Posted on 02/20/2012 10:59:24 AM PST by tobyhill
There has been much chatter in recent days about the reinjection of religious matters into the presidential campaign, with a focus on the increasingly bitter debate over Catholics and contraception. But Rick Santorum has just opened up a new and dangerous front in the culture wars.
We are now being asked to debate which of the Christians running for president is really a Christian. I am referring here not to questions about Mitt Romney, whose Mormonism according to many evangelicals is not the right theological stuff, but to questions about President Barack Obama.
In the past, the strategy on the right was to intimate that Obama was a closet Muslim (he is not.) It was too crass even for our crassest politicians to come out and utter this falsehood, so, when asked about Obama’s faith, the strategy was to say, “If the president says he’s a Christian, he’s a Christian.”
(Excerpt) Read more at religion.blogs.cnn.com ...
Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. Romans 13:1
I think our founding fathers set up our constitution knowing what it was to be considered “subjects” in the old world. I believe Obama works for us, not the other way around. We can fire him. Yet, he now has authority and we should show respect; which is really really hard. That does not mean we can’t disagree with him and have debates on the issues & talk about what he has said, written, done....
There are many times when people stood up against the authority who was wrong. Daniel, all the disciples, Paul.....
——Truth be known, Santorum hasn’t the slightest idea what constitutes a Christian, since he has worshiped Ishtar/Mary all his own life.
St. Thomas and St. Augustine would be surprised to find out that they worshipped Ishtar and Mary.
No offense taken. I always enjoy a good laugh!
Yo, Prothero, here’s my take:
It is not deciding who is or isn’t a Christian to question someone’s Christian values. Many in that day will cry, “Lord, Lord...”
Twit.
Who is this Propspero guy to say Obummer isn't a closet Muslim? If it makes sense to say someone is a Christian because they say they are, then I have 3 Doctorates and 7 Masters degrees - who wants to hire me?
Thanks for your post #16. I agree.
Again, I object to that graphic.
Traditional Christians, be they Orthodox, Latin, Coptic, Armenian, or Assyrian face east when praying: along a line of latitude.
I do not suppose you mean to imply that Obama is one of us (and I trust all other Orthodox, Latin, Coptic, Armenian or Assyrian Christian FReepers would resent the implication if you did).
If you want to imply he is a Muslim, replace “east” with “Mecca”. Muslims never face the same direction as Christians, since the direction toward Mecca is always along a great circle, not a line of latitude (Mecca not being on the equator, the only line of latitude which is a great circle), and there are only a small region of the world in which the great circle toward Mecca is even approximately due east, and the United States is not in it.
Or better still, scrap that graphic.
The Roman Ishtar/Mary cult was founded in the 4th century, long after Augustine assumed room temperature.
They love to pretend that the early, real Christians had gone astray too, but history rebuts that foolish idea.
Who is Ishtar? I went to Catholic grade and high school and have never heard that name. I am now belong ot a Evangelical Free Church, but I really never heard of Istar. I am a Santorum supporter. He is not the typical Catholic if you listen to him. I also agree with him when he says the protestant church is in shambles. Look at the P churches who are ordaining gay ministers or saying abortion is ok. Ted Haggard, Joel Osteen who says mormons are Christian. The churches are in trouble.
Here is one of his comments:
This is not a political war at all. This is not a cultural war. This is a spiritual war. And the Father of Lies has his sights on what you would think the Father of Lies would have his sights on: a good, decent, powerful, influential country - the United States of America. If you were Satan, who would you attack in this day and age. There is no one else to go after other than the United States and that has been the case now for almost two hundred years, once America’s preeminence was sown by our great Founding Fathers.
He didn’t have much success in the early days. Our foundation was very strong, in fact, is very strong. But over time, that great, acidic quality of time corrodes even the strongest foundations. And Satan has done so by attacking the great institutions of America, using those great vices of pride, vanity, and sensuality as the root to attack all of the strong plants that has so deeply rooted in the American tradition.
Santorum describes how the “Father of Lies” attacked four pillars of American society-academia, culture, politics, and the church-to bring about the nation’s downfall. Decrying the lax sexual mores of American society and attributing that to the general decline of societal structures isn’t new for those of Santorum’s ilk, but his comments about Protestant churches are striking, especially considering his newfound base is comprised largely of Evangelical Christians. Santorum claims that Satan weaseled his way into universities to educate leaders who belonged to Protestant churches, churches that are no longer Christian:
And so what we saw this domino effect, once the colleges fell and those who were being education in our institutions, the next was the church. Now you’d say, ‘wait, the Catholic Church’? No. We all know that this country was founded on a Judeo-Christian ethic but the Judeo-Christian ethic was a Protestant Judeo-Christian ethic, sure the Catholics had some influence, but this was a Protestant country and the Protestant ethic, mainstream, mainline Protestantism, and of course we look at the shape of mainline Protestantism in this country and it is in shambles, it is gone from the world of Christianity as I see it. So they attacked mainline Protestantism, they attacked the Church, and what better way to go after smart people who also believe they’re pious to use both vanity and pride to also go after the Church.
Obama could clear this up by simply saying:
“I have come to this position as President in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ!”
Game over.........but, we all know he can’t say that with his own lips......a press release doesn’t count.
Real Christians pray without ceasing, and in whatever direction they may be pointing at the time.
Pagans pray in accordance with the traditions that they worship in place of Christ.
>> “Who is Ishtar?” <<
.
Ishtar (Isis, Semiramis, mother of god, queen of heaven, etc) is the false ‘goddess’ to whom people that worship ‘Mary’ are really praying.
I must object. While Obama's secularized gloss on the teachings of Christ is well outside the bounds of even a generously interpreted Christian understanding and Sen. Santorum is right to call him on it, and Jesus did indeed come to save our souls, He actually came to save us as whole persons. Christ said "I am the Resurrection", not "I am the transmigration of souls". He assumed our entire nature -- body, soul, mind, will and energies -- to redeem our entire nature -- body, soul, mind, will and energies. Our true self is our whole self. The idea that the soul bereft of the body is our true self is not Christian, but gnostic or neo-Platonic.
Just because Obama falls off the royal road on one side, do not fall off on the other in hastening away from his error.
What was that line from The Omen?
“I come to you in the name of the one that is descended from heaven.”
Ishtar: It’s not just a crappy movie!
Just the ‘RATS. Thanks for asking.
Ishtar: It’s not just a crappy movie!
Pleas allow me to add that I don’t know what BHO really believes. I only can make conclusions based on his actions, the policies he supports, the policy suggestions that he rejects, the people he associates with, those he invites to the White House frequently, those people he declines to meet with and those people he speaks against.
BHO advocates taking money from some citizens and “spreading the wealth around” as he famously was video taped saying to Joe the Plumber. That is overt coveting and theft. That is not a Christian value. But even many Catholic priests believe in doing the same in the name of “social justice.”
If Jesus would ask BHO the same question that he asked in the Parable of the Workers in the Vineyard in Matthew 20:15, we already know from his many speeches that BHO’s answer would be “no” while Our Lord’s answer would be yes:
“Is it not lawful for me to do what I want with my own?”
It is not for me to judge BHO. But what is evident about whatever “faith” he has is that it is more in harmony with socialist values than with Christian ones. And even a Christian should know that socialism is based on lies, coveting and theft. They should also know from the words of Our Savior in Revelation chapter 22 that no liar or thief has eternal life.
I see our bodies as something that can tie us to wanting to stay on this planet and not to be taken up by Jesus. I thin our souls go to Him first an then he resurrects us in body as well. But He will take us too Himself, no matter what, as long as we accept his saving sacrifice.
I made the distinction in relation to those who declare, where in seriousness or jest, I’m in no way able to determine or “to judge” which, that say they do not want to give of the physical pleasures of this life that they experience in these physical bodies. Thus I make the distinction, as a means to explain the need to give up the pleasures of this existence for that of being with Jesus and His Father. I hope this explains why I made my statement.
The Law, specifically the 10 commandments, are a mirror to show how we miss the mark.
We all miss the mark. But the left acts and believes in diametric opposition to all 10. Start from 10 and work backwards, taking the exact opposite of every one of them,
and you’ll see it pretty much lines up with the leftist worldview.
As a communicant of the Patriarchate of Antioch (where the disciples were first called Christians) I will claim dibs on the name of Christian. Let me suggest that your scorn of the doctrines of the Holy Ecumenical Councils and the practices established by the Apostles, and your lack of charity in accusing all traditional Christians, whether Orthodox, Latin, Coptic, Armenian or Assyrian of being “pagans” makes your own Christianity suspect. Most of us allow the name “Christian” even to those we regard to be heretics, but you arrogantly claim other Christians are “pagans” because we do not adhere to your own confession’s tradition (and yes, you have one).
