hard sciences yeah, the others? not so much...
Posted on 08/23/2011 5:38:51 PM PDT by Kaslin
You've undoubtedly heard the conventional wisdom: Going to college yields a high return on the investment, whatever its cost. Even if college is expensive, it will more than pay off in the end—or that's what everyone says.
The College Board claims, for example, that someone who graduates from college with a bachelor's degree can expect to earn about 66% more income over a 40-year working life than the typical high school graduate.
The Lumina Foundation goes so far as to say that higher education is a prerequisite to success in today's economy.
These estimates of high lifetime earnings levels make a common error: They assume that the current generation is going to get the same financial benefit from college that people did who graduated 40 years ago.
But things are different today. According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, nearly 70% of all high school graduates go on to college — compared with 45% in 1960.
Then, only the brightest and best-prepared students attended college and the schools offered academically rigorous courses that prepared students for the future.
Now even middling high-schoolers attend college — and often learn very little. Then they enter a job market where a bachelor's degree is relatively common — and must compete against many others for the same jobs.
A recent example of this exaggerated view of the value of higher education is "The Undereducated American," a paper by Anthony Carnevale and Stephen Rose of the Georgetown Center on Education and the Workforce.
(Excerpt) Read more at investors.com ...
Oh it was. Number 1 drunk school at least a year or two out of the four I was there. The reason it was so easy for me is that at least the first two years seemed like high school where you basically take the same class (although at a high level supposedly). Going to Catholic High School prepared me big time for the public school.....To be honest, I was ranked in the middle of my high school class but I feel that had I gone to a public high school, I could have been Valedictorian or at least close to it. I feel like public school is so easy and yes in some ways I am jealous.....lol.
Problem is the Public school system dumped:
Auto shop, wood shop, and metal shop....
Too many cuts to the education budget. You are going to see more and more cuts. Gym, cooking, business courses, etc are next. I don’t think it is the governments job to teach a kid to cook anyway or work on a car during school hours. If you want to learn that skill, then go to trade school after high school so we don’t have to pay for it.
Well a Cruise ship or American Idol!
Many actors don't have a college degree either. However, I would not want to risk not having a degree because those two unique individuals don't have one. That is playing with fire. Plus, I guarantee that they feel inadequate when talking with others who have a degree. Money is not everything you know.
lol. Tell (him or her) to go with American Idol.....could get really rich especially if they have a talent.....cruise ship is fun but will never be rich.
Actually a Cooking class enhances math and creativity skills...
I had a sewing class, which I really hated because it was using those old paper patterns, however I made a dress also my gym bag...
Loved cooking...down with sewing!
Acting is similar to professional athletics. Lots of people want to be in these fields, obviously, but not that much demand. Most actors end up working in menial jobs with occasional gigs that contribute 25% to their salary, unfortunately. I have a friend that is out there in Hollywood trying to make it. He’s a very talented actor, went to a top program, lots of leads in big productions, but the competition is so stiff. It’s not just the competition either — Hollywood has always been about who you know and what you look like. There’s nothing wrong with that, it’s their business, but yeah. I mean, when I was a kid, there was nothing I wanted to do more than play professional soccer. Didn’t exactly work out for me. :-)
Pet peeve of mine also. The Irving High Schools once had great programs that prepared students for actual jobs. They had a construction class that actually built a house every year and you can be sure it was a well made house. They were always able to sell it easily (don’t know where the money went, but maybe back into the program.
They also had auto repair shops that all the teachers took their cars to.
I don’t think they have any of that any more and it was the best thing they could have done. It really prepared kids who were not college material (whatever the heck that is) to get good paying jobs where there would always be work.
My son takes Auto, Metals, and could have taken Welding this year, but I wanted him to take another class. He will have four years of community college credit for Auto and three years of CC credit for Metals when he graduates.
Thankfully, the service academies have core curricula that would eliminate the Cretin-in-Chief. Mandatory courses include calculus , real (not lib crap) history, a foreign language, philosophy, composition, etc. Then...you can choose specific academic majors courses.
And, your children have the advantage that liberal slugs and Obama-like vermin don’t make it through...unless they’re the son of a flag officer. (McCain, you listenin?)
It depends on what the meaning of the word 'terminal' is.
("Terminal controlled flight into terrain" comes to mind.)
Cheers!
It depends on what the meaning of the word 'terminal' is.
("Terminal controlled flight into terrain" comes to mind.)
Cheers!
hard sciences yeah, the others? not so much...
If you don't plan ahead, a masters degree will net you $100K in debt, making you a wage slave for many years to come.
Well, it is a job with room and board included! If it was my son, however, who did this, he would want the cruise ship job because he would not want me reminding him of what an idiot he was every time I saw him.
Are the College Plus credits transferable anywhere?
Even to a community college?
