Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

Mercury’s Magnetic Field is Young!
CMI ^ | Russell Humphreys, Ph.D.

Posted on 09/04/2009 8:50:36 AM PDT by GodGunsGuts

Once again, a NASA space probe is supporting the 6,000-year biblical age of the solar system...

(Excerpt) Read more at creation.com ...


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Miscellaneous; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: antiscienceevos; bigfool; bigfoolishdarwinists; creation; cultofdarwinexposed; evocultistsexposed; evoidiotsexposed; evolution; garbage; garbageisdarwinism; idiot; intelligentdesign; jerk; moron; nasa; science
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-5051-100101-150151-200 ... 801-813 next last
To: snowrip

How was that? :o)


51 posted on 09/04/2009 9:52:34 AM PDT by Tenacious 1 (Government For the People - an obviously concealed oxymoron)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 46 | View Replies]

To: reagan_fanatic

I used to think that also, back when I was a part-time Christian. Once I began earnestly challenging my faith and reading the word of God, I asked myself if the Bible is the infallible word of God or not? Do I accept that man is fallen and put my faith in Jesus, or put my faith in men that tell me what I should believe? Do I need to observe something to believe it to be real? I’ve never seen anyone walk on water, but I believe Jesus did it.

I believe that the Bible is the divinely inspired word of God. I believe all of it, not just the parts that I’m comfortable believing.


52 posted on 09/04/2009 9:53:35 AM PDT by Emo4SC (Disclaimer: All thoughts expressed here are not my own, but merely what I've been told by Talk Radio)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 18 | View Replies]

To: Pox
Its actually much worse than steering folks away from the GOP, its steering people away from Christianity and belief in God.

Fanatics that deny reality, are tools of the devil. They drive people away from faith. Satan loves them.

Think of all the kids with brains that can see the geological evidence with their very own eyes being told by a "religious personal" that what they see is false, that the Earth is only 6 thousand years old. Well, odds are, you will see a smart kid turning away from all parts of religion.

The young earthers are personally responsible for many many lost souls. They should be ashamed.

Oh, BTW, I was almost one of these lost souls... but then I realized that these folks were just tools or idiots and that their views do not reflect the majority of believers.

God and science are one. Science reveals God's creation (however he choose to do it... using evolution, laws of physics, big bang... whatever).
53 posted on 09/04/2009 9:53:52 AM PDT by StolarStorm
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 44 | View Replies]

To: faucetman

The problem I have is assuming that a day to God Almighty is the same as a day is to us.

Why would a creator, who created something as infinitely vast as the universe, base his day upon the rotation of a tiny little planet in some galaxy? Remember, the Bible was given to man thousands of years ago, and God using the term ‘day’ may have been his way of relating what happened in terms man could understand at the time.


54 posted on 09/04/2009 9:54:12 AM PDT by reagan_fanatic (Welcome to the Revolution.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 32 | View Replies]

To: Pox

Are you threatening me, ChickenPox?


55 posted on 09/04/2009 9:54:49 AM PDT by GodGunsGuts
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 49 | View Replies]

To: Pox
Talk trash to my face and see where that gets you pal.

You should have put a comma in front of pal. Like this, "Talk trash to my face and see where that gets you, pal."

56 posted on 09/04/2009 9:54:55 AM PDT by Tenacious 1 (Government For the People - an obviously concealed oxymoron)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 49 | View Replies]

To: Moonman62

Ridiculous post.


57 posted on 09/04/2009 9:56:10 AM PDT by FormerACLUmember (When the past no longer illuminates the future, the spirit walks in darkness.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 4 | View Replies]

To: GodGunsGuts
Are you threatening me, ChickenPox?

It's just Pox. Give him a wedgy.

58 posted on 09/04/2009 9:56:38 AM PDT by Tenacious 1 (Government For the People - an obviously concealed oxymoron)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 55 | View Replies]

To: All

It must be true because our telescopes can only see light that has been traveling for 6,000 years, beyond that our telescopes either see god’s flowing robes or empty space....

The Andromeda “Galaxy” is not 100 million light years away it is only 100 million miles away. And it is not a galaxy made of stars but one made of Tapioca pudding, which is different than the milky way which is made only of cow derived dairy products....


59 posted on 09/04/2009 9:56:52 AM PDT by GraceG
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: FormerACLUmember

Hmmm...perhaps it’s time for you to reevaluate the “former” in your screenname, as the ACLU very much agrees with you.


60 posted on 09/04/2009 10:00:16 AM PDT by GodGunsGuts
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 57 | View Replies]

To: Dallas59
The sun is a mass of red-hot metal and larger than the Peloponnesus.

