Posted on 10/31/2011 9:36:59 PM PDT by WilliamHouston
“On what planet do you have to be from to believe that Hitler’s 1941 invasion of Russia proves that he didn’t want to invade France & England?”
Well, let’s see: Hitler wrote an entire book about foreign policy, two books actually, about his dream of forming an alliance with Britain, which clearly showed that he had no desire whatsoever to fight a war in the West or against the British Empire, and wasn’t willing to go to war with France either over Alsace and Lorraine.
It was Britain that declared war on Germany. France was dragged into the war. It was all about maintaining an absurd system of alliances - Poland, Austria, Yugoslavia, and Czechoslovakia - which in theory were supposed to hold down the Germans, but which in reality only dragged Britain into another world war that caused it to lose its own empire.
“Winston Churchill did not become Prime Minister May 1940. Germany had already invaded at least 7 countries on the Western Front.”
The German invasion of Norway and Denmark was actually inspired by Britain’s plan - actually, Churchill’s plan - to occupy both countries to launch an attack against Germany. It was a disaster like Gallipolli.
Britain and France declared war on Germany. That’s why Germany overran the Netherlands and Belgium to bypass the stupid French defense perimeter. There was no preconceived German plan to attack those countries.
It was entirely the result of Britain declaring war on Germany.
“England had declared war on Germany, but had not taken any significant offensive action.”
Britain and France declared war on Germany, not the other way around. Why did they declare war? Because, Chamberlain had given the war guarantee to Poland, which Poland interpreted as a license to hold onto Danzig.
“There was no indication they would, if Germany had stayed status quo. Any British leader in history, would not allow Germany to control all of France.”
There never would have been a war between France and Germany if Britain hadn’t dragged France into the war. The French weren’t that enthusiastic about going to war over Poland.
“It’s basic geopolitics. Germany did not have to invade all of Western Europe to keep Danzig, Which they already controlled anyway.”
Germany invaded Western Europe - because, Britain and France declared war on Germany, as part of their genius of an alliance with Poland, to force Germany into a two front war.
There is no proof that Hitler had any desire to attack the West. On the contrary, there is mounds of evidence that his goal was to attack the Soviet Union, and that he was stunned when Britain went to war over Poland.
“There is not theory of war or geopolitics that says that was necessary. Also, they had a long-developed plan to invade France. Why did they need that, if they had not intention to invade France.”
How many times had France attacked Germany over the past two hundred years? It was France that attempted to dismember Germany after WW1.
“No, he’s not. It’s way more than a third. He should no, since he is one.”
I guess you take this as evidence of the great triumph for Catholicism that was the actual result of WW2?
“If we were back before the 1950s his books would be on the index of forbidden books because of their content.”
ROFL.
Where is this anti-Catholic content in his books? Show me.
Do you have any idea how dangerous the EPA is ? Do you have any idea how many thousands upon thousands of jobs that have been lost because of the EPA ?
You can’t be serious. You just can’t.
“How can you contradict yourself in one sentence. If Germany and Russia went to war then Poland will be annihilated anyway.”
How so?
The war would have been fought in the Soviet Union, not in Poland. There wouldn’t been any fighting in Germany, Poland, Hungary, Italy, or Croatia.
In your view, the best of all possible worlds was the death of millions of German and Polish Catholics, and the conquest of Hungary and Croatia by communists.
“In fact, you suggest the one circumstance that could have resulted in a worse outcome for Poland than what actually happened.”
That’s odd: the Germans and Russians fight each other to the death, Poland’s historical enemies, and the worst possible case for Poland?
Poland would have come out better off losing millions of its own people? Over Danzig ... a city that was destroyed in the war, which was 95 percent German?
That’s the dumbest thing I have ever heard.
“If the war had happened later and more gradually, Poland would have been even more screwed.”
That’s comforting to Poland I am sure - after losing its independence for half a century, losing the lives of millions of its Catholic and Jewish citizens, becoming a warzone for Nazis and Communists ... nickcarraway is confident that Poland would have been “even more screwed” if it had just sat out the war like Ireland, Sweden or Spain.
Here is where Buchanan's third grade logic and ignorance of history trip you up.
There are 2 things you have consistently said:
1. England's war guarantee of Poland is the source of all the trouble's in the world. 2.Winston Churchill is the war monger who caused all the problems in the world.
One slight problem. Winston Churchill had no power and was not Prime Minister when the war guarantee was given.
