What is a "hi-power?"
Are you referring to a Browning Hi-Power?
.
.
Ooops, ammo magazines...
Posted on 03/28/2008 12:28:59 PM PDT by neverdem
Inadequate handgun rules designed by Department of Homeland Security officials are to blame for last weekend's accidental discharge of a pistol by a commercial pilot during landing preparations, a pilots association said yesterday.
"The pilot has to take his gun off and lock it up before he leaves the cockpit, so he was trying to secure the gun in preparation for landing, while he was trying to fly the airplane, too," said David Mackett, president of the Airline Pilots Security Alliance. "In the process of doing that, the padlock that is required to be inserted into the holster pulled the trigger and caused the gun to discharge."
The unnamed US Airways pilot, who was landing at Charlotte/Douglas (N.C.) International Airport, has been placed on leave by the airline since the incident.
This was the first report of a pilot's gun being discharged on a plane.
APSA, an organization of pilots...
--snip--
"We complained to DHS two years ago that this was an unsafe rule," Mr. Mackett said.
Rather than carry the weapon on their person at all times, pilots must lock it up before opening the cockpit door, meaning pilots handle the gun as many as 10 times per flight, the association estimates.
Pilots who have completed training to become federal flight deck officers (FFDOs) and carry weapons must use a holster used primarily as a home child-safety lock. A padlock is inserted through the holster and trigger guard, but, if inserted backward, it can trigger the gun, pilots say.
"It's a completely unsafe system unless it's used in a static environment — in a bedroom with good light. But to try to balance a gun on your lap and padlock it while flying an airplane 300 miles an hour, sometimes in the dark, is not secure," Mr. Mackett said....
(Excerpt) Read more at washingtontimes.com ...
I wonder where all of the brain surgeons on the previous thread who swore that it HAD TO BE GLOCK are right about now?
Ahhh .... the sound of silence!
And the owner should not carry one.
This is what happens when we let dumbasses who’ve never used a gun write gun laws.
Yeah, he should just "hold it" for another five hours, if he needs to pee.
How’s about we carry a gun with grip safety or one with a heavy enough double action trigger to keep this from happening.
Some guns with light DA triggers are susceptible to this kind of discharges. Normally, before storage, those guns are pointed in a safe direction and unloaded before storage. Since there is no safe direction on an airplane, a different kind of weapon is in order.
A 1911 is the first gun to come to mind. Next would be pretty much any revolver. The DA pull and the extra safety on a Ruger P-series would be a good choice as well.
You see nothing wrong with these rules?
They seem designed to enable incidents like this.
Better solution. Fire the TSA/HS bureaucrat who came up with the rules. No second chance.
What is a "hi-power?"
Are you referring to a Browning Hi-Power?
.
.
Ooops, ammo magazines...
Nothing faulty about the rule that says 'keep your finger off the trigger until you are ready to fire'.
Bureaucrats will never get the message of commonsense re firearms.
Why? Isn't it dangerous? (sarcasm) ... Just as you said a semi-automatic pistol is dangerous if a round is in the chamber.
And, if you have an older, single action revolver without a transfer bar, all chambers loaded, with a live round under the hammer, a revolver drop to the hammer could cause it to fire.
Yea, but it was a polymer pistol. /sarcasm
They're bright enough to read maps.
There's also another guy to handle the airplane while he's fooling around with his pistol.
In the cockpit of an aircraft there is no safe direction.
Sure there is. You can always point it to the side of the airplane, under the side cockpit windows. There's no vital electronics or cables. One little hole won't cause the airplane to crash or depressurize.
From the posted pics, I'll take a guess...Four digit tumbler & a key required. He has to secure the lock while wearing the firearm and then remove from his person.
Does the holster come with it's own belt already threaded or does the pilot have to secure to his own while in the cockpit?
Love it. And yes, it has a magazine instead of a clip.
Too bad, the technology doesn't allow the shooter to know if a round is chambered.
I always store my autos (have a Ruger MK11, too) with the chamber open. Even if a magazine is loaded. Not as easy when it is in the holster or when handling.
And yes, I always treat my Hi-Power and MKII differently than my GP100.
Always makes storage interesting because pistol boxes and bags are not big enough — always store both with the slide/chamber open.
Not that easy in a holster, either.
Neverdem,
Michael Bane is the real deal, been around for ever. Helped start ISPCA (or what ever thos e initials are) and NSSF and IDPA and a bunch of other stuff.
He has two shows on the outdoor channle (Shooting Gallery and Cowboys)
Here is a link to his main site called Downrange TV http://www.downrange.tv/ LOTS of good info.
Check post 6... a padlock thru the trigger guard mustve been designed by DiFi...
With reinforced doors, the only time a pilot would need a firearm is when the cockpit door is open... Yet that is the only time he cannot have a firearm.
Brilliant plan, TSA.
There is an easy way to spot pilots who are part of the weapons program. I won’t say, but it is pretty obvious and could make pilots targets inside airports.
The brainiacs in the TSA strike again. This "safety" rule is beyond stupid. It is criminal negligence and an accident waiting to happen.
TSA never wanted to arm the pilots in the first place. Now they'll want to disarm them again in the interest of "safety". It's for the children, you know!
Read the story, and check the pic in comment# 6.
Excellent point. I wonder if there’s a policy on that, and if he was following it. They wouldn’t urge pilots to keep one in the chamber would they?
A lot of people remove the magazine disconnect to improve the trigger pull and for other reasons. A "previously owned" Hi Power may have had that done.