See Diogenes Laertius, II.8 (Life of Anaxagoras)

61 posted on 09/04/2009 10:02:30 AM PDT by Verginius Rufus
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 5 | View Replies]

There is really only one logical reply to this thread.


62 posted on 09/04/2009 10:03:05 AM PDT by BJClinton (One Big Ass Mistake America)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: nuke rocketeer
Magnetic fields wax and wane, even on Earth as shown by rock evidence of fossil magnetic fields over millions of years.

Take off your blinders and use real science.

I got the rate of decrease by comparing my theory’s magnetic moment at creation with the 1975 value, and by using a 6,000 year age for the solar system, as the blue line in Figure 2 illustrates.

This is utterly laughable. The author invented a number based upon his own "theory" and then drew a straight line between a known datapoint and his theoretical datapoint and claims that the line proves something.

Seriously, I'm rolling on the floor here.

63 posted on 09/04/2009 10:03:09 AM PDT by The_Victor (If all I want is a warm feeling, I should just wet my pants.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 33 | View Replies]

To: Tenacious 1

==It’s just Pox. Give him a wedgy.

I have a feeling he has gotten many wedgies throughout his life.


64 posted on 09/04/2009 10:03:18 AM PDT by GodGunsGuts
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 58 | View Replies]

To: Tenacious 1

You’re probably correct. I try to keep up with punctuation rules, but nobody can remember everything. :)


65 posted on 09/04/2009 10:03:38 AM PDT by Pox
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 56 | View Replies]

To: GodGunsGuts
Hmm, I remember smart alecks who didn't know when to keep their condescending and puerile comments to themselves when I served in the U.S. Army back in the 80’s. Perhaps you could imagine for yourself how such a circumstance was dealt with?
66 posted on 09/04/2009 10:08:02 AM PDT by Pox
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 64 | View Replies]

To: GodGunsGuts

It was a variable, for the fraction of dipoles aligned at creation. That fed into the magnetic field of the planet at creation, and that fed into the equation to predict what it will be.

The problem is he gets to set that variable for fraction of dipoles aligned to be whatever he wants, so he gets to have whatever result he wants.

And all this assumes the exponential decay idea has any merit, and it’s not on firm ground either.


67 posted on 09/04/2009 10:12:00 AM PDT by antiRepublicrat
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 50 | View Replies]

To: Pistolshot

Humphreys thinks our magnetic field has flipped very quickly several times over the last 6,000 years using some pretty surreal logic.


68 posted on 09/04/2009 10:14:37 AM PDT by antiRepublicrat
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 23 | View Replies]

To: StolarStorm

>> Its actually much worse than steering folks away from the GOP, its steering people away from Christianity and belief in God.

Fanatics that deny reality, are tools of the devil. They drive people away from faith. Satan loves them.

Think of all the kids with brains that can see the geological evidence with their very own eyes being told by a “religious personal” that what they see is false, that the Earth is only 6 thousand years old. Well, odds are, you will see a smart kid turning away from all parts of religion.

The young earthers are personally responsible for many many lost souls. They should be ashamed.

Oh, BTW, I was almost one of these lost souls... but then I realized that these folks were just tools or idiots and that their views do not reflect the majority of believers.

God and science are one. Science reveals God’s creation (however he choose to do it... using evolution, laws of physics, big bang... whatever). <<

Couldn’t have said it any better myself.


69 posted on 09/04/2009 10:15:46 AM PDT by GraceG
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 53 | View Replies]

To: Toddsterpatriot
"Hello. My name is Inigo Montoya. You killed my father. Prepare to die. "

My favorite line *~* and also Kinetic energy is energy in use and certainly Inigo Montoya seemed at to display that......

70 posted on 09/04/2009 10:16:03 AM PDT by yoe (Obama, America's first Communist Czar)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 39 | View Replies]

To: Pox

I served in the USMC during the 1980s and 1990s. Get behind me, and keep your head down, Army-boy.

“I have just returned from visiting the MARINES at the front, and there is not a finer fighting organization in the world!”

GEN. DOUGLAS MACARTHUR, U.S. ARMY

“The safest place in Korea was right behind a platoon of MARINES. LORD, how they could fight!”

MAJ. GEN. FRANK LOWE, U.S. ARMY


71 posted on 09/04/2009 10:19:42 AM PDT by GodGunsGuts
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 66 | View Replies]

To: MrB
Which has changed over the years? “Science” (human understanding) or God’s Word?

Both.