OOPS! Pat Buchanan is so ignorant of history, he can't even look up a small fact in the encyclopedia. You can try to spin this every way you want, but your two slogans just don't mesh. So, before you employ M.C. Escher logic again, why don't you sit and think, maybe Buchanan sold you a bill of goods. He has to twist the facts to get his theories to work.
The whole, "it's all about the war guarantee," thing reminds me of Al Gore debating. What was it with him, the lock box. You can't use one minor thing to distract everyone from all the major one's. It just won't work.
How do you know everything that would have happened, if something else didn’t happen? You don’t. If you have some kind of crystal ball, why aren’t you using it?
The battle ground would have been Poland.
“That one war guarantee FORCED Hitler to go on a rampage? Really?”
There wasn’t a rampage: instead, there was a war between Germany and Poland, one which could have been avoided, but which at worst was a regional war that could have stayed a regional war.
It was Britain that created the war between Germany and Poland and which transformed it into a world war.
“I’m not sure I agree they should have done it, but your idea that it outweighs everything is preposterous.”
No, what’s preposterous is your defense of a war and a maniac who destroyed the British Empire and who destroyed Poland and who destroyed Germany, and who arguably inflicted a mortal wound on our entire civilization.
And to think, it was all because a city that 95 percent German, which America acknowledged was German by refusing to ratify the Versailles Treaty. To think that it could have all been avoided if Poland had simply ceded that stupid city where only 5 percent of the population was Polish.
If a few incompetent warmongers in Britain had been thrown in prison, there wouldn’t have been a world war.
“How can a war guarantee be so terrible, but invading and bombing a countries that haven’t martially attacked you is so innocent.”
Germany never attacked Britain - it was Britain that declared war on Germany, and the decision was made because Neville Chamblerlain had given a war guarantee to Poland, a worthless war guarantee at that, which ensured the destruction of the country.
“In other posts you decry the U.S. military being deployed in recent circumstances.”
I think it is a laughable waste of our resources - deploying thousands of troops to Germany to protect Lithuania from Russia, while allowing Mexico to invade California and Arizona.
How does anyone rationalize that?
“But you think Germany’s invasion of Western Europe is nothing to be criticized.”
There never would have been an invasion of Western Europe if Britain and not declared war on Germany. In hindsight, we know that Germany had no plans to conquer Western Europe, much less Britain, still less America, an idea so preposterous that FDR should have been laughed out of office when he lied to the American people.
“How come you and Mr. Buchanan give, “special privileges,” to Nazi Germany that other countries don’t get?”
The best case scenario for Poland, Britain, America, France, the Netherlands, Denmark and Norway and all the other Western countries - that would have been staying out of the war like Ireland, Sweden, Switzerland and Spain somehow managed to do.
You are the one who thinks the most destructive war in the history of the world was a great idea. We think that it would have been wise to avoid the “Second World War” and the “Cold War” that followed it.
“What is the justification for this double standard?”
Why on earth should Britain have given a war guarantee to Poland ... a country where Britain had no real interests, where Britain couldn’t militarily come to the rescue even if it had wanted to, and which “guaranteed” (the only thing it managed to guarantee) the destruction of Poland?
Instead, why couldn’t Britain have simply tended to its own Empire? Why couldn’t France have tended to its own Empire? Why couldn’t America have stayed out of a stupid European thousands of miles from North America?
Why didn’t we just let Hitler and Stalin go to war?
Wow! Churchill used mind control to Make Hitler attack those two countries. And he wasn't even the leader of any country, unlike Hitler. Why don't you use the same mind control to make Obama do what you want?
“Do you have any idea how dangerous the EPA is ? Do you have any idea how many thousands upon thousands of jobs that have been lost because of the EPA ? You can’t be serious. You just can’t.”
I’m not worried about the EPA - the death of my civilization, my children growing up in a Third World country. That’s what concerns me.
So, you've come out of the closet? So you believe we can take everything Hitler said as true? Just so I get you to admit this: If I come up with a quote from Mein Kampf, you will attest that you believe it to be true? Please post that in reply to this post. I will go to the library tomorrow], and find some quotes. Then you can make a post that say's, "I WilliamHouston agree with XXXXX, because Hitler said it in Mein Kampf and I cited this book as a reliable source to NickCarraway.
“One slight problem. Winston Churchill had no power and was not Prime Minister when the war guarantee was given.”
One slight problem with that analysis ... I said that Chamberlain had extended the war guarantee to Poland, and he gave war guarantee to Poland largely to appease the war mongerers like Winston, who had criticized him and turned public opinion against him after Munich.
It was also Churchill’s debacle that resulted in the German invasion of Norway and Denmark.
“OOPS! Pat Buchanan is so ignorant of history, he can’t even look up a small fact in the encyclopedia.”
Laughs.
No, Buchanan is far smarter than you are and knows far more about the subject. Churchill was the leader of the warmongers in Britain and Chamberlain’s “get tough” policy was designed to appease them.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winston_Churchill
“In this job, he proved to be one of the highest-profile ministers during the so-called “Phoney War”, when the only noticeable action was at sea. Churchill advocated the pre-emptive occupation of the neutral Norwegian iron-ore port of Narvik and the iron mines in Kiruna, Sweden, early in the war. However, Chamberlain and the rest of the War Cabinet disagreed, and the operation was delayed until the successful German invasion of Norway.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winston_Churchill
“You can try to spin this every way you want, but your two slogans just don’t mesh. So, before you employ M.C. Escher logic again, why don’t you sit and think, maybe Buchanan sold you a bill of goods. He has to twist the facts to get his theories to work.”
The facts are that Neville Chamblerlain and Winston Churchill destroyed the British Empire, dragged America into the war, and “guaranteed” the destruction of Poland as well.
Barely. It lasted 5 weeks. If it was about Danzig, Hitler could have taken Danzig. (which he already controlled, and wasn't part of Poland)
“Wow! Churchill used mind control to Make Hitler attack those two countries. And he wasn’t even the leader of any country, unlike Hitler. Why don’t you use the same mind control to make Obama do what you want?”
Hmm.
Let’s take a peak at Martin Gilbert’s biography of Churchill. Because I seem to recall Germany invading Norway because Britain had violated Norway’s neutrality as part of Churchill’s scheme to cut off the Swedish iron ore fields:
“The Chiefs of Staff had set March 20 as the date for the Narvik landing and a military advance on the Swedish iron-ore fields. Churchill therefore went ahead with plans to mine Norwegian territorial waters as the preliminary to a landing ...
Confidently, on April 2 Chamberlain declared in a public speech that Hitler had ‘missed the bus’. But as Churchill had forecast in his letter to Halifax, the Germans also had a plan; it was to cast into jeopardy and confusion all that the War Cabinet had so belatedly agreed to do. Indeed, the nature and timing of the German plan were such that, at the very moment on April 8 that British naval forces were laying their mines in the fjord leading to Narvik, German military forces were being transported by sea to six points on the Norwegian coast, including Oslo. On the following morning a German force also landed at Narvik.”
“So, you’ve come out of the closet? So you believe we can take everything Hitler said as true?”
Hitler left behind voluminous writings about foreign policy and records that historians have poured over for years.
It is clear from his reading his own books that Hitler wanted an alliance with Britain and no desire whatsoever to go to war with the British Empire. He also believed in settling accounts with France by ceding Alsace and Lorraine.
There was never any grand plan to go to war with Poland or any of the Western countries. On the contrary, the war in the West came about because of Britain’s declaration of war on Germany - something that Hitler was stunned by and hadn’t anticipated - as he thought it was ludicrous that Britain would go to war over Danzig which was a German city.
“Just so I get you to admit this: If I come up with a quote from Mein Kampf, you will attest that you believe it to be true? Please post that in reply to this post. I will go to the library tomorrow], and find some quotes.”
Feel free to get yourself a copy of Mein Kampf and Hitler’s Zweites Buch. He talks in both books about forming an alliance with England against the Soviet Union.
There is nothing in there about world conquest or conquering the Western Hemisphere or the need to attack the British Empire.
Hitler’s worldview is plainly stated on so many occasions that his agenda is crystal clear: annex the German minorities that had been ceded to the surrounding countries, go to war with the Soviet Union.
The only reason there was a war in the West was because Britain and France went to war over Poland. If they hadn’t declared war on Germany, there never would have been a war in Western Europe or Southern Europe.
“Then you can make a post that say’s, “I WilliamHouston agree with XXXXX, because Hitler said it in Mein Kampf and I cited this book as a reliable source to NickCarraway.”
Are you denying that Hitler wanted to form an alliance with Britain?
How did Churchill telepathically make Hitler invade Norway and Denmark?
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