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Amerithrax experts debate FBI findings, insist Ivins was innocent
The Frederick News-Post ^ | November 30, 2010 | Megan Eckstein

Posted on 11/30/2010 9:43:41 AM PST by EdLake

WASHINGTON -- The FBI may have closed its Amerithax case against Fort Detrick scientist Bruce Ivins nine months ago, but some experts are not willing to let the issue die quite so easily.

A group of about 25 scientists, professors, writers, terrorism experts and more convened Monday afternoon to discuss the particulars of the investigation and to debate who the real perpetrator may have been.

(Excerpt) Read more at fredericknewspost.com ...


TOPICS: Anthrax Scare; Breaking News; News/Current Events; War on Terror
KEYWORDS: amerithrax; anthrax; braking; bruceivins; conspiracies; fbi; ivins; terrorism
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To: Battle Axe; Quix; houeto; null and void; aragorn
When I was still inspecting, the Varroa mite and the tracheal mite were killing hives. Anything from China is a bad thing and they were importing a lot of honey back then.

Bio-collapse ping?


Frowning takes 68 muscles.
Smiling takes 6.
Pulling this trigger takes 2.
I'm lazy.

101 posted on 12/03/2010 8:30:55 PM PST by The Comedian (Government: Saving people from freedom since time immemorial.)
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To: Battle Axe
It does sound like a spider bite and/or bacterial infection, though I'm not a physician and it's tough with wounds varying so much and trying to describe them.

For example, there's this brown recluse bite:

You can find black widow bites that are similar, and even centipede bites that get infected.

And the other pic was bacterial infection, but not anthrax.

102 posted on 12/03/2010 8:38:50 PM PST by Gondring (Paul Revere would have been flamed as a naysayer troll and told to go back to Boston.)
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To: The Comedian

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

Reportedly it is the nicotine pesticide as well as a mite or some sort of virulent pest.

It’s a 1, 2 blow that’s doing them in . . . neither alone would do it.


103 posted on 12/03/2010 8:39:52 PM PST by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: Gondring

I need to know if the lesion was painful or not.

The first one was similar to what I saw but not exact.

Anthrax is not a painful lesion. Unless you get some sort of a secondary infection.

My classmate stated: It only hurts when I look at it. The physician gave her Clyndamycin. She survived.


104 posted on 12/03/2010 9:03:44 PM PST by Battle Axe (Repent, for the coming of the Lord is neigh.)
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To: Gondring
If you have a recipe you would use appropriate units: 2 cups of sugar....not 2 gillion grains of sugar.

She told me what they had used in grams. To me it was shocking to hear that many grams. If it were usual they should have re-figured it in kilograms or something else.

454 grams to the pound.

105 posted on 12/03/2010 9:09:34 PM PST by Battle Axe (Repent, for the coming of the Lord is neigh.)
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To: Gondring

I’m not sure this is a Brown Recluse. The ones I have seen were not new, pretty old, where the surface of the skin sloughs off, and much bigger, but on large areas of the body.


106 posted on 12/03/2010 9:12:15 PM PST by Battle Axe (Repent, for the coming of the Lord is neigh.)
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To: Battle Axe

Standard EPA reporting is often done on forms with standard units that are not converted, so they can be entered into database records that are consistent and so there aren’t conversion/unit errors.


107 posted on 12/03/2010 9:24:56 PM PST by Gondring (Paul Revere would have been flamed as a naysayer troll and told to go back to Boston.)
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To: Gondring

I’ll buy that. The thousands of grams just struck me as odd.


108 posted on 12/04/2010 4:04:19 AM PST by Battle Axe (Repent, for the coming of the Lord is neigh.)
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To: EdLake
That chart only shows BSL3 hours. It shows nothing about hours spent in BSL2, or total hours spent at work (which would include time in his office, time spent in the breakroom talking to his friends, etc.).

It also isn't really that much overtime. Even in September, the month with the most number of o/t hours spent in BSL3, that's only 1-2 hours per day. Or it could include a couple of weekend days. Those kinds of hours are nothing unusual for a scientist. Scientists do not have predictable 9-5 schedules; their work hours can vary widely depending on their project.

The other thing is that the o/t started in August, not September--which would mean that if he were, in fact, preparing anthrax, he would have had to know about 9/11 before it happened. Which I find rather hard to believe, because none of our intelligence agencies whose job it is to try to find out stuff like that knew, and Ivins was just an ordinary citizen.

Looking at PubMed, I see that Dr. Ivins published in Apr 2001, Sept 2001, and Jan 2002. Hmm. Just maybe, those BSL3 hours were spent generating data for those papers (all of which discussed an anthrax vaccine).

