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Faulty rules blamed for gun's firing (airline pilot's accidental discharge)
Washington Times ^ | March 28, 2008 | Audrey Hudson

Posted on 03/28/2008 12:28:59 PM PDT by neverdem

Inadequate handgun rules designed by Department of Homeland Security officials are to blame for last weekend's accidental discharge of a pistol by a commercial pilot during landing preparations, a pilots association said yesterday.

"The pilot has to take his gun off and lock it up before he leaves the cockpit, so he was trying to secure the gun in preparation for landing, while he was trying to fly the airplane, too," said David Mackett, president of the Airline Pilots Security Alliance. "In the process of doing that, the padlock that is required to be inserted into the holster pulled the trigger and caused the gun to discharge."

The unnamed US Airways pilot, who was landing at Charlotte/Douglas (N.C.) International Airport, has been placed on leave by the airline since the incident.

This was the first report of a pilot's gun being discharged on a plane.

APSA, an organization of pilots...

--snip--

"We complained to DHS two years ago that this was an unsafe rule," Mr. Mackett said.

Rather than carry the weapon on their person at all times, pilots must lock it up before opening the cockpit door, meaning pilots handle the gun as many as 10 times per flight, the association estimates.

Pilots who have completed training to become federal flight deck officers (FFDOs) and carry weapons must use a holster used primarily as a home child-safety lock. A padlock is inserted through the holster and trigger guard, but, if inserted backward, it can trigger the gun, pilots say.

"It's a completely unsafe system unless it's used in a static environment — in a bedroom with good light. But to try to balance a gun on your lap and padlock it while flying an airplane 300 miles an hour, sometimes in the dark, is not secure," Mr. Mackett said....

(Excerpt) Read more at washingtontimes.com ...


TOPICS: Crime/Corruption; Front Page News; Politics/Elections; War on Terror
KEYWORDS: armedpilots; banglist; dhs; ffdo; usairways
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To: neverdem
Hmmm.........

I wonder where all of the brain surgeons on the previous thread who swore that it HAD TO BE GLOCK are right about now?



Ahhh .... the sound of silence!

51 posted on 03/28/2008 2:00:23 PM PDT by Eaker (2 Thessalonians 3:10 ... He that will not work, neither should he eat.)
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To: Hazcat; PowderMonkey
Ahem....AN UNLOADED GUN IS AN EXPENSIVE ROCK!

And the owner should not carry one.

52 posted on 03/28/2008 2:02:25 PM PDT by Cobra64 (www.BulletBras.net)
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To: neverdem

This is what happens when we let dumbasses who’ve never used a gun write gun laws.


53 posted on 03/28/2008 2:06:30 PM PDT by 3niner (War is one game where the home team always loses.)
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To: PapaBear3625
Pilot error. The pilot has no business "leaving the cockpit" while he's trying to fly the plane

Yeah, he should just "hold it" for another five hours, if he needs to pee.

54 posted on 03/28/2008 2:08:01 PM PDT by 3niner (War is one game where the home team always loses.)
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To: neverdem

How’s about we carry a gun with grip safety or one with a heavy enough double action trigger to keep this from happening.

Some guns with light DA triggers are susceptible to this kind of discharges. Normally, before storage, those guns are pointed in a safe direction and unloaded before storage. Since there is no safe direction on an airplane, a different kind of weapon is in order.

A 1911 is the first gun to come to mind. Next would be pretty much any revolver. The DA pull and the extra safety on a Ruger P-series would be a good choice as well.


55 posted on 03/28/2008 2:13:36 PM PDT by Poser (Willing to fight for oil)
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To: untrained skeptic
Sounds like pretty extreme negligence on the part of the pilot rather than a problem with faulty rules.

You see nothing wrong with these rules?

They seem designed to enable incidents like this.

Better solution. Fire the TSA/HS bureaucrat who came up with the rules. No second chance.

56 posted on 03/28/2008 2:21:51 PM PDT by Oztrich Boy (Rules are for the guidance of wise men and the blind obedience of fools - Solon, Lawmaker of Athens)
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To: dhs12345
Haven't tried this yet with my hi-power but I wonder if my hi-power will discharge with a round chambered and the clip removed.

What is a "hi-power?"

Are you referring to a Browning Hi-Power?

They do not take clips.
Photobucket

They take magazines:
Photobucket

.

.

Ooops, ammo magazines...

PhotobucketPhotobucket

Photobucket

57 posted on 03/28/2008 2:22:02 PM PDT by Cobra64 (www.BulletBras.net)
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To: neverdem
"Faulty Rules"?

Nothing faulty about the rule that says 'keep your finger off the trigger until you are ready to fire'.

58 posted on 03/28/2008 2:32:05 PM PDT by SiVisPacemParaBellum (Peace through superior firepower!)
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To: PapaBear3625
I remember a short-lived clamshell holster where you put the holster's "protrusion" through the trigger guard to secure the gun. Many cops shot themselves with that design.

Bureaucrats will never get the message of commonsense re firearms.

59 posted on 03/28/2008 2:43:25 PM PDT by LouAvul
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To: dhs12345
My self-defense revolver is always loaded.

Why? Isn't it dangerous? (sarcasm) ... Just as you said a semi-automatic pistol is dangerous if a round is in the chamber.

And, if you have an older, single action revolver without a transfer bar, all chambers loaded, with a live round under the hammer, a revolver drop to the hammer could cause it to fire.

60 posted on 03/28/2008 2:45:07 PM PDT by Cobra64 (www.BulletBras.net)
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To: Eaker

Yea, but it was a polymer pistol. /sarcasm


61 posted on 03/28/2008 2:47:01 PM PDT by Cobra64 (www.BulletBras.net)
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To: TalonDJ
Those lights are not all that bright. There is still stuff going on in the cockpit to distract him even if his hands are not on the controls.

They're bright enough to read maps.

There's also another guy to handle the airplane while he's fooling around with his pistol.

In the cockpit of an aircraft there is no safe direction.

Sure there is. You can always point it to the side of the airplane, under the side cockpit windows. There's no vital electronics or cables. One little hole won't cause the airplane to crash or depressurize.

62 posted on 03/28/2008 2:47:56 PM PDT by Ol' Dan Tucker (After six years of George W. Bush I long for the honesty and sincerity of the Clinton Administration)
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To: ghostcat
"These trainers are baffled to learn of the holster lock and unlock procedures that I won’t disclose here."

From the posted pics, I'll take a guess...Four digit tumbler & a key required. He has to secure the lock while wearing the firearm and then remove from his person.

Does the holster come with it's own belt already threaded or does the pilot have to secure to his own while in the cockpit?

63 posted on 03/28/2008 2:52:19 PM PDT by Deaf Smith
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To: Cobra64
Yup.

Love it. And yes, it has a magazine instead of a clip.

Too bad, the technology doesn't allow the shooter to know if a round is chambered.

I always store my autos (have a Ruger MK11, too) with the chamber open. Even if a magazine is loaded. Not as easy when it is in the holster or when handling.

64 posted on 03/28/2008 2:54:05 PM PDT by dhs12345
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To: Cobra64
Have a revolver (GP100) with a transfer bar.

And yes, I always treat my Hi-Power and MKII differently than my GP100.

Always makes storage interesting because pistol boxes and bags are not big enough — always store both with the slide/chamber open.

Not that easy in a holster, either.

65 posted on 03/28/2008 3:02:58 PM PDT by dhs12345
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To: neverdem

Neverdem,

Michael Bane is the real deal, been around for ever. Helped start ISPCA (or what ever thos e initials are) and NSSF and IDPA and a bunch of other stuff.

He has two shows on the outdoor channle (Shooting Gallery and Cowboys)

Here is a link to his main site called Downrange TV http://www.downrange.tv/ LOTS of good info.


66 posted on 03/28/2008 3:09:32 PM PDT by Hazcat (We won an immigration BATTLE, the WAR is not over. Be ever vigilant.)
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To: wastedyears

Check post 6... a padlock thru the trigger guard mustve been designed by DiFi...


67 posted on 03/28/2008 3:17:15 PM PDT by Gilbo_3 (Choose Liberty over slavery... the gulag awaits ANY compromise with evil...LiveFReeOr Die...)
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To: NonValueAdded

With reinforced doors, the only time a pilot would need a firearm is when the cockpit door is open... Yet that is the only time he cannot have a firearm.

Brilliant plan, TSA.

There is an easy way to spot pilots who are part of the weapons program. I won’t say, but it is pretty obvious and could make pilots targets inside airports.


68 posted on 03/28/2008 3:18:24 PM PDT by MediaMole
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To: neverdem
Rather than carry the weapon on their person at all times, pilots must lock it up before opening the cockpit door, meaning pilots handle the gun as many as 10 times per flight, the association estimates.

The brainiacs in the TSA strike again. This "safety" rule is beyond stupid. It is criminal negligence and an accident waiting to happen.

TSA never wanted to arm the pilots in the first place. Now they'll want to disarm them again in the interest of "safety". It's for the children, you know!

69 posted on 03/28/2008 3:22:18 PM PDT by Gritty (Never call an unarmed man 'security'. Call him 'run-like-hell-when-shooting-starts'."-LTC D Grossman)
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To: SiVisPacemParaBellum
Nothing faulty about the rule that says 'keep your finger off the trigger until you are ready to fire'.

Read the story, and check the pic in comment# 6.

70 posted on 03/28/2008 3:27:12 PM PDT by neverdem (I'm praying for a Divine Intervention.)
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To: PowderMonkey

Excellent point. I wonder if there’s a policy on that, and if he was following it. They wouldn’t urge pilots to keep one in the chamber would they?


71 posted on 03/28/2008 3:28:02 PM PDT by DoughtyOne (New Europe, John Benedict Arnold McCain's bridge to 07/03/1776. Not even our past is safe.)
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To: dhs12345
From the factory, a Browning Hi Power or a clone of one, has a magazine disconnect to prevent pulling the trigger and dropping the hammer when the magazine is removed, whether or not there is a cartridge in the chamber.

A lot of people remove the magazine disconnect to improve the trigger pull and for other reasons. A "previously owned" Hi Power may have had that done.

Some say it is an advantage to be able to remove the magazine, leave a cartridge in the chamber, and have the firearm be unfireable. Some say it is not an advantage.

72 posted on 03/28/2008 3:38:01 PM PDT by KrisKrinkle
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To: Hazcat

Thanks for the link.


73 posted on 03/28/2008 3:40:28 PM PDT by neverdem (I'm praying for a Divine Intervention.)
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To: dhs12345
I always store my autos (have a Ruger MK11, too)

I didn't know Ruger made an MK11. Is that the next generation after the 10 ?

74 posted on 03/28/2008 3:47:52 PM PDT by Cobra64 (www.BulletBras.net)
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To: Ol' Dan Tucker

To be considered a ‘safe direction’ it can’t be one square foot.


75 posted on 03/28/2008 3:49:01 PM PDT by TalonDJ
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To: Eaker
I wonder where all of the brain surgeons on the previous thread who swore that it HAD TO BE GLOCK are right about now?

Which thread wass that? I did think of a Glock. I knew a guy who said ne shot himself with a Glock trying to get it out of his pocket. It got snagged.

76 posted on 03/28/2008 3:50:25 PM PDT by neverdem (I'm praying for a Divine Intervention.)
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To: KrisKrinkle
Thanks!

Have never tried it. May try it just to be sure. I believe mine may have been modified even though I bought it “new” from a local, brand name, sporting goods store.

It has a very light trigger pull when compared to my friends hi-power. Takes some getting used to. Was going to have a gun smith look at it. Might have been modified as you mention.

Bottom line: I won't count on it. Just curious.

Rule #1: always treat a firearm as if it is loaded.

77 posted on 03/28/2008 3:54:52 PM PDT by dhs12345
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To: TalonDJ
To be considered a ‘safe direction’ it can’t be one square foot.

Okay. Where in the cockpit should he be pointing his (loaded) pistol when holstering and locking it?

"The pilot has to take his gun off and lock it up before he leaves the cockpit, so he was trying to secure the gun in preparation for landing, while he was trying to fly the airplane, too," said David Mackett, president of the Airline Pilots Security Alliance. "In the process of doing that, the padlock that is required to be inserted into the holster pulled the trigger and caused the gun to discharge."

...

"It's a completely unsafe system unless it's used in a static environment — in a bedroom with good light. But to try to balance a gun on your lap and padlock it while flying an airplane 300 miles an hour, sometimes in the dark, is not secure," Mr. Mackett said....

I wonder what the other guy was doing when this one was flying the airplane at 300 mph, down to a landing, in the dark, while trying to holster his (loaded) weapon and put the lock on it? (poor CRM)

78 posted on 03/28/2008 4:01:25 PM PDT by Ol' Dan Tucker (After six years of George W. Bush I long for the honesty and sincerity of the Clinton Administration)
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To: TalonDJ
FWIW: DEA Agent Shoots Hisself
79 posted on 03/28/2008 4:03:01 PM PDT by Ol' Dan Tucker (After six years of George W. Bush I long for the honesty and sincerity of the Clinton Administration)
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To: Cobra64
LOL.

Good little target pistol. Mine has the bull barrel. My wife loves it. Most accurate hand gun I have at short range. Tends to jam these days. Need to take it to a gun smith.

BTW, don't take what I am saying for granted. At lot of people are ignorant of the possibility of semi-auto being loaded when the clip is removed.

A guy next to me at a range accidentally discharged his auto for this very reason. The good news is that he had the barrel pointed in a safe direction. Makes me a bit of a zealot wrt this issue.

80 posted on 03/28/2008 4:04:36 PM PDT by dhs12345
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To: Cobra64

Excellent


81 posted on 03/28/2008 4:10:24 PM PDT by wastedyears (The US Military is what goes Bump in the night.)
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To: 3niner
Yeah, he should just "hold it" for another five hours, if he needs to pee.

He shouldn't be peeing while trying to fly the plane, either

My point is, before touching the gun, he should have turned over control of the plane to the co-pilot, and devoted his full attention to the task at hand, whether that is securing his gun or avoiding making a puddle on the cabin floor.

The pilots union implied the negligent discharge was caused by the pilot trying to do two important things at the same time (flying and manipulating a gun), and my point is that you should avoid trying to do that kind of multi-tasking

82 posted on 03/28/2008 4:36:04 PM PDT by PapaBear3625
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To: dhs12345
A lot of people are ignorant of the possibility of semi-auto being loaded when the clip is removed.

None of my pistols can accomodate a clip.

Photobucket Photobucket

How do you insert your "clips" into your Mark Eleven?

83 posted on 03/28/2008 4:42:41 PM PDT by Cobra64 (www.BulletBras.net)
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To: wastedyears; dhs12345

See his post 74. Unbelievable... dhs12345 must work for DHS.


84 posted on 03/28/2008 4:47:24 PM PDT by Cobra64 (www.BulletBras.net)
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To: wastedyears

Correction, post 80.


85 posted on 03/28/2008 4:48:07 PM PDT by Cobra64 (www.BulletBras.net)
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To: neverdem

I pinged ya to it.

As to yer buddy........

Is that a Glock in yer pocket or are you just happy to see me?

BANG!

Oh, I guess yer not happy to see me.


86 posted on 03/28/2008 4:52:52 PM PDT by Eaker (2 Thessalonians 3:10 ... He that will not work, neither should he eat.)
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To: neverdem

Hah! I KNEW it!


87 posted on 03/28/2008 5:00:02 PM PDT by Travis McGee (---www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com---)
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To: DoughtyOne

It’s possible. Some outfits require their protective details to keep a round chambered. The issue, however, is that all manufacturers of such trigger locks state unequivocally thou shalt not use a trigger lock on a loaded weapon. The reasons for this are obvious. That being said, if the front office weasels in TSA have an established policy contrary to common sense that clearly creates a situation leading to injury or death, you either ignore the rule, or opt out of the program. As a pilot, one would be free to choose the latter, and continue a happy care-free career flying the friendly skies. To do nothing means one hasn’t thought things through, and therefore shouldn’t be carrying a firearm.


88 posted on 03/28/2008 5:05:47 PM PDT by PowderMonkey (Will Work for Ammo)
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To: Eaker
It was an H&K with the special DHS TSA Glock Trigger Conversion.