72 posted on 09/04/2009 10:25:06 AM PDT by UCANSEE2 (Where's this tagline thing everyone keeps talking about?)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 34 | View Replies]

To: GodGunsGuts

....and yet my infantry unit would kick the hell out of the K-Bay jarheads on a regular basis.

(unbuckles belt and clangs metal pieces together)

What’s that sound?

It’s the dinner bell in the Marines.


73 posted on 09/04/2009 10:32:27 AM PDT by ElectricStrawberry (Didja know that Man walked with vegetarian T. rex within the last 4,351 years?)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 71 | View Replies]

To: ElectricStrawberry

In your dreams, berrypicker. If a Marine ever wants to go into the Army (God forbid!) they don’t have to go through Army bootcamp, but if one of one of your berrypicking Army comrades wants to become a Marine they have to go through Marine Corps bootcamp from scratch. That should tell you all you need to know about the difference between the Army and the USMC!


74 posted on 09/04/2009 10:39:14 AM PDT by GodGunsGuts
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 73 | View Replies]

To: stormer

But that Mercury is old !


75 posted on 09/04/2009 10:40:09 AM PDT by fieldmarshaldj (~"This is what happens when you find a stranger in the Alps !"~~)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 26 | View Replies]

To: GodGunsGuts
Then you should know better than to present yourself in such a manner. Why would you want to be categorized with the likes of Murtha (in respect being a Marine)? None of my friends who are Marines behave as you do on this forum, and that simply disappoints me, whether you care or not (and I'm assuming you do not).
76 posted on 09/04/2009 10:44:23 AM PDT by Pox
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 71 | View Replies]

To: StolarStorm
“The young earthers are personally responsible for many many lost souls.” [excerpt]
Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

—John 6:43,44

If I had not come and spoken unto them, they had not had sin: but now they have no cloke for their sin. —John 15:22

So, its the YECers fault if an Evolutionary minded person decides to place their faith in a billions of years old Earth, instead of God and His Word?

Ah yes, the whole Your driving people away from your cause! tactic so loved by the left.

“Oh, BTW, I was almost one of these lost souls... but then I realized that these folks were just tools or idiots and that their views do not reflect the majority of believers.” [excerpt]
Believing what the majority believes does not equate to salvation.

Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?
And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
—John 6:60,65,66

“God and science are one.” [excerpt]
You have either elevated a methodology created by man to the level of deity, or you demoted God to nothing more than a creation of man.

Needless to say, your statement is not scriptural.

77 posted on 09/04/2009 10:52:38 AM PDT by Fichori (Make a liberal cry.... Donate -> https://secure.freerepublic.com/donate/ <-)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 53 | View Replies]

To: The_Victor
LOL!

And the line ended up smack dab in the middle of the chart!

It's a miracle!

78 posted on 09/04/2009 10:54:20 AM PDT by Cold Heat
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 63 | View Replies]

To: Pox

Poor, poor, Army-boy. He tells this Marine to have his head examined, and then has a meltdown when this Marine tells him the only head that needs examining is the one he sees each day in the mirror. You would have been crying for your mommy on the very first day of a real bootcamp.


79 posted on 09/04/2009 10:57:46 AM PDT by GodGunsGuts
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 76 | View Replies]

To: Cold Heat
And the line ended up smack dab in the middle of the chart!

It's a miracle!

God musta told him where to place the axis.

80 posted on 09/04/2009 11:01:11 AM PDT by The_Victor (If all I want is a warm feeling, I should just wet my pants.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 78 | View Replies]

To: GodGunsGuts

Joshua Zorn, an evangelical missionary, makes an urgent appeal to “well-meaning Christians who share with me both a high regard for Scripture and evangelism,” beginning with his personal experience:

I became a Christian in 1973 at the age of thirteen when my Sunday school teacher took four lessons to explain the plan of salvation to us. ... This was the first time I had heard that the blood of Christ shed at the cross could wash away my sins. I immediately accepted this good news that salvation was by grace through faith and not by works. I began a new life in Christ which has now led me to work as a church planter in the former Soviet Union. ...

A few years after my conversion,... I became an enthusiastic devotee of young earth creation science (YECS) as promoted by the Institute for Creation Research. ... By the time I entered graduate school, I had discovered Christian geologist Davis Young’s book, Christianity and the Age of the Earth. ... As I read this book, I saw that the scientific arguments for a young earth were completely untenable. I found that all the other Christian graduate students had problems with YECS geological arguments. And so, although it was painful, I asked myself if I wanted to continue to believe in something that is quite plainly wrong. I decided I did not, and so rejected the young earth position.
But rejection of the young earth was not only a matter of science. It affected my faith and the core of my life. ... I went through a period of deep soul seeking, clinging to the Lord. .... Twelve years have gone by since I abandoned the young earth viewpoint. As I continued to study (toward a Ph.D. in mathematics with applications in population genetics), I unfortunately saw argument after argument of YECS crumble in the face of evidence, both new and old. The list is in the hundreds and goes far beyond the issue of the age of the earth.

