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Who should MDs let die in a pandemic? Report offers answers
AP ^ | 05/04/08 | Lindsey Tanner

Posted on 04/26/2009 12:14:37 AM PDT by TornadoAlley3

CHICAGO – Doctors know some patients needing lifesaving care won't get it in a flu pandemic or other disaster. The gut-wrenching dilemma will be deciding who to let die. Now, an influential group of physicians has drafted a grimly specific list of recommendations for which patients wouldn't be treated. They include the very elderly, seriously hurt trauma victims, severely burned patients and those with severe dementia.

The suggested list was compiled by a task force whose members come from prestigious universities, medical groups, the military and government agencies. They include the Department of Homeland Security, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention and the Department of Health and Human Services.

The proposed guidelines are designed to be a blueprint for hospitals “so that everybody will be thinking in the same way” when pandemic flu or another widespread health care disaster hits, said Dr. Asha Devereaux. She is a critical care specialist in San Diego and lead writer of the task force report.

(Excerpt) Read more at rds.yahoo.com ...


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Front Page News; Government; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: bho44; bhocdc; bhodhs; blackhitler; deathpanels; die; epidemic; eugenics; genocide; holocaust; mds; moralabsolutes; nazism; obamacare; pandemic; psychiatry; swineflu; t4; triage; vitamind
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To: bushwon
Whatever happened to saving lives—as many as possible?

Triage is all about saving as many lives as possible, in a situation where there are not enough medical resources to go around.

In a grossly oversimplified example, lets say you have 20 units of "medical resource", and 5 patients.

Patients A, B, C, and D each need 5 units and will die if given less than 5. Patient E needs 20 units and will die if given less than 20. How do you allocate your 20 units of medical resources to maximize the number of surviving patients?

In the above example, saving the one who needs the most units of medical resources means that the other four will die, so you save the four who need the least.

101 posted on 04/26/2009 8:44:41 AM PDT by PapaBear3625 (The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money -- Thatcher)
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To: Marie
In a triage situation where one has to choose between a normal adult with a 10% chance and a disabled person with a 70% chance of surviving that particular crisis you choose the disabled person. You don't assign a value to each person, as a *person*, then decide if you're going to treat them or not.

They are also thinking about the economy, and assigning more value to the survival of workers who will help prop up the Democrat Welfare State. They are thinking about what happens if federal revenue drops too low due to too many taxpayers dying.

102 posted on 04/26/2009 8:49:47 AM PDT by PapaBear3625 (The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money -- Thatcher)
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To: TornadoAlley3
I ordinarily enjoy splendid health, and I don't want this treatment. I will die at some point anyway with or without it.

Give mine to someone that wants it, thanks.

103 posted on 04/26/2009 8:54:10 AM PDT by MaggieCarta (We're all Detroiters now.)
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To: devere

True only God decides if you live or die. But supportive care in an ICU can treat secondary infection and provide temporary mechanical ventilation while the lungs heal. This is life saving and life sustaining in cases of severe influenza. However, we do not have the resources to do this for everyone. In an overwhelming epidemic, unfortunately, decisions about who gets such care will have to be made. The current system of first come first serve may not be the best. All the ICU beds available will be full within the first hours to days of an epidemic, and the rest of us are out of luck.
Actually, making the list gets people thinking about rationing care, but the truth is there is so little reserve in the system in terms of ICU beds and ventilators, that the system would be quickly swamped, and only a very tiny percentage of the critically ill would receive care. I would bet that in a city the size of Denver on any given day during cold and flu season, there are probably not 10 extra ICU beds in the entire city. You see the scope of the problem.


104 posted on 04/26/2009 8:57:42 AM PDT by Mom MD (Jesus is the Light of the world!)
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Comment #105 Removed by Moderator

To: PapaBear3625

Unless your doc is a Freeper, too, and carries his own .45 on his hip...


106 posted on 04/26/2009 9:06:20 AM PDT by Clarence (back to lurking now...)
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To: Dr.Zoidberg
Of course the elites will be treated to a higher standard of care than us peons, that’s the way the system works, either you are in power or you are subjected to it.