109 posted on 12/04/2010 6:55:05 AM PST by exDemMom (Now that I've finally accepted that I'm living a bad hair life, I'm more at peace with the world.)
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To: exDemMom
exDemMom wrote: "The other thing is that the o/t started in August, not September--which would mean that if he were, in fact, preparing anthrax, he would have had to know about 9/11 before it happened."

There's other evidence that indicates that Ivins was thinking about sending at least one letter containing anthrax through the mails prior to 9/11. For example, the date on the media letter seems to have been added later with a different pen.

And the "hidden message" he put in the letter is another indicator that he was working on the letter prior to 9/11. It doesn't seem likely he would have come up with that if he started after 9/11.

It appears that 9/11 turned an vague idea into an actual project.

It appears that you can rationalize anything that Ivins did and say it's just normal routine. But, that's the way circumstantial evidence works. You can rationalize this and you can rationalize that, but when you look at all the evidence together, it's clear that Ivins was the culprit.

He destroyed evidence; he tried to mislead the investigation; he had no alibi; he controlled flask RMR-1029, which was the "murder weapon"; he had a history of driving long distances to mail things so they wouldn't be traced back to him; he had all the necessary skills; he was observed throwing out the code books used for the "hidden message" in the media letters; he made non-denial denials several times, where he suggested that if he did it and just couldn't remember, he certainly didn't mean to harm anyone.

I could go on and on. And you can dream up ways each item could be "normal," but they wouldn't appear "normal" to a jury when all of the evidence is viewed together.

Ed at www.anthraxinvestigation.com

110 posted on 12/04/2010 7:44:14 AM PST by EdLake
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To: EdLake
“There's other evidence that indicates that Ivins was thinking about sending at least one letter containing anthrax through the mails prior to 9/11. For example, the date on the media letter seems to have been added later with a different pen.”

Yeah, no doubt written by a 6 year old.

111 posted on 12/04/2010 10:15:55 AM PST by Justice Department
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To: EdLake
“There's other evidence that indicates that Ivins was thinking about sending at least one letter containing anthrax through the mails prior to 9/11. For example, the date on the media letter seems to have been added later with a different pen.”

Yeah, no doubt written by a 6 year old.

112 posted on 12/04/2010 10:15:55 AM PST by Justice Department
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To: EdLake
when you look at all the evidence together, it's clear that Ivins was the culprit

You keep pointing at things that are perfectly normal for scientists, and reading all kinds of sinister motives into them. Furthermore, every single piece of "evidence" is completely circumstantial and/or coincidental. There is absolutely no "smoking gun" that would have tied him (or anyone else) to the anthrax letters. However, there are plenty of reasonable explanations for his activities, which I'm sure his lawyer would have made very good use of to plant that "reasonable doubt" in the jurors' heads had poor Ivins not been so stressed by the FBI's relentless hounding that he killed himself.

With the kind of evidence that supposedly damns Ivins, I'm surprised you haven't had an arrest warrant issued for exDemMom yet, because I am just as guilty of working odd hours, having periods of intense lab activity, and working with things that can kill people.

113 posted on 12/04/2010 2:31:00 PM PST by exDemMom (Now that I've finally accepted that I'm living a bad hair life, I'm more at peace with the world.)
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To: exDemMom; EdLake; Battle Axe

Having worked in a lab, I am in complete agreement with you.

Ed, who has never set foot in the lab, relies solely on Internet publications as “proof” of Ivin’s guilt.

Notice he has not responded to my “hearsay” post above.


114 posted on 12/04/2010 3:21:36 PM PST by Justice Department
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To: EdLake

Sorry Ed, I know you’re busy on your Sunday morning posting.


115 posted on 12/04/2010 4:41:59 PM PST by Justice Department
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To: The Comedian; Battle Axe

116 posted on 12/04/2010 4:45:00 PM PST by Justice Department
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To: Justice Department
Another one of our original posters on anthrax said it best: "We all have our own pet theory and we refuse to budge from it despite reasonable evidence to the contrary."

I started with this journey in my life about 2 seconds after I heard that ISU had destroyed their entire collection of anthrax.

I use this example of why this was so wrong and so telling of something.

Let's say that a person in a lime green Buick robs a bank at the drive through window. There are some sketchy witnesses but the Buick scraped the posts that protect the side of the bank. So we have a chemical analysis and they tell us that this lime green paint was left by a 1960 Buick. Obviously, the vehicle will show damage that will correspond to the side of the bank.

The authorities can access registration records and determine that there are 100 lime green Buicks in existence. They begin to track them down and determine that only 12 were in the vicinity of the bank at the time of the robbery.

But one owner, one day after the robbery, has taken his lime green Buick to the crusher and had it destroyed. Well it didn't run right and people made fun of it and it was costly to repair because of its age, etc. etc.

How guilty does this one owner look?

Same with ISU. Some of these samples cannot be found anywhere else. And what about the records of what was there, and who had access. Was all that destroyed too?

This is so obvious to me. I don't think I am making any leaps of faith here. The people who destroyed it were anthrax researchers, folks who well knew that the DNA sequence for anthrax had been analyzed in 1999. This was their job, they knew that some authority would ask for their samples and be able to tell one vial from the next. No one else destroyed their collections.

And I wondered why didn't they just get rid of the stuff that was missing? Well the obvious answer is, they didn't know what was taken or how much or who took it. So they had to destroy it all to CYA.

117 posted on 12/04/2010 7:38:39 PM PST by Battle Axe (Repent, for the coming of the Lord is neigh.)
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To: Justice Department
Thank you for the very bad news. Which beats no news, or false news.


Frowning takes 68 muscles.
Smiling takes 6.
Pulling this trigger takes 2.
I'm lazy.

118 posted on 12/04/2010 10:36:42 PM PST by The Comedian (Government: Saving people from freedom since time immemorial.)
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To: EdLake
We may be making a mistake in our time-line which accommodates the time anthrax needs to create a life threatening level of infection in an infected person, but so far I haven't thought of one ~ and it would seem neither have you.

So, first guy hit, is first guy to show up with anthrax, and so on.

The big problem for most has been the DELAY between that first case and the later cases ~ my "it's in the mail" thesis takes care of that quite rationally.

119 posted on 12/05/2010 6:43:05 AM PST by muawiyah (GIT OUT THE WAY ~ REPUBLICANS COMIN' THROUGH)
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To: EdLake; exDemMom
Barbara Hatch Rosenberg had more than ideological motives. She knew people on her side of the aisle who could have done this ~ and much of her insistence that the FBI investigate Hatfill was obviously based on that fact.

She imagined she could hassle the federal government enough to manipulate the investigation AWAY from her and her friends, and it turned out she was absolutely correct.

That doesn't mean her friends did the work ~ but her credentials were such the FBI and others were compelled to address her suspicions and speculations before those of others.

The peculiarly formatted addresses on the envelopes were written exactly as they appeared in a publication issued by an organization to which Ivin's wife belonged.

Postal Experts understood immediately how peculiar those addresses were and looked for them on the internet ~ and found them!

The atypical structure and content of the addresses is much more than a Koinkydink ~ and it can be dealt with two ways ~ that maybe Ivins did it (which the FBI would love to believe) or that maybe the conspiracy was a bit more widespread and sophisticated than we've imagined and someone decided Ivins could be blamed for it and measures were taken to make sure that happened.

A state agent would have taken action to cover its tracks. This latest item ~ that the FBI KNEW Ivins had ODd on Tylenol and didn't tell anyone else ~ suggests that sort of thing was still going on during the very time the FBI was telling us Dr. Ivins did the job.

If there was a state agent involved I think this runs us down to a couple of folks, one of whom is a Moslem at the FBI.

So, Ed, it ain't over 'til it's over! And it ain't over.

120 posted on 12/05/2010 7:08:00 AM PST by muawiyah (GIT OUT THE WAY ~ REPUBLICANS COMIN' THROUGH)
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To: Justice Department
Justice Department wrote: " Ed, who has never set foot in the lab, relies solely on Internet publications as “proof” of Ivin’s guilt."

I don't know what you mean by "Internet publications," but I don't relay on the media for ANYTHING regarding Ivins. I rely on FBI documents and discussions with scientists involved in the investigation - and on conversations with people who knew Ivins.

Before Ivins' suicide, I thought the anthrax mailer was a scientist in New Jersey. But, I always said (and I stated in my book) that the FBI might have a mountain of evidence pointing to someone else that I didn't know anything about. That turned out to be the case.

From the time I first heard of Ivins in August of 2008, I've been studying every document I can find about him and about the FBI's evidence. The media hasn't been of much help at all.

The statement by Ivins' therapist in the court document isn't "hearsay." It's not a rumor or something heard from some unknown person. It's a statement by a member of a group about what a leader of the group told her. I don't think that would qualify as "hearsay."

There appear to be a lot of documents from Ivins' psychiatrists that are still "under seal" due to doctor/patient confidentiality. They probably would have been used in court, since doctor/patient confidentiality doesn't apply when the patient threatens to kill people (as Ivins did). There are even indications from confidential sources I cannot identify that Ivins confessed to his psychiatrist that he was the anthrax mailer.