I don’t expect pastors or church leaders to be impressed by all the scientific evidence unless there are also good hermeneutical reasons for abandoning the YECS position and a literal reading of the opening chapters of Genesis. As my prejudice wore off over the years, I began to discover a whole new world of evangelical interpretations as well as persuasive arguments against some aspects of the literalist reading of Genesis 1-3. ...

Do not fall into the trap of thinking the age of the earth is just a matter of “trusting God’s Word” versus “trusting science.” Christians need to, and every day do, trust both. The common error of rejecting many well-established results of science in favor of a certain biblical interpretation is not a valid Christian position. In the end, the truth will be a harmony which rejects neither the teachings of Scripture nor the well-established results of science. The results of science (properly interpreted) should never challenge the authority of Scripture, but they may cause us to reexamine our interpretation of Scripture. This is what I am pleading with young earthers to do.

The Christian position must be that all truth is God’s truth and that we have both general revelation (nature) and special revelation (the Bible) as sources of truth. ... Ultimately, our confidence in Scripture should not rest on having a complete harmony between science and the Bible because we simply do not know enough to complete the harmony. ...

[Young-earth teaching] creates a nearly insurmountable barrier between the educated world and the church. Certainly God in his sovereignty has allowed some to be persuaded to believe in Christ through the arguments of YECS. But how many more have not accepted the Gospel because of the unnecessary demand that converts believe that the world is no more than 10,000 years old? And how many have unnecessarily gone through a crisis of faith similar to that which I described above? How many have chosen to give up their faith altogether rather than to accept scientific nonsense or a major reinterpretation of Scripture? How much have we dishonored our Lord by slandering scientists and their reputation? How much have we sinned against Christian brothers holding another opinion by naming them “dangerous” and “compromisers”? How much responsibility do we bear for having taught others (James 3:1) things that probably are not even true? Each must search his own heart. ...

As I write this paper, I see YECS literature becoming more and more widely distributed in the growing churches in my corner of the former Soviet Union. We are sowing the seeds of a major crisis which will make the job of world evangelism even harder than it is already. Lord, give us wisdom!

http://www.asa3.org/ASA/education/origins/experiences.htm


81 posted on 09/04/2009 11:02:33 AM PDT by Ira_Louvin (Go tell them people lost in sin, They need not fear the works of men.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 27 | View Replies]

To: reagan_fanatic; faucetman
“The problem I have is assuming that a day to God Almighty is the same as a day is to us.” [excerpt]
God Almighty is outside of time and not subject to it.

A day is a human term.

“Why would a creator, who created something as infinitely vast as the universe, base his day upon the rotation of a tiny little planet in some galaxy?” [excerpt]
Because thats where the person He was talking to was located.

“Remember, the Bible was given to man thousands of years ago, and God using the term ‘day’ may have been his way of relating what happened in terms man could understand at the time.” [excerpt]
It is impossible for someone to misunderstand God.

Moses understood a day to mean a regular 24 hour day, and Christ spoke of Moses' writings as true.


82 posted on 09/04/2009 11:03:45 AM PDT by Fichori (Make a liberal cry.... Donate -> https://secure.freerepublic.com/donate/ <-)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 54 | View Replies]

To: GodGunsGuts

Please, continue....


83 posted on 09/04/2009 11:06:37 AM PDT by Pox
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 79 | View Replies]

To: UCANSEE2

God’s word has not changed.


84 posted on 09/04/2009 11:06:43 AM PDT by MrB (Go Galt now, save Bowman for later)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 72 | View Replies]

To: Fichori
It is impossible for someone to misunderstand God.

That doesn't make any sense. The argument here between Christians seems to be that the other side is misunderstanding God. YEC is necessary, YEC isn't necessary. One's right, the other is misunderstanding.

85 posted on 09/04/2009 11:12:26 AM PDT by antiRepublicrat
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 82 | View Replies]

To: MrB
God’s word has not changed.

But the interpretation of it has varied widely over the years.

86 posted on 09/04/2009 11:13:39 AM PDT by antiRepublicrat
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 84 | View Replies]

To: GodGunsGuts

At least when he got his wedgy his undies weren’t wrapped around his chin.