BTW, predictors of success when looking at someone to hire in order of importance:
1. track record
2. References - (not the ones listed on the resume’ but their secretaries or co - workers.
3. Degree - (not Liberal Arts)
4. Management style and energy level
5. Grades - 4.0 don't hire - least important.
>>If you want to learn that skill, then go to trade school after high school so we don’t have to pay for it.<<
That’s a load.
What do you learn your last two years of high school if you are not going to college? Nothing.
Let these kids do vocational training for their last two years so they can walk out and get a job. Then they pay YOU back in tax money immediately instead of paying for the trade school after wasting two years learning crap they will never use fixing cars or cutting hair.
College elitists are as bad as any other elitists.
I would much rather pay for Auto Shop or Welding at the high school level than to continue to fund worthless college degrees.
This from someone who has a MBA. Yes, and I am aware that to most Freepers, I am a complete idiot because I have one of these degrees. But, I do laugh all the way to the bank while those of you who call me an idiot for having a MBA make yourselves feel better while doing so!
Depends on the major and the school. I can assure you I am seeing top notch engineering graduates out of the land grant and flagship colleges that we recruit from.
Good points. Not everyone needs to go to college. The restrictions should be high. The problem is that we’ve reduced the standards and also have an over-supply of colleges, many of which are just money-making machines churning out useless degrees
I wonder how many engineers today can use logarithmic tables!
In those communist societies, since you couldn't distinguish yourself by earnings, it was your educational abilities that counted (those who had money were most likely big party bosses and their families)
who told you that most students in Germany went into college? They have retained their high standards and % cut-off for students to enter colleges and only about 10 to 20% do enter college. The non-college educated, are, however, also trained in Technical schools or other career oriented schools, so they are still very skillful and knowledgeable of their trade
>>Pay for your own bills please. I am sick of paying for these kids to play with a car because they can’t handle Chemistry like the rest of us. <<
You are an elitist snob.
Not everyone is intelligent enough to handle chemistry. They are hard working kids who aren’t cut out for college. Idiots like you want to dump thousands for them to be housed in a high school setting, getting Cs and Ds in hover courses, wasting their time to keep them in high school until they are 18 instead of using the money (and last two years of high school) for vocational training.
Have a lesson from Mike Rowe.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3h_pp8CHEQ0
As for paying my own way, I paid for my OWN PhD. I now pay the property taxes for two kids to go to public school and educate them at home. To the tune of 14,000 a year and I want that money going to good use. Not warehousing kids to feed the Public school unions but to educate them. Educate them to get a job and pay taxes. It’s a whole lot better than pushing them to go into college and having them waste money there, feeding the elites that are ruining this country.
However, some people have tons of education and little common sense. You are an example. Yeah, skip the frivolous classes like Auto Mechanics and plumbing. Then who will be called when the toilet is blocked?
I think I’ll keep my principal position and BS. Thanks.
I agree that it seems that way to me too, but their entrance exams and standards of colleges are pretty high.
While in the 1960s only about 8-10 percent of Germany’s college-age students pursued university studies, now more than 30 percent go on to college.-- more independent work is good -- better for people to actually thinkThat has caused overcrowding and limitations on German university entrance, particularly in fields such as medicine and dentistry. A quota system known as Numerus Clausus means that competition is high; students must be at the top of their class if they want to study in a popular major. ...
Compared to American undergraduates, German university students are left much more on their own, can take a lot of time between required tests, and must do more independent work. This often leads to longer study times.
And idiots like you are prime reason we are broke. I am sick and tired of carrying people like you. You are a prime example of a welfare queen. Get out of my pocket. Every child has an opportunity to learn to read and study hard. If they can’t handle it then they have the option to figure it out on their own with their own funds. You want me to continue to raise my already 7,000 dollar property taxes a year due to your pity for kids who can’t hack the normal classes in school. No thank you. It has gone on long enough. There are perfectly good trade schools that these kids can take AFTER HIGH SCHOOL.
>>I am sick and tired of carrying people like you. You are a prime example of a welfare queen.<<
You must have missed the part where I paid for my own PhD.
>>You want me to continue to raise my already 7,000 dollar property taxes a year due to your pity for kids who can’t hack the normal classes in school. <<
No Brainiac, I want you to stop paying for 16 year olds, who don’t have the intelligence to go to college, to stay in high school, learning crap spewed by the NEA jailers, and use that same money to teach a trade. Your pocket has already been picked. It’s not going to be UNpicked.
What the crap do you think education is FOR? To baby-sit 16 to 18 year olds? Cause that’s what you’re doing now, with a fair amount of those kids.
No Elite-o, it’s to get kids prepared to be working members of our society. I can’t believe a homeschooling parent puts any credence in the warehousing of young adult who, for the same money, could be trained to go to work.
What? Do you own a Trade School? Or do you work at one?