I heard if from some guy on a really authoritative gun board.

89 posted on 03/28/2008 5:14:19 PM PDT by Travis McGee (---www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com---)
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To: Travis McGee

Hmmm. That guy be right, but generally speaking, after- market modifications to factory-standard equipment is a big NO-NO among Federal law enforcement groups. Some outfits won’t let their people perform even minor grip modifications (grip tape). (sigh) It’s a litigious world out there.


90 posted on 03/28/2008 5:24:01 PM PDT by PowderMonkey (Will Work for Ammo)
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To: PowderMonkey

I WAS JUST KIDDING!!!!!

(It’s an ongoing gag between Eaker and me, about Glocks.)

The culprit here is the dingbat TSA and their dingbat holster.

If thousands of pilot FDOs are shoving a curved piece of metal through the trigger guard of a DAO pistol 100s of 1,000s of times a year, a ND is a 100% certainty.


91 posted on 03/28/2008 5:34:41 PM PDT by Travis McGee (---www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com---)
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To: Travis McGee

DANG! Disappointed. And I was hoping to me get some of them TSA triggers for my three GLOCKS.


92 posted on 03/28/2008 5:40:05 PM PDT by PowderMonkey (Will Work for Ammo)
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To: LouAvul
What kind of cockamamied system is that?

Brought to you by the same type of government bureaucrats that Her Thighness and the Magic Negro want running our health care system.

93 posted on 03/28/2008 5:54:03 PM PDT by El Gato ("The Second Amendment is the RESET button of the United States Constitution." -- Doug McKay)
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To: PowderMonkey

Keep them Glocks in a holster, and they will NEVER spontaneously fire themselves. Guaranteed.


94 posted on 03/28/2008 6:03:08 PM PDT by Travis McGee (---www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com---)
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To: PowderMonkey

(Not counting holsters with trigger holes.)


95 posted on 03/28/2008 6:03:37 PM PDT by Travis McGee (---www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com---)
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To: deuteronlmy232
How do they get it if they need it in a hurry?

The theory must be that at the most vulnerable moment, when the door is opened for the pilot to exit, or enter for that matter since in most cases the second pilot will not be a FFDO and thus not authorized to unlock the weapon, or have his own, that's when the gun should be locked up.

Obviously the federal authorities are more worried about the pilot taking the gun into the cabin, or letting the guy with the lives of the passengers in his hands, the other pilot, having access to the firearm, without "official blessing", than they are about terrorists taking over the aircraft.

96 posted on 03/28/2008 6:08:01 PM PDT by El Gato ("The Second Amendment is the RESET button of the United States Constitution." -- Doug McKay)
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To: AngryJawa
Better idea - lockbox.

They had a box, of sorts. But only those pilots who are FFDO's could have them, and they had to be carried off the airplane, making it obvious, to the casual terrorist observer which planes had armed pilots and which did not. It was pretty heavy to be lugging around the airport along with the regular bags, chart case, etc.

97 posted on 03/28/2008 6:11:16 PM PDT by El Gato ("The Second Amendment is the RESET button of the United States Constitution." -- Doug McKay)
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To: dhs12345; Eaker
"Figured it was an auto."

Yeh. Happens all the time with Glocks.

*ducking for cover*

:)

98 posted on 03/28/2008 6:12:33 PM PDT by 2111USMC
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To: green iguana
The cockpit doors are strongly reinforced and always closed and locked now during flight.

Not true, I've personally seen them open so that the pilot could answer a call of nature. They would block the aisle in front of the door with a beverage cart. But apparently that, when the cockpit is most vulnerable, is one of the times when the federal powers that be insist that the gun be locked up in that chastity holster.

99 posted on 03/28/2008 6:16:31 PM PDT by El Gato ("The Second Amendment is the RESET button of the United States Constitution." -- Doug McKay)
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To: Travis McGee; PowderMonkey
I WAS JUST KIDDING!!!!!

LOL!

You saved me from having to think of a comeback to yer earlier post!

100 posted on 03/28/2008 6:18:46 PM PDT by Eaker (2 Thessalonians 3:10 ... He that will not work, neither should he eat.)
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