Back in 1993, the 61 year old governor of Pennsylvania needed a heart and liver transplant. There was some discussion at the time as to whether his position caused him to go to the front of the line. In any event, it made me skittish about being in a situation where I was in a hospital and an organ match for a VIP.

107 posted on 04/26/2009 9:07:18 AM PDT by PapaBear3625 (The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money -- Thatcher)
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To: TornadoAlley3

In disaster situations such triage is necessary and expedient. However, under Obama’s national health plan such decisions to ration care will be routine.


108 posted on 04/26/2009 9:13:55 AM PDT by The Great RJ (chain.)
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To: PapaBear3625

Oops, meant to say “NOT be productive”


109 posted on 04/26/2009 9:14:11 AM PDT by PapaBear3625 (The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money -- Thatcher)
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To: Marie
You don't assign a value to each person, as a *person*, then decide if you're going to treat them or not.

Marie, you are exactly right the only one that can and should decide this is God..He can do miracles that so many will never know he can do because they won't trust..Don't choose who will die or live that sounds like something the Nazi’s did when they decided that the Jews were not good enough..

110 posted on 04/26/2009 10:00:11 AM PDT by PLD
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To: PapaBear3625

One of the reasons I’m not a donor and likely never will be.

Should a family member require something I have, they get it, but that’s as far as it goes.


111 posted on 04/26/2009 11:18:25 AM PDT by Dr.Zoidberg (Warning: Sarcasm/humor is always engaged. Failure to recognize this may lead to misunderstandings.)
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To: napscoordinator
I guess the only thing you can do is get off your butt and help the 50 thousand doctors and nurses help 300 million people. That is seriously what it will take. the healthier people will suddenly become doctors and nurses to help the 300 million people.

You're thinking like a human being. :-)

112 posted on 04/26/2009 11:31:14 AM PDT by Marie (I'd die for Sara Palin's Down's Syndrome baby.)
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To: ReignOfError
Priority goes to those people who are in most urgent need of care. If resources are strained, the next priority is those who are most likely to be savable. Is it "compassionate" for a team of doctors to spend hours working on one patient who's likely to die anyway, while a dozen patients who could be saved die waiting for a doctor?

You just said it - those who are savable. These guidelines go *beyond* that and decide who's worth saving. They aren't saying "who's sickest - who has the greatest possibility of surviving this disease". They're saying, "We aren't even going to ask that. Certain groups of people won't even be considered."

Please try to understand, it’s not this flu that bothers me. I have every confidence that it’s weird, but not even close to as serious as the media is letting on. I’m sure we’ll all be fine.

What bothers me is that you guys can’t realize that this is a policy change that signals a fundamental shift of *morality* within our medical system. In the event of serious pandemic, this can go to the point where they cut off life-saving medicine to healthy, non-infected disabled people. (IE: Not giving my kid his insulin or denying an asthmatic an inhaler.)

113 posted on 04/26/2009 11:42:06 AM PDT by Marie (I'd die for Sara Palin's Down's Syndrome baby.)
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To: Spartan79
I remember a war movie in which a doctor declined to treat an seemingly mortally wounded soldier, only to reconsider when he found himself staring down the barrel of the soldier’s buddy’s pistol.

That doctor had no patients that he was working on at the time James Caan brought in his captain. The doc refused to examine the captain because he thought he was dead already. Different situation because he wasn't denying treatment in a triage situation, he thought he was smarter than Caan. After being convinced by the .45 to examine the captain, the doc realized he was wrong about his casual death diagnosis. Which is why when presented with the opportunity to have Caan arrested, he declined. He understood that Caan had provided him an opportunity to return to his profession.

114 posted on 04/26/2009 12:07:26 PM PDT by xone
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To: TornadoAlley3; Marie; nickcarraway; Lady In Blue; NYer; ELS; Pyro7480; livius; Catholicguy; ...
Please Pray for the Unborn
 
At any age!!!
From natural birth to natural death!
 
 

115 posted on 04/26/2009 1:47:36 PM PDT by Salvation ( †With God all things are possible.†)
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To: Blogger

Thanks, Blogger. Appreciate your pro-life stance.


116 posted on 04/26/2009 1:48:47 PM PDT by Salvation ( †With God all things are possible.†)
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To: bushwon

Pro-life bump!


117 posted on 04/26/2009 1:49:59 PM PDT by Salvation ( †With God all things are possible.†)
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To: puffer

Good God, that link reads like an American Auschwitz.

May God have mercy on us!
May Christ have mercy on us!
May God have mercy on us!

And the whole world, of course!


118 posted on 04/26/2009 1:52:42 PM PDT by Salvation ( †With God all things are possible.†)
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To: Marie
Regardless of anyone's faith or religion!

Prayer for Those Who Are Terminally Ill

 
Lord Jesus, you healed so many people during your public ministry. I bring before you now, in prayer, all those who are terminally ill -- those afflicted with cancer, AIDS, and other illnesses.
 
Look lovingly and compassionately upon them. Let them feel the strength of your consolation. Help them and their families to accept this cross they are asked to carry.  Protect them from euthanasia, Lord.
 
Let them see you carrying their cross with them, at their side, as you once carried yours to Calvary. May Mary be there, too, to comfort them. 
 
Lord Jesus, I know and believe that, if it is your will, you can cure those I pray for (especially N.). I place my trust in you. I pray with faith, but I also pray as you did in Gethsemane: your will be done. 
 
Bless us, Lord, and hear my prayer. Amen.
 
Reprinted from "Queen of Apostles Prayerbook" with permission of copyright holder, Pauline Books & Media,

119 posted on 04/26/2009 1:54:53 PM PDT by Salvation ( †With God all things are possible.†)
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To: OneWingedShark

Only federal employees at Department of Education, etc. You want to keep the postal employees around. They have trucks.


120 posted on 04/26/2009 1:55:54 PM PDT by muawiyah
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To: ChicagahAl

+1.


121 posted on 04/26/2009 1:57:27 PM PDT by GraniteStateConservative (...He had committed no crime against America so I did not bring him here...-- Worst.President.Ever.)
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To: All
expected On the list:

Political opponents/activists, (including us freepers BTW)

anyone with any mental illness label (basically if your different in anyway in appearence or thinking you fall into this catagory)

The elderly, very weak and sick. Less welfare money for them more for those who are too lazy to work

Those who have severe trauma or injuries (save money on medicare NHS ETC.)

Those with severe mental impairment, which could include advanced Alzheimer’s disease.(see post 3 and 4)

Lots more.

122 posted on 04/26/2009 1:57:43 PM PDT by mainestategop (MAINE: The way communism should be)
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To: bushwon
We have a national physicians and nurses shortage. That's not going to change just because you have a national disaster.

The time to act is now, but the National Chamber of Commerce and the Farm Bureau Co-Op folks have joined forces with La Raza to prevent us from getting more medical personnel from abroad unless we open the boarders.

123 posted on 04/26/2009 1:57:51 PM PDT by muawiyah
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To: Lucius Cornelius Sulla

Prayers for you!


124 posted on 04/26/2009 1:58:20 PM PDT by Salvation ( †With God all things are possible.†)
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To: Salvation

May I also add to your prayer this:

G-d of Abraham, I ask that you open the eyes of the healthy to the gifts offered by the disabled. May they not look at them with pity, but with compassion and be humbled by the courage and strength displayed by these people every day of their lives.


125 posted on 04/26/2009 1:59:56 PM PDT by Marie (I'd die for Sara Palin's Down's Syndrome baby.)
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To: Spartan79; Marie

We still have no right to take the life of a comatose person. God is the creator of life and God has a plan for you. Listen to Him!


126 posted on 04/26/2009 2:00:29 PM PDT by Salvation ( †With God all things are possible.†)
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To: m4629

The Captain of the Titanic simply didn’t have the same situation. He wasn’t a doctor for one thing. He didn’t have a mess of sick an dying people. They were all quite healthy (until, of course, they fell into the water and froze or drowned).


127 posted on 04/26/2009 2:01:24 PM PDT by muawiyah
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To: Marie
Quite Frankly Marie I'm going to simply kidnap a doctor and keep him here at the house to take care of us until this is all over.

You go fight it out with the others. OK?!

128 posted on 04/26/2009 2:02:25 PM PDT by muawiyah
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To: Quix

Great post!


129 posted on 04/26/2009 2:02:45 PM PDT by Salvation ( †With God all things are possible.†)
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To: Marie; napscoordinator

**You’re thinking like a human being. :-) **

And not as God thinks!


130 posted on 04/26/2009 2:05:25 PM PDT by Salvation ( †With God all things are possible.†)
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To: muawiyah
Quite Frankly Marie I'm going to simply kidnap a doctor and keep him here at the house to take care of us until this is all over.

You go fight it out with the others. OK?!

LOL! Good plan!

131 posted on 04/26/2009 2:05:50 PM PDT by Marie (I'd die for Sara Palin's Down's Syndrome baby.)
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To: Marie

Great addition!

I have a Down Syndrome grandchild. I know!


132 posted on 04/26/2009 2:07:02 PM PDT by Salvation ( †With God all things are possible.†)
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To: Salvation

Heck they can let me go.This is what Jacinta and Francesco died of.Lucia never got it.


133 posted on 04/26/2009 2:07:09 PM PDT by fatima (Free Hugs Today :))
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To: Gaffer

We only know they have a lot of this in Mexico. No one actually knows where it originated.


134 posted on 04/26/2009 2:08:19 PM PDT by muawiyah
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To: fatima

**This is what Jacinta and Francesco died of.Lucia never got it.**

Amen! Again, God’s timing — not ours!


135 posted on 04/26/2009 2:09:01 PM PDT by Salvation ( †With God all things are possible.†)
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To: TornadoAlley3

In an ideal world, the people Rand described as “moochers” and “looters”.


136 posted on 04/26/2009 2:10:00 PM PDT by Lou Budvis ("We can't spare this woman, she fights.")
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To: TornadoAlley3; 185JHP; 230FMJ; 50mm; 69ConvertibleFirebird; Aleighanne; Alexander Rubin; ...
Moral Absolutes Ping!

Freepmail wagglebee or DirtyHarryY2K to subscribe or unsubscribe from the moral absolutes ping list.

FreeRepublic moral absolutes keyword search
[ Add keyword moral absolutes to flag FR articles to this ping list ]


137 posted on 04/26/2009 2:11:13 PM PDT by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)
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To: dawn53
Cholera is all over the place. Civilization helps keep it in its place. At the same time Northern Europeans have natural resistance to cholera (and a lot of other diseases).

In the distant past their genomes were obviously culled of those with no resistance to cholera.

138 posted on 04/26/2009 2:11:54 PM PDT by muawiyah
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To: TornadoAlley3

Unemployed people
Uninsured people


139 posted on 04/26/2009 2:13:16 PM PDT by Alouette (Vicious Babushka)
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To: bushwon

Save the water carriers, not the water drinkers.

I’d rather resouces be spent to preseve an octagenrian who has been productive their entire life, than a 20-something slob who’s destiny will include a stint on disability for some phantom back pain incured for being morbidly obese and protesting when his stupid factory gets shut down thanks to his knuckle-head union.


140 posted on 04/26/2009 2:15:50 PM PDT by Lou Budvis ("We can't spare this woman, she fights.")
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To: calex59
Well sure, no doubt, but flu has its own history. It mutates (no, the flu virus is not a Creationist and has his own mind about these things), and sometimes the mutation makes it a gentler, kinder sort. Sometimes it turns into a rabid Democrat dedicated to killing the weak, helpless and innocent.

I really doubt Obama and his minions can swing flu one way or the other with any amount of talk.P>Neither can you.