87 posted on 09/04/2009 11:15:44 AM PDT by stormer
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 64 | View Replies]

To: fieldmarshaldj

I know - I wish it was mine, too.


88 posted on 09/04/2009 11:17:24 AM PDT by stormer
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 75 | View Replies]

To: GodGunsGuts
I served in the USMC during the 1980s and 1990s.

And all along I thought you were 14.
89 posted on 09/04/2009 11:22:26 AM PDT by whattajoke (Let's keep Conservatism real.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 71 | View Replies]

To: antiRepublicrat
It is impossible for someone to misunderstand God.

Moses understood a day to mean a regular 24 hour day, and Christ spoke of Moses' writings as true.
“That doesn't make any sense.” [excerpt]
God told Moses that he (God) made everything is six days.

Moses understood those six days to be regular 24 hour days.

There is no difference between Moses misunderstanding an omnipotent, omnipresent, all knowing God (who didn't correct Moses' misunderstanding), and God lying.

Makes perfect sense.

“The argument here between Christians seems to be that the other side is misunderstanding God. YEC is necessary, YEC isn't necessary. One's right, the other is misunderstanding.” [excerpt]
The post to which you replied to does not address the age of the Earth. (Try to pay attention)
90 posted on 09/04/2009 11:23:12 AM PDT by Fichori (Make a liberal cry.... Donate -> https://secure.freerepublic.com/donate/ <-)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 85 | View Replies]

To: Fichori
It is impossible for someone to misunderstand God.

Nice platitude. Tell that to the 6 billion or so humans who don't "understand" him just as you do. What's wrong with them?
91 posted on 09/04/2009 11:25:11 AM PDT by whattajoke (Let's keep Conservatism real.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 82 | View Replies]

To: GodGunsGuts
Temple of Darwin

Now your arch nemesis Charles Darwin is to blame for the world's understanding of magnetic fields and solar system formation? Geeze, what didn't that guy corrupt?
92 posted on 09/04/2009 11:26:48 AM PDT by whattajoke (Let's keep Conservatism real.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 13 | View Replies]

To: whattajoke
I see you have also taken what I said out of context.

Say, didn't you tell all your friends that you were done with FR?

They must be very disappointed in you.
93 posted on 09/04/2009 11:27:44 AM PDT by Fichori (Make a liberal cry.... Donate -> https://secure.freerepublic.com/donate/ <-)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 91 | View Replies]

To: MrB
God’s word has not changed.

I agree.

However, our interpretation of it has, our 'recording' of it has, and our understanding of what 'he' meant is still incomplete.

94 posted on 09/04/2009 11:29:38 AM PDT by UCANSEE2 (Where's this tagline thing everyone keeps talking about?)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 84 | View Replies]

To: Fichori
Say, didn't you tell all your friends that you were done with FR?

I can't quit you.
95 posted on 09/04/2009 11:30:25 AM PDT by whattajoke (Let's keep Conservatism real.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 93 | View Replies]

To: Fichori
It is impossible for someone to misunderstand God.

Au contraire.

There are many who misunderstand God, the word of God, and what God is telling them.

96 posted on 09/04/2009 11:32:29 AM PDT by UCANSEE2 (Where's this tagline thing everyone keeps talking about?)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 90 | View Replies]

To: MrB

Does that also apply to Exodus 21: 17, and 20?


97 posted on 09/04/2009 11:33:57 AM PDT by Ira_Louvin (Go tell them people lost in sin, They need not fear the works of men.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 84 | View Replies]

To: Ira_Louvin

If you’re a Jew living under The Law, I suppose.
Jesus brought us a New Covenant. Cursing parents and harming others is still “illegal”, but the punishments are covered by Jesus’ blood.

Any other Biblical questions? Or are you just sniping and trying to pick holes where there are none?


98 posted on 09/04/2009 11:37:25 AM PDT by MrB (Go Galt now, save Bowman for later)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 97 | View Replies]

To: UCANSEE2
And yet another person who has taken what I said out of context.

No surprise there.
99 posted on 09/04/2009 11:39:43 AM PDT by Fichori (Make a liberal cry.... Donate -> https://secure.freerepublic.com/donate/ <-)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 96 | View Replies]

To: Fichori
Moses understood a day to mean a regular 24 hour day

So, back in Moses' time, a day was exactly 24 hours long?

Did Moses have a watch?

100 posted on 09/04/2009 11:41:05 AM PDT by UCANSEE2 (Where's this tagline thing everyone keeps talking about?)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 90 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-5051-100101-150151-200 ... 801-813 next last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson