits in their own country, rather than seek a more advantageous employment for their wealth in foreign nations."

Both of your quotes buoy my argument. Adam Smith is giving the reasons that people naturally prefer domestic industry. The reason is less risk:

In the home-trade his capital is never so long out of his sight as it frequently is in the foreign trade of consumption. He can know better the character and situation of the person whom he trusts, and if he should happen to be deceived, he knows better the laws of the country from which he must seek redress.

Those things check the emigration of capital. All the regulations cited in the article are what push that capital overseas; when government creates those stumbling blocks, what choice to people have. It is the reduction of the bureaucracy, not the imposition of high tariffs that is the solution. Adam Smith makes that quite clear in the section I quoted. Those tariffs are either neutral or harmful.

It's rather like the old medical procedure of bleeding. Just when an illness strikes the Doctor is there to make matters worse.

39 posted on 02/24/2012 8:46:05 PM PST by ALPAPilot
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To: ALPAPilot

Right. The operation was a complete success. But the patient DIED.


40 posted on 02/24/2012 10:45:15 PM PST by bigheadfred
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To: ALPAPilot; bigheadfred
You continue to siddle by some salient points and miss the big picture.

Corporate leaders now define themselves as citizens of the world, not of the US. They chase maximum short term profits, using the cheapest labor in conditions that lack even minimal standards regarding safety, working conditions, or passing on the costs of production through gross environmental destruction. As to risk, no problem just be 'too big to fail'.

Concentrating solely on regulation is a red herring. Corporations have no problem with regulation. They even offer their expertise and campaign contributions to both sides of the aisle to ensure that said regulations in the US squash any upcoming competition.

We currently live in a globalized market which has been rigged to the advantage of capital and management. Globalists happily traipse the globe in search of the world's cheapest labor and most lax regulation, combined with tariff free access back to the US market, to wit outsourcing to China.

To repeat, even in the absence of onerous regulation, there is no way in the world any American worker can compete with neo-slaves in China who makes $.32 / hour, i.e. unless America's standard of living devolves to that of the third world.

I notice you have neglected any comment upon China's special status as a "nonmarket economy" with special preference under the WTO administered 'Free Trade' agreements or why tariffs are okay for China but not the US. Adam Smith would agree the FReepers who would tariff goods manufactured in China.

Up until recently declining real income of the American worker under global labor arbitrage has been hidden by access to cheap credit. The hidden costs of what is termed 'Globalisation' include the growing number of Americans who are long term unemployed, who are dependent upon some part of the government's largess for survival, and whose income is plunging.
41 posted on 02/25/2012 4:23:02 AM PST by khelus
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To: Kaslin; duckman
Sorry but this is bad grammar. It should be: Big difference from when my little friends and I tried to open a lemonade stand in the Bronx, NY

What a dipsh**! You don't have anything to add to the discussion except to pick on someone's grammar? No wonder we are drowning in regulations in this country, jerks like you think the important things in life are correcting others in order to make yourself look good, or so you think. It actually makes you look like a dumba**.

42 posted on 02/25/2012 10:42:30 AM PST by calex59
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To: calex59

Thanks for the input. Back in the days with IBM, now retired, I was a Systems guy with some responsibility as a Tech writer. So when I had to be grammatically proficient, I put on that ‘face’. Didn’t think that was required on FR. DM


43 posted on 02/25/2012 11:27:30 AM PST by duckman (Go Newt...)
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To: khelus
Corporate leaders now define themselves as citizens of the world, not of the US. They chase maximum short term profits, using the cheapest labor in conditions that lack even minimal standards regarding safety, working conditions, or passing on the costs of production through gross environmental destruction.

Even by your arguments, that high tariffs would bring back jobs from China, this would leave the Chinese workers unemployed, and starving to death. Whether or not higher tariffs here would prevent gross environmental damage in China is questionable.

As to risk, no problem just be 'too big to fail'.

Corporations have no problem with regulation. They even offer their expertise and campaign contributions to both sides of the aisle to ensure that said regulations in the US squash any upcoming competition.

So you argue about how regulation and tax policy are harmful, or that the risk has been shifted to the U.S. taxpayer. Those are the type of regulations and incentives that push industry overseas, and I agree that it should be ended. As Milton Friedman said, one reason that he opposed big government was because they could be co-opted by big corporations to stifle competition. That is exactly what has happened.

To repeat, even in the absence of onerous regulation, there is no way in the world any American worker can compete with neo-slaves in China who makes $.32 / hour, i.e. unless America's standard of living devolves to that of the third world.

This is the specific point that Adam Smith argues against. Our wealth, or GDP is completely dependent on what we ourselves produce.