If unceasing prayer is to be the standard, then I suppose only accomplished hesychasts are “Real Christians”. But even they face east when they pray the Hours, Vespers, Compline, and Orthros or offer the Divine Liturgy.
Excellent and accurate post.
This has to get out to the medias.
Excellent and accurate post.
This has to get out to the medias.
Be careful. Our bodies are, or should be, temples of the Holy Spirit, as the Apostle Paul tells us. It is ‘the flesh’, as the Apostles and Fathers used that word when not equating it with the body, meaning our passions, our bodily urges not transformed by grace, that tie us to this world, which is passing away, not our bodies per se. Which, of course, is what you intended as your reply points out. Still, there is too much gnosticism loose among Christians in these latter days, so one wants to be careful.
Scripture alone tells us who is and who isn’t a Christian, and what kind of character they should exhibit to show their Christianity. Obama’s liberation theology and Marxism is not Christianity. It is a way of playing on the ignorance of people who don’t understand their Christianity. It is a way of using government to plunder the property of others.
If Rick is bold he can simply quote the many racist things that Reverand Wright said in his church in the presence of Obama. Obama listened to this Anti American, racist, socialist bigot for 20 years.
Obama claims to not have heard these things. Rick could simply say if you sat there for 20 years and did not hear it, you are either too dumb to be president or you are a liar.
Following God’s word is hardly reducable to a ‘tradition.’
Who cares what dieection you face when following pagan, non-scriptural practices? East is as good as any, huh?
What happens when your idols (icons, statues) are not east of you?
>> “It’s not just a crappy movie!” <<
.
No, she’s also a crappy substitute for praying to the Father in the name of Jesus Christ.
I guess Stephen Prothero thinks he should decide. Santorum said he believes Obama when Obama says he is a Christian.
Actually I found this on the internet.
Ishtar
by Micha F. Lindemans
Ishtar was the ancient Sumero-Babylonian goddess of love and fertility. She is often described as the daughter of Anu, the god of the air. In most of the myths concerning her, she is described as an evil, heartless, women who destroyed her mates and lovers. Her greatest lover was the farm god Tammuz, who is similar to the Greek Adonis. After he died she went into the underworld to retrieve him but her efforts were vain and she returned to the living world alone.
Later, in the great epic of Gilgamesh, she tried to make Gilgamesh her husband, but he refused her and reminded her of her former lovers, whom she mercilessly killed or left injured. She reported this to her father, Anu, and he gave her the mystical bull of heaven to avenge herself. Gilgamesh and his friend Enkidu stopped and killed the mighty creature and threw its headless body at her feet. They also insulted her, and she responded by sending disease to kill Gilgamesh’s best friend Enkidu. She is one of Aphrodite’s counterparts.
Thank you.
“I come to you in the name of the one that is descended from heaven.”
Rev 12:7: And there was war in Heaven. Michael and his angels warring against the dragon. And the dragon and his angels warred,
Rev 12:8: but did not prevail. Nor was place found for them in Heaven any more.
Rev 12:9: And the great dragon was cast out, the old serpent called Devil, and Satan, who deceives the whole world. He was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
Some people think Satan was cast “Descended???” out of heaven at the beginning.
Job 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.
Job 1:7 And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.
Doesn’t sound like it to me. God Almighty doesn’t cast someone out then allows audience with himself.
Descended, yes indeed, a lie of pride.
The Lord shows Satan the door, with a footprint on Satan’s arse the size of the universe, and Satan quips...
“I come to you in the name of the one that is descended from heaven.”
Will this be an SNL comedy script soon?????
Rupert Murdoch also tweets that Rick Santorum's rise in polls shows "Values do count in America."
Where is the Bishop Spong of Muslims? That is, the Muslim who denies all that entails the Islamic religion...is there such a person?
Anyone who claims to be a Christain, and then says that Obama is one has some serious issues.
I don’t know. Apparently, liberals can decide who’s authentically black.
Actually, “following God’s word” always involves a tradition. The Scriptures are not self-interpreting. If they were, there would be no doctrinal differences among sects that embrace the notion of “sola scriptura”, yet there are. Even the principle of not expounding one part of Scripture in a manner repugnant to another is a tradition — one Christians generally adhere to, in contrast to the Muslim tradition of resolving apparent contradictions by having the later-written part of their scriptures abrogate the earlier-written part.
Deciding which parts of Scripture are to be read literally, and which metaphorically involves a tradition. I am curious, do you believe Jesus when He says “This is my body”, referring to the bread at the Last Supper? If so, why? Lots of folks whose Christianity is defined by the bounds of their reading of Scripture don’t. If not, why not? He says it quite plainly. Either way, what you do involves adhering to a tradition: if you believe Our Lord meant it and take that passage of Scripture literally, a tradition that goes back to the Apostles, if not and think it was a metaphor, then a tradition that in living succession dates back to Zwingli (though your apparent heroes the iconoclasts seem to have beaten him to it.)
Of course, perhaps you really don’t adhere to a tradition, perhaps you fancy that you, your Bible and whatever spirit is informing your interpretations are sufficient to uncover all truth, and you came to that conclusion all on your own, without anyone proposing the notion of “sola scriptura” to you, and without regard for how any other Christian to whom the promise that the Holy Spirit would lead them into all truth was equally given ever read the Scriptures before you. In which case I would ask, who elected you to be an infallible Pope?
Even your canon of Scripture is based on a tradition. I suspect one traceable to the erroneous preference of St. Jerome for the Masorete as preserved by the Christ-denying rabbis over the Septuagint, via Luther who had the arrogance to throw books out of the Church’s canon. (Or do you actually follow the Church and keep the whole Old Testament, rather than just the books the Christ-denying rabbis at Jamnia kept?)
Do you really think to persuade by abuse? Post an well-considered reply without specious accusations of paganism, and I will continue our dialog. Otherwise it is at an end, and in parting, I would note that Jews regard all of us Christians to be pagans for considering the Man Jesus to be God, and suggest that you consider whether your horror of “paganism” might not be a Judaizing heresy applied not to food and circumcision as that which roiled the Church in Apostolic times, but to other matters.
Problem is that lefties think the government is the provider of all fruits, even though they shouldn’t be in the business!
Thanks for the analysis, but I was just quoting a Hollywood movie script in response to what someone else posted about what 0bama might say in a speech to tell us where his loyalties lie.
Neither Black Liberation Theology nor Islam is “Christian”...
IOW’s.....how funny the claim is.....but, I guess I deserved crickets. PS....prior to posting this I accomplished a "Spell" check and I had 2 L's in "hilarity", and when I checked the pull down menu for the correct spelling.....the very next choice was....."Hillary". You can't make this stuff up.
Obama is a Muslim wanabe or Wahabe.
As time goes on the evidence of this administration and Obama’s sympathies are adding up.
If it looks like a duck quacks like a duck.
The term Al-Takeyya means:
Within Islam there are certain provisions under which lying and deceiving is not simply tolerated, but actually encouraged.
http://pc540.blogspot.com/2005/06/does-islam-teach-that-its-ok-to-lie-in.html
“Let not the believers take for friends or helpers unbelievers rather than believers; if any do that, in nothing will there be help from Allah, except by way of prevention that ye may guard yourselves from them. But Allah cautions you to remember Himself for the final goal is to Allah.” - Quran - Surah 3:28
Obama’s sympathies for Islam mounts
“One of the prettiest sounds on earth” is the Muslim call to prayer at sunset.
Barack Hussein Obama as quoted by Nicholas D. Kristof in the New York Times - March 6, 2007
http://jewagainstobama.wordpress.com/2008/03/03/obama-muslim-call-to-prayer-one-of-the-prettiest-sounds-on-earth/
http://caosblog.com/archives/7373
• The FIRST thing Obama did as a newly elected Illinois State Senator was to attempt to declare a Muslim holiday. Obama sponsored Bill SR0110 in the 90th General Assembly to declare November 1, 1997 to be Islamic Community Center Day. It did not pass.
http://www.ilga.gov/legislation/legisnet90/summary/900SR0110.html
http://www.ilga.gov/legislation/legisnet90/srgroups/sr/900SR0110LV.html
• His biological father was a Muslim.
http://www.bing.com/reference/semhtml/?title=Barack_Obama%2C_Sr.&src=abop&qpvt=barack+obama+seniot&q=barack+obama+senior&fwd=1
• Because his biological father was a Muslim the Islam world thinks he is a Muslim.
http://voices.washingtonpost.com/behind-the-numbers/2010/08/obama_is_a_muslim_18_24_or.html?hpid=topnews
http://www.indonesiamatters.com/2952/barry-soetoro/
• His stepfather was a Muslim.
http://www.indonesiamatters.com/2952/barry-soetoro/
• As a child Barry was enrolled in school as a Muslim in Jakarta Indonesia. An Indonesian Madrasa.
• Barack Hussein Obama’s first and middle names are Arabic Muslim names.