The College Plus credits are in fact CLEP credits. So, yes, they are widely transferable. You can call to get the details. I expect that my 14 year-old will have a degree in about two years. Of course, that will just be our homeschool high school diploma.
>>Of course, that will just be our homeschool high school diploma.<<
So high school or Associate’s degree?
I would LOVE to do this if it’s an AA. Here in MI, our homeschoolers can start at 14 at our community college. They take classes and we clock their other hours so they hit 18 with a High School Diploma from homeschool AND an Associate’s Degree from the community college.
My daughters are two years ahead. The 13-year-old is going to the community college next year but is apprehensive.
I’m not disputing that there were quite a few Soviets getting useful degrees. I never disputed that. They also had a more intelligent populace, however. Communism was forced on them. Contrast that with America, where 53% of Americans that voted in the last presidential election chose to vote for socialism.
You can get a B.A., which is what I expect him to do. The beauty of CLEP is that it is far less time concuming than CC courses and COMPLETELY self-paced. Some children, however, need classroom structure. So, for some CC is the best choice.
Go to the website and find out about the program and give them a call. It costs nothing to ask questions, and it might be a good fit.
Those who had just managed to squeak through general chemistry with a C or C- were failing organic chemistry. This "promote them all" mentality, where schools promote unqualified kids to higher course levels, basically echoes the mentality in our public school system, where children that can barely read and write sometimes end up graduating. Of course, there are plenty of people that graduate from high school who can read and write, but for reasons like you mentioned, they simply don't have what it takes to succeed in college.
It does us no favors to have these people attend college. Many of them weren't even thinking about college, but were pressured by the powers that be to attend college because, well, that's just what kids do after high school these days.
See my #37, where I say this:
"Vocational trades are also an option. Some plumbers can make six figures, especially if they start their own business. These businesses have a higher chance of success. We've become such a society of elitists though, that we've taught people to look down on what were once considered respectable and honorable trades like being a plumber or an electrician. They are, in my opinion, but too many people look at them and say, "oh, I'm better than that". They then proceed to go to college and get their bachelor's degree in some useless discipline."
In closing, I'll just say this, however. I do think that there are plenty of people in this country that are probably not cut out for college. By no means are most or all of the ones that are not cut out for college, stupid, however. Colleges have dumbed down their courses significantly since the 1960s, and if people are willing to put in the work, even students of average intelligence will find that it is pretty easy to pull a 3.5 at a lot of different universities.
The end of the first sentence in my previous post should read “the need for vocational training in schools.”
Sorry for all of the posts, but lastly, let me just say that even though I’m a small-government guy, I have no qualms about taking federal loans for my medical education. If the federal government was not involved in subsidizing education, it would cost a fraction of what it does today, and I’ll be paying the loans back with interest, as a productive member of society.
Really? You think they somehow feel they should have stuck it out in college? According to comments made by both men, college was wasting their time.
Thanks for all the info. I will!
My niece went to a vocational school for cosmotology. She is doing very well. Right now she is earning a decent living.
I see kids sitting in High Schools who have to potential to learn a great trade, yet when they make it to the community college are lost and drop out.
Vocational schools rock! They are not for everyone nor is college but I’d rather pay my 7500 per kid (here in MI) to have a teen learn a trade than house them for two years and feed the NEA.
That is up to them. However, besides politics and computers what are they knowledgeable about. That is the problem. It is fine to be an expert on one thing but having a rounder outlook for MOST people is better. Plus two people out of 300 million making it without a degree is VERY RARE. More people are successes because of the degree. There is a minimum amount of people who are successful without a degree but the odds are DEFINITELY against them.
I think the stats that show higher lifetime earnings for college grads vs. non-college grads can be somewhat deceptive. People that attend college are generally more motivated than those who do not, so if they earn higher incomes, it might be due to their strong motivation rather than the fact that they have a degree. Yes, a college degree helps you access many positions that would otherwise be unavailable to you. Unless you have something else to contribute beyond the degree, however, your income will generally plateau pretty fast. There are a lot of kids graduating from college these days who don’t know much about anything. They’ve been trained to be followers, and they lack the ability to reason.
Higher ed ping!
Case in point: My husband has three college degrees (BS in Engineering Physics, MA in Aviation Management and an MDiv.) He has spent the last 15 years working in the IT field as a self taught programmer/developer and yet he has no CS degree and isn’t going to get one. My SIL just graduated with a BS in Computer Science and an MBA and can’t get a job. So who’s degree is worth what?
In the IT field, employers want experience over paper, that’s why my husband gets $90 an hour and my SIL can’t get hired, he has no real world computer experience, they don’t care how rounded he is if he can’t do the work.
Neither did the majority of the unwilling stars of "COPS!"
Did you have a point? :D
Out of what, thin air? He has no work experience short of harvesting cabbage and being a spanish linguist for the AF. Oh, and being a student.
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