Skip to comments.Who should MDs let die in a pandemic? Report offers answers
Posted on 04/26/2009 12:14:37 AM PDT by TornadoAlley3
CHICAGO Doctors know some patients needing lifesaving care won't get it in a flu pandemic or other disaster. The gut-wrenching dilemma will be deciding who to let die. Now, an influential group of physicians has drafted a grimly specific list of recommendations for which patients wouldn't be treated. They include the very elderly, seriously hurt trauma victims, severely burned patients and those with severe dementia.
The suggested list was compiled by a task force whose members come from prestigious universities, medical groups, the military and government agencies. They include the Department of Homeland Security, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention and the Department of Health and Human Services.
The proposed guidelines are designed to be a blueprint for hospitals so that everybody will be thinking in the same way when pandemic flu or another widespread health care disaster hits, said Dr. Asha Devereaux. She is a critical care specialist in San Diego and lead writer of the task force report.
(Excerpt) Read more at rds.yahoo.com ...
Triage is all about saving as many lives as possible, in a situation where there are not enough medical resources to go around.
In a grossly oversimplified example, lets say you have 20 units of "medical resource", and 5 patients.
Patients A, B, C, and D each need 5 units and will die if given less than 5. Patient E needs 20 units and will die if given less than 20. How do you allocate your 20 units of medical resources to maximize the number of surviving patients?
In the above example, saving the one who needs the most units of medical resources means that the other four will die, so you save the four who need the least.
They are also thinking about the economy, and assigning more value to the survival of workers who will help prop up the Democrat Welfare State. They are thinking about what happens if federal revenue drops too low due to too many taxpayers dying.
Give mine to someone that wants it, thanks.
True only God decides if you live or die. But supportive care in an ICU can treat secondary infection and provide temporary mechanical ventilation while the lungs heal. This is life saving and life sustaining in cases of severe influenza. However, we do not have the resources to do this for everyone. In an overwhelming epidemic, unfortunately, decisions about who gets such care will have to be made. The current system of first come first serve may not be the best. All the ICU beds available will be full within the first hours to days of an epidemic, and the rest of us are out of luck.
Actually, making the list gets people thinking about rationing care, but the truth is there is so little reserve in the system in terms of ICU beds and ventilators, that the system would be quickly swamped, and only a very tiny percentage of the critically ill would receive care. I would bet that in a city the size of Denver on any given day during cold and flu season, there are probably not 10 extra ICU beds in the entire city. You see the scope of the problem.
Unless your doc is a Freeper, too, and carries his own .45 on his hip...
Back in 1993, the 61 year old governor of Pennsylvania needed a heart and liver transplant. There was some discussion at the time as to whether his position caused him to go to the front of the line. In any event, it made me skittish about being in a situation where I was in a hospital and an organ match for a VIP.
In disaster situations such triage is necessary and expedient. However, under Obama’s national health plan such decisions to ration care will be routine.
Oops, meant to say “NOT be productive”
Marie, you are exactly right the only one that can and should decide this is God..He can do miracles that so many will never know he can do because they won't trust..Don't choose who will die or live that sounds like something the Nazi’s did when they decided that the Jews were not good enough..
One of the reasons I’m not a donor and likely never will be.
Should a family member require something I have, they get it, but that’s as far as it goes.
You're thinking like a human being. :-)
You just said it - those who are savable. These guidelines go *beyond* that and decide who's worth saving. They aren't saying "who's sickest - who has the greatest possibility of surviving this disease". They're saying, "We aren't even going to ask that. Certain groups of people won't even be considered."
Please try to understand, its not this flu that bothers me. I have every confidence that its weird, but not even close to as serious as the media is letting on. Im sure well all be fine.
What bothers me is that you guys cant realize that this is a policy change that signals a fundamental shift of *morality* within our medical system. In the event of serious pandemic, this can go to the point where they cut off life-saving medicine to healthy, non-infected disabled people. (IE: Not giving my kid his insulin or denying an asthmatic an inhaler.)
That doctor had no patients that he was working on at the time James Caan brought in his captain. The doc refused to examine the captain because he thought he was dead already. Different situation because he wasn't denying treatment in a triage situation, he thought he was smarter than Caan. After being convinced by the .45 to examine the captain, the doc realized he was wrong about his casual death diagnosis. Which is why when presented with the opportunity to have Caan arrested, he declined. He understood that Caan had provided him an opportunity to return to his profession.
Thanks, Blogger. Appreciate your pro-life stance.
Good God, that link reads like an American Auschwitz.
May God have mercy on us!
May Christ have mercy on us!
May God have mercy on us!
And the whole world, of course!
Lord Jesus, you healed so many people during your public ministry. I bring before you now, in prayer, all those who are terminally ill -- those afflicted with cancer, AIDS, and other illnesses.