Yes, it took me a long time to respond to your post because I had to write a Sunday morning comment for my web site.

And now I've got to go back to other things before I'll find time to post here again.

Ed at www.anthraxinvestigation.com

121 posted on 12/05/2010 11:45:27 AM PST by EdLake
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To: EdLake

“Before Ivins’ suicide, I thought the anthrax mailer was a scientist in New Jersey”

And you were right!

(By the way, your “response and run” comments are ludicrous.)


122 posted on 12/05/2010 4:04:28 PM PST by Justice Department
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To: EdLake

“Before Ivins’ suicide, I thought the anthrax mailer was a scientist in New Jersey”

And you were right!

(By the way, your “response and run” comments are ludicrous.)


123 posted on 12/05/2010 4:04:28 PM PST by Justice Department
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To: muawiyah; EdLake

124 posted on 12/05/2010 4:17:58 PM PST by Justice Department
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To: muawiyah; EdLake

125 posted on 12/05/2010 4:17:58 PM PST by Justice Department
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To: EdLake
“It's a statement by a member of a group about what a leader of the group told her. I don't think that would qualify as “hearsay.”

Ed, hearsay is information gathered by one person from another concerning some event , condition, or thing of which the first person had no direct experience

“There are even indications from confidential sources I cannot identify that Ivins confessed to his psychiatrist that he was the anthrax mailer.”

That is utter nonsense!

126 posted on 12/05/2010 11:50:11 PM PST by Justice Department
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To: Justice Department
"Ed, hearsay is information gathered by one person from another concerning some event , condition, or thing of which the first person had no direct experience"

Like I said, it is NOT hearsay. The therapist who made the statement worked with the psychiatrist she cited and both treated Bruce Ivins. So, she had direct experience, and that means her statement was NOT hearsay.

Ed at www.anthraxinvestigation.com

127 posted on 12/06/2010 6:52:19 AM PST by EdLake
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To: exDemMom
exDemMom wrote: "There is absolutely no "smoking gun" that would have tied him (or anyone else) to the anthrax letters."

You'll probably rationalize and dream up some explanation for it, but there is a "smoking gun" that points to Ivins and no one else: the hidden message in the letters to Brokaw and the New York Post. Ivins was observed throwing away the code books used to encode the hidden message.

Plus, it's clear he tried to mislead the investigation on several occasions. I've recently been discussing the two occasions where he supplied improperly prepared slants to the FBI's repository (FBIR).

The first time he supplied the slants of material in flask RMR-1029, in February of 2002, he violated protocols and used homemade slants instead of Remel slants, he used the wrong media, and he violated chain of custody rules when turning the slants over to FBIR.

He was enraged when he was told that his homemade slants were not acceptable, and the slants were rejected.

Then, instead of being extra careful on supplying replacement slants in April of 2002, he provided FALSE samples that were the polar opposite of what was in flask RMR-1029. When questioned, he claimed he couldn't even remember who prepared the slants, how they were prepared, or if protocols were again violated by not getting a representative sample.

Ivins helped draw up the protocols that would be used, yet he claimed that he didn't know what the protocols were. He claimed everything was just a mistake.

Yes, scientists make mistakes. But these where clearly DELIBERATE actions by an experienced scientist who did not want to provide evidence to the FBI that could be used against him.

Ed at www.anthraxinvestigation.com

128 posted on 12/06/2010 10:30:33 AM PST by EdLake
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To: EdLake

Hearsay is a statement, other than one made by the declarant, while testifying at trial or a hearing offered in evidence to prove the truth of the matter asserted. See Federal Rule of Evidence 801(c). Put more simply, it is a statement being repeated by someone other than the person who actually made the statement which is used at trial or in a hearing to prove the truthfulness of the statement.

Courts will generally not allow hearsay statements or evidence to come into court.


129 posted on 12/06/2010 1:09:50 PM PST by Justice Department
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To: Justice Department
"it is a statement being repeated by someone other than the person who actually made the statement"

And that has nothing to do with what we're arguing about. The therapist and the psychiatrist work together on treating and counseling patients. No one is repeating something someone else said. A therapist is stating the diagnosis of the psychiatrist she worked for and with.

This is becoming a "Yes, it is" "No, it isn't" "Yes, it is" "No, it isn't" argument. It's pointless to continue. You're just going to continue to twist things to fit your beliefs. And, you'll undoubtedly claim I'm twisting things to fit my beliefs. So, why continue? I've got better things to do.

Ed at www.anthraxinvestigation.com

130 posted on 12/06/2010 1:32:06 PM PST by EdLake
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