141 posted on 04/26/2009 2:20:07 PM PDT by muawiyah
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To: Salvation

Not only pro-life but historical. This is Nazi Germany territory. The weakest and infirm in our society, just let them die. Of course, with a bunch of evolutionist/atheistic doctors, it is a logical choice. So much for the Hypocratic Oath.


142 posted on 04/26/2009 2:20:31 PM PDT by Blogger (It is in the religion of ignorance that tyranny begins. - Ben Franklin)
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To: PapaBear3625; Dr.Zoidberg

Interesting. Earlier this week I read a proposal from an official of one of the organ donation clearinghouses that adult potential recipients would have to be certified donors in order to get on a transplant list.


143 posted on 04/26/2009 2:25:25 PM PDT by buccaneer81 (Bob Taft has soiled the family name for the next century.)
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To: Alouette
Unemployed people

Tom Daschle. Kwame Kilpatrick. Bill Clinton.

144 posted on 04/26/2009 2:27:52 PM PDT by buccaneer81 (Bob Taft has soiled the family name for the next century.)
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To: Lucius Cornelius Sulla

I would like to publicly apologize for my uncalled-for snarling attack of Lucius. Obviously the subject matter hit a nerve, but that is no excuse for a personal attack. What he said did not warrant such bitter sarcasm.

I guess that this gives people a good idea of what will happen if medical care is denied to the disabled just because they’re disabled. Good, rational people will turn into ravaging animals in less than a minute to protect the ones they love. In my case, a FReeper with an almost ten year track record of civility blew up at just the *thought* of this happening.


145 posted on 04/26/2009 2:30:16 PM PDT by Marie (I'd die for Sara Palin's Down's Syndrome baby.)
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To: muawiyah
Well sure, no doubt, but flu has its own history. It mutates (no, the flu virus is not a Creationist and has his own mind about these things), and sometimes the mutation makes it a gentler, kinder sort. Sometimes it turns into a rabid Democrat dedicated to killing the weak, helpless and innocent. I really doubt Obama and his minions can swing flu one way or the other with any amount of talk.P>Neither can you.

Were you born a condescending jerk or did you have to go to school for it? I never said Bozo and the idiots could swing the flu virus, you might want to take reading comprehension class, it would be more productive than the jerk class you apparently took. This is not a huge epidemic, but the news media and Bozo are making it into a big deal, not by "swinging" the virus but by reporting it as a huge epidemic when it isn't. That is how you make a crisis, not by spreading a virus but by spreading unwarranted fear.

As a parting statement let me say I haven't tried to "swing" the flu virus either, I was making a point that the so called epidemic is more political than it is real.

If you don't believe that, that is your business, and if you want to respond to a comment in the future, anyone's comment, please make sure you know exactly what the other person was taking about before you run your mouth, or in this case your keyboard.

146 posted on 04/26/2009 2:34:19 PM PDT by calex59
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To: FormerACLUmember
Obama, Pelosi, and the rest of the democrats are drooling and can't wait to start murdering the frail, the infirm, and the defenseless.

And the fat!

147 posted on 04/26/2009 2:37:18 PM PDT by afraidfortherepublic
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To: calex59
So, how many people have to have this flu before it occurs to you that we might well want to prepare for it?
148 posted on 04/26/2009 2:38:40 PM PDT by muawiyah
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To: OneWingedShark
Politicians, Illegal Immigrants, Prisoners, and Federal Employees not directly employed by a defense agency or FBI/CIA/BP. In that order.

Sadly, those are the ones most likely to get lifesaving treatment, in that order.

149 posted on 04/26/2009 2:47:53 PM PDT by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: muawiyah

>So, how many people have to have this flu before it occurs to you that we might well want to prepare for it?

10% of the population.... WAY too late to do anything about it.


150 posted on 04/26/2009 3:11:49 PM PDT by OneWingedShark (Q: Why am I here? A: To do Justly, to love mercy, and to walk humbly with my God.)
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