Look lovingly and compassionately upon them. Let them feel the strength of your consolation. Help them and their families to accept this cross they are asked to carry. Protect them from euthanasia, Lord.
Let them see you carrying their cross with them, at their side, as you once carried yours to Calvary. May Mary be there, too, to comfort them.
Lord Jesus, I know and believe that, if it is your will, you can cure those I pray for (especially N.). I place my trust in you. I pray with faith, but I also pray as you did in Gethsemane: your will be done.
Bless us, Lord, and hear my prayer. Amen.
|Reprinted from "Queen of Apostles Prayerbook" with permission of copyright holder, Pauline Books & Media,|
Only federal employees at Department of Education, etc. You want to keep the postal employees around. They have trucks.
Political opponents/activists, (including us freepers BTW)
anyone with any mental illness label (basically if your different in anyway in appearence or thinking you fall into this catagory)
The elderly, very weak and sick. Less welfare money for them more for those who are too lazy to work
Those who have severe trauma or injuries (save money on medicare NHS ETC.)
Those with severe mental impairment, which could include advanced Alzheimers disease.(see post 3 and 4)
The time to act is now, but the National Chamber of Commerce and the Farm Bureau Co-Op folks have joined forces with La Raza to prevent us from getting more medical personnel from abroad unless we open the boarders.
Prayers for you!
May I also add to your prayer this:
G-d of Abraham, I ask that you open the eyes of the healthy to the gifts offered by the disabled. May they not look at them with pity, but with compassion and be humbled by the courage and strength displayed by these people every day of their lives.
We still have no right to take the life of a comatose person. God is the creator of life and God has a plan for you. Listen to Him!
The Captain of the Titanic simply didn’t have the same situation. He wasn’t a doctor for one thing. He didn’t have a mess of sick an dying people. They were all quite healthy (until, of course, they fell into the water and froze or drowned).
You go fight it out with the others. OK?!
**You’re thinking like a human being. :-) **
And not as God thinks!
You go fight it out with the others. OK?!
LOL! Good plan!
I have a Down Syndrome grandchild. I know!
Heck they can let me go.This is what Jacinta and Francesco died of.Lucia never got it.
We only know they have a lot of this in Mexico. No one actually knows where it originated.
**This is what Jacinta and Francesco died of.Lucia never got it.**
Amen! Again, God’s timing — not ours!
In an ideal world, the people Rand described as “moochers” and “looters”.
In the distant past their genomes were obviously culled of those with no resistance to cholera.
Save the water carriers, not the water drinkers.
I’d rather resouces be spent to preseve an octagenrian who has been productive their entire life, than a 20-something slob who’s destiny will include a stint on disability for some phantom back pain incured for being morbidly obese and protesting when his stupid factory gets shut down thanks to his knuckle-head union.
I really doubt Obama and his minions can swing flu one way or the other with any amount of talk.P>Neither can you.
Not only pro-life but historical. This is Nazi Germany territory. The weakest and infirm in our society, just let them die. Of course, with a bunch of evolutionist/atheistic doctors, it is a logical choice. So much for the Hypocratic Oath.
Interesting. Earlier this week I read a proposal from an official of one of the organ donation clearinghouses that adult potential recipients would have to be certified donors in order to get on a transplant list.
Tom Daschle. Kwame Kilpatrick. Bill Clinton.
I would like to publicly apologize for my uncalled-for snarling attack of Lucius. Obviously the subject matter hit a nerve, but that is no excuse for a personal attack. What he said did not warrant such bitter sarcasm.
I guess that this gives people a good idea of what will happen if medical care is denied to the disabled just because they’re disabled. Good, rational people will turn into ravaging animals in less than a minute to protect the ones they love. In my case, a FReeper with an almost ten year track record of civility blew up at just the *thought* of this happening.
Were you born a condescending jerk or did you have to go to school for it? I never said Bozo and the idiots could swing the flu virus, you might want to take reading comprehension class, it would be more productive than the jerk class you apparently took. This is not a huge epidemic, but the news media and Bozo are making it into a big deal, not by "swinging" the virus but by reporting it as a huge epidemic when it isn't. That is how you make a crisis, not by spreading a virus but by spreading unwarranted fear.
As a parting statement let me say I haven't tried to "swing" the flu virus either, I was making a point that the so called epidemic is more political than it is real.
If you don't believe that, that is your business, and if you want to respond to a comment in the future, anyone's comment, please make sure you know exactly what the other person was taking about before you run your mouth, or in this case your keyboard.
And the fat!
Sadly, those are the ones most likely to get lifesaving treatment, in that order.
>So, how many people have to have this flu before it occurs to you that we might well want to prepare for it?
10% of the population.... WAY too late to do anything about it.