Barack was the name for Mohammad’s horse. Husein, enough said.
http://www.deseretnews.com/article/700246419/Barack-Muhammads-horse.html
http://sanooaung.wordpress.com/2009/01/22/will-be-obama-with-us-muslims-as-the-meaning-of-his-name-in-persian-language/
• Obama recited the opening lines of the Muslim call to prayer, which includes a vow of fidelity to Islam, in flawless Arabic on a radio program. - Nikolos Kristoff, NYTs, 3-06-07 (***this one is a gottcha moment***)
http://www.familysecuritymatters.org/publications/id.3413/pub_detail.asp
http://canadafreepress.com/index.php/article/11679
• On that same program he said he thinks the call to prayer is “one of the prettiest sounds on earth.”
http://jewagainstobama.wordpress.com/2008/03/03/obama-muslim-call-to-prayer-one-of-the-prettiest-sounds-on-earth/
http://caosblog.com/archives/7373
• Obama belonged to Rev. Wright’s (a former Muslim) church for twenty years. Many congregants are Muslims.
http://infidelsarecool.com/2008/04/07/jeremiah-wright-former-muslim/
http://infidelsarecool.com/2008/03/20/rev-wright-got-his-masters-degree-in-islam-in-west-africa/
http://endtimes.yuku.com/forum/viewtopic/id/289
• Obama’s said that the U.S. is “one of the largest Muslim countries in the world.”
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/tobyharnden/9959057/Barack_Hussein_Obama_US_one_of_the_largest_Muslim_countries_in_the_world/
http://www.weeklystandard.com/weblogs/TWSFP/2009/06/obama_america_one_of_the_large_1.asp
• Obama holds Muslim celebrations in the WH but canceled the National Day of Prayer.
http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/1724544/obama_cancels_national_day_of_prayer.html?cat=9
http://www.exposeobama.com/
• President Obama’s religious adviser, Eboo Patel, once deemed the United States “the ideal place for the renewal of Islam.”
• Obama does not give gifts on Christmas.
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0708/12035.html
• Obama doesn’t celebrate his birthday.
http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/08/04/a-tough-birthday-for-obama/
• Obama falsely attributes Muslim participation in the founding of America.
http://www.familysecuritymatters.org/publications/id.7041/pub_detail.asp
• Obama required that the cross be covered when he gave a speech at Notre Dame.
http://blog.acton.org/archives/9843-notre-dame-georgetown-and-president-obama.html
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/05/11/opinion/main5006203.shtml
http://dougpowers.com/2009/04/17/obamas-jesus-coverup/
• Christian symbol covered up during Obama’s Georgetown speech
http://myfaithspace.ning.com/profiles/blogs/obama-covers-christ-and-cross
http://www.cnsnews.com/public/content/article.aspx?RsrcID=46667
• Obama’s first major speech in office was a “Muslim outreach” speech in Cairo Egypt.
http://www.whitehouse.gov/the_press_office/Remarks-by-the-President-at-Cairo-University-6-04-09/
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8083171.stm
• “The American President told me in confidence that he is a Muslim,” said Egyptian Foreign Minister Ahmed Aboul Gheit on Nile TV.
http://barenakedislam.wordpress.com/2010/06/12/bombshell-egyptian-foreign-minister-ahmed-aboul-gheit-says-on-egyptian-tv-%e2%80%9cthe-american-president-told-me-in-confidence-that-he-is-still-a-muslim-%e2%80%9d/
http://www.wnd.com/?pageId=166905
• Obama gave strong support to the Cordoba House community center and mosque to be built at the Ground Zero site of Sep. 11, 2001 at a dinner celebrating the day’s end of the first day of Ramadan at the WH.
http://www.aolnews.com/surge-desk/article/president-obama-supports-ground-zero-mosque/19593492?ncid=webmail
• Obama tasked NASA with a mission of “Muslim outreach.”
http://technology.newsplurk.com/2010/07/nasa-and-islam.html
• Obama referred to his faith as “my Muslim faith” gaffe in an interview with George Stephanopolous.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iQqIpdBOg6I
• Pushes Islamic freedom of religion but not Jewish or Christian freedoms. Several weeks ago he told Israel NOT to build settlements in East Jerusalem. But OK to build that Mosque at Ground Zero.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/israel/7514285/Israel-spits-in-Obamas-eye-by-announcing-new-settlements-in-east-Jerusalem.html
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/mar/24/barack-obama-israel-settlement-plan
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