But the annual revenue of every society is always precisely equal to the exchangeable value of the whole annual produce of its industry, or rather is precisely the same thing with that exchangeable value. As every individual, therefore, endeavours as much as he can both employ his capital in the support of domestic industry, and so to direct that industry that its produce may be of the greatest value; every individual necessarily labours to render the annual revenue of the society as great as he can. He generally, indeed, neither intends to promote the public interest, nor knows how much he is promoting it.

The hidden costs of what is termed 'Globalisation' include the growing number of Americans who are long term unemployed, who are dependent upon some part of the government's largess for survival, and whose income is plunging.

We have high minimum wage rates, generous long term unemployment benefits, a porous border and easy welfare programs. We take profits from the industrious and give to the indolent. When the incentive is to prevent them from employing their capital (i.e. their labor), then of course the country will suffer.

It's not a zero sum game. Just because there is a rising standard of living in China, or they produce more stuff doesn't mean that we have to produce less. They are worse off because they have a much lower productivity rate there than we have here.

44 posted on 02/25/2012 12:44:49 PM PST by ALPAPilot
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To: ALPAPilot
... Even by your arguments, that high tariffs would bring back jobs from China, this would leave the Chinese workers unemployed, and starving to death. Whether or not higher tariffs here would prevent gross environmental damage in China is questionable. ...

Score one for the inroads of cultural marxism and redistribution of wealth! I was unaware that it was incumbent upon american workers to happily hand over their jobs and income so that Chinese workers don't starve.

... It's not a zero sum game. Just because there is a rising standard of living in China, or they produce more stuff doesn't mean that we have to produce less. ...

While it need not be a zero sum game, it's set up as one.

To repeat, even in the absence of onerous regulation, there is no way in the world any American worker can compete with neo-slaves in China who makes $.32 / hour, i.e. unless America's standard of living devolves to that of the third world.

You continue to siddle by Chinese trade practices which include under special WTO rules as regards tariffs and sundry other gimmicks to restrict imports.
45 posted on 02/26/2012 8:29:30 AM PST by khelus
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To: khelus
"Corporations have no problem with regulation."

True.

"To repeat, even in the absence of onerous regulation, there is no way in the world any American worker can compete with neo-slaves in China who makes $.32 / hour, i.e. unless America's standard of living devolves to that of the third world."

Double true.

46 posted on 02/26/2012 8:51:03 AM PST by moehoward
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To: khelus
You continue to siddle by Chinese trade practices which include under special WTO rules as regards tariffs and sundry other gimmicks to restrict imports.

Milton Friedman:

http://doc.cat-v.org/economics/milton_friedman/the_case_for_free_trade

A fourth argument, one that was made by Alexander Hamilton and continues to be repeated down to the present, is that free trade would be fine if all other countries practiced free trade but that, so long as they do not, the United States cannot afford to. This argument has no validity whatsoever, either in principle or in practice. Other countries that impose restrictions on international trade do hurt us. But they also hurt themselves. Aside from the three cases just considered, if we impose restrictions in turn, we simply add to the harm to ourselves and also harm them as well. Competition in masochism and sadism is hardly a prescription for sensible international economic policy! Far from leading to a reduction in restrictions by other countries, this kind of retaliatory action simply leads to further restrictions.

To repeat, even in the absence of onerous regulation, there is no way in the world any American worker can compete with neo-slaves in China who makes $.32 / hour, i.e. unless America's standard of living devolves to that of the third world.

To repeat, there wages are based on their productivity, our wages are based on our productivity.

China's GDP is around $7.3 Trillion or about $7,000 per person

The U.S. GDP is around $15 Trillion or about $50,000 per person

I was unaware that it was incumbent upon american workers to happily hand over their jobs and income so that Chinese workers don't starve.

I believe you were lamenting the lot of the chinese worker. I was just pointing out that tariffs would not help them.

Corporate leaders now define themselves as citizens of the world, not of the US. They chase maximum short term profits, using the cheapest labor in conditions that lack even minimal standards regarding safety, working conditions, or passing on the costs of production through gross environmental destruction.

Tariffs are harmful to us. Here is more Milton Friedman

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j0pl_FXt0eM

I've never heard these arguments successfully rebutted. I'll take the micro-economic argument over the macro-economic argument any day.

47 posted on 02/26/2012 11:59:28 AM PST by ALPAPilot
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To: ALPAPilot

You may have heard, but did not listen.

Freidman was a utopian cheerleader for ‘Globalism’ and ‘Free Trade’ whose essay on ‘The Case for Tree Trade’ is long on half-truths and obfuscation whilst short on facts.

Unfortunately Yuri was correct. /sigh


48 posted on 02/27/2012 12:30:15 PM PST by khelus
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To: khelus

I would enjoy reading any well reasoned arguments against Smith’s theories or Dr. Friedman’s interpretations of them. If you could point me in the right direction.


49 posted on 02/27/2012 1:32:05 PM PST by ALPAPilot
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