Some say it is an advantage to be able to remove the magazine, leave a cartridge in the chamber, and have the firearm be unfireable. Some say it is not an advantage.
Thanks for the link.
I didn't know Ruger made an MK11. Is that the next generation after the 10 ?
To be considered a ‘safe direction’ it can’t be one square foot.
Which thread wass that? I did think of a Glock. I knew a guy who said ne shot himself with a Glock trying to get it out of his pocket. It got snagged.
Have never tried it. May try it just to be sure. I believe mine may have been modified even though I bought it “new” from a local, brand name, sporting goods store.
It has a very light trigger pull when compared to my friends hi-power. Takes some getting used to. Was going to have a gun smith look at it. Might have been modified as you mention.
Bottom line: I won't count on it. Just curious.
Rule #1: always treat a firearm as if it is loaded.
Okay. Where in the cockpit should he be pointing his (loaded) pistol when holstering and locking it?
"The pilot has to take his gun off and lock it up before he leaves the cockpit, so he was trying to secure the gun in preparation for landing, while he was trying to fly the airplane, too," said David Mackett, president of the Airline Pilots Security Alliance. "In the process of doing that, the padlock that is required to be inserted into the holster pulled the trigger and caused the gun to discharge."
...
"It's a completely unsafe system unless it's used in a static environment — in a bedroom with good light. But to try to balance a gun on your lap and padlock it while flying an airplane 300 miles an hour, sometimes in the dark, is not secure," Mr. Mackett said....
I wonder what the other guy was doing when this one was flying the airplane at 300 mph, down to a landing, in the dark, while trying to holster his (loaded) weapon and put the lock on it? (poor CRM)
Good little target pistol. Mine has the bull barrel. My wife loves it. Most accurate hand gun I have at short range. Tends to jam these days. Need to take it to a gun smith.
BTW, don't take what I am saying for granted. At lot of people are ignorant of the possibility of semi-auto being loaded when the clip is removed.
A guy next to me at a range accidentally discharged his auto for this very reason. The good news is that he had the barrel pointed in a safe direction. Makes me a bit of a zealot wrt this issue.
Excellent
He shouldn't be peeing while trying to fly the plane, either
My point is, before touching the gun, he should have turned over control of the plane to the co-pilot, and devoted his full attention to the task at hand, whether that is securing his gun or avoiding making a puddle on the cabin floor.
The pilots union implied the negligent discharge was caused by the pilot trying to do two important things at the same time (flying and manipulating a gun), and my point is that you should avoid trying to do that kind of multi-tasking
None of my pistols can accomodate a clip.
How do you insert your "clips" into your Mark Eleven?
See his post 74. Unbelievable... dhs12345 must work for DHS.
Correction, post 80.
I pinged ya to it.
As to yer buddy........
Is that a Glock in yer pocket or are you just happy to see me?
BANG!
Oh, I guess yer not happy to see me.
Hah! I KNEW it!
It’s possible. Some outfits require their protective details to keep a round chambered. The issue, however, is that all manufacturers of such trigger locks state unequivocally thou shalt not use a trigger lock on a loaded weapon. The reasons for this are obvious. That being said, if the front office weasels in TSA have an established policy contrary to common sense that clearly creates a situation leading to injury or death, you either ignore the rule, or opt out of the program. As a pilot, one would be free to choose the latter, and continue a happy care-free career flying the friendly skies. To do nothing means one hasn’t thought things through, and therefore shouldn’t be carrying a firearm.
I heard if from some guy on a really authoritative gun board.
Hmmm. That guy be right, but generally speaking, after- market modifications to factory-standard equipment is a big NO-NO among Federal law enforcement groups. Some outfits won’t let their people perform even minor grip modifications (grip tape). (sigh) It’s a litigious world out there.
I WAS JUST KIDDING!!!!!
(It’s an ongoing gag between Eaker and me, about Glocks.)
The culprit here is the dingbat TSA and their dingbat holster.
If thousands of pilot FDOs are shoving a curved piece of metal through the trigger guard of a DAO pistol 100s of 1,000s of times a year, a ND is a 100% certainty.
DANG! Disappointed. And I was hoping to me get some of them TSA triggers for my three GLOCKS.
Brought to you by the same type of government bureaucrats that Her Thighness and the Magic Negro want running our health care system.
Keep them Glocks in a holster, and they will NEVER spontaneously fire themselves. Guaranteed.
(Not counting holsters with trigger holes.)
The theory must be that at the most vulnerable moment, when the door is opened for the pilot to exit, or enter for that matter since in most cases the second pilot will not be a FFDO and thus not authorized to unlock the weapon, or have his own, that's when the gun should be locked up.
Obviously the federal authorities are more worried about the pilot taking the gun into the cabin, or letting the guy with the lives of the passengers in his hands, the other pilot, having access to the firearm, without "official blessing", than they are about terrorists taking over the aircraft.
They had a box, of sorts. But only those pilots who are FFDO's could have them, and they had to be carried off the airplane, making it obvious, to the casual terrorist observer which planes had armed pilots and which did not. It was pretty heavy to be lugging around the airport along with the regular bags, chart case, etc.
Yeh. Happens all the time with Glocks.
*ducking for cover*
:)
Not true, I've personally seen them open so that the pilot could answer a call of nature. They would block the aisle in front of the door with a beverage cart. But apparently that, when the cockpit is most vulnerable, is one of the times when the federal powers that be insist that the gun be locked up in that chastity holster.
LOL!
You saved me from having to think of a comeback to yer earlier post!
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