Posted on 03/17/2008 3:54:30 AM PDT by TornadoAlley3
Tampa issued a promissory note for $299.58 to pioneer storekeeper Thomas Pugh Kennedy on June 21, 1861. And his great granddaughter Joan Kennedy Biddle, 77, who has known about the note since she was a little girl, wants to collect with interest. TAMPA — In the early months of the Civil War, the city of Tampa needed ammunition and other supplies to defend against attack but apparently was short on cash.
So it issued a promissory note for $299.58 to storekeeper Thomas Pugh Kennedy on June 21, 1861.
Kennedy's great-granddaughter says the city never made good on its loan. Now, Joan Kennedy Biddle and her family are suing to collect the payment plus 8 percent annual interest.
The total bill: $22.7-million.
"Obviously we came at a bad time because the city seems like they're trying to cut their budget," she said. "On the other hand, they're building the Riverwalk."
Attorney James Purdy filed the suit in the Hillsborough Circuit Court last week. He did not return calls for comment.
Biddle wouldn't give specifics on why she decided to sue now, using as evidence a piece of paper that has been handed down as an heirloom for generations.
"This thing has been in the family since the date on the note, and it has never been repaid," said Biddle, 77. "My daddy told me, and I certainly believe him."
Tampa City Attorney David Smith said he doesn't consider the claim valid.
In legal documents, Biddle's attorney argues that the statute of limitations doesn't apply in the case because at the time the note was issued, the state had no such statute on such documents.
And Biddle pointed out that in the 1990s the federal government agreed to pay the Seminole tribe for land illegally taken in the 1820s.
But attorney John Grandoff said the city can defend against the case using the "doctrine of laches," which prevents claims from being made after an extraordinary passage of time.
"It's kind of how the court feels about whether it's been too long or not," Grandoff said. "It's total discretion on the judge's part."
Rodney Kite-Powell, curator at the Tampa Bay History Center, noted that the Tampa of 1861 is not the same city that exists today — literally.
Tampa was originally incorporated in 1855, but was abolished in 1869 in part because residents had no money to pay taxes, and the city had no money to pay its bills, Kite-Powell said. It was reincorporated in 1887.
At the time the note was issued, Tampa was a tiny town with about 800 residents, city limits that included just a portion of downtown. It also was home to Fort Brooke, where local Confederate soldiers were stationed.
Biddle's great-grandfather, Thomas Pugh Kennedy, was one of the city's most significant pioneers, Kite-Powell said.
He operated a store with business partner John Darling.
"Merchants are always important because they're the way people get stuff — from cannons to clothing and food," he said. "People really relied on these early merchants to supply people with what they needed."
Joan Kennedy Biddle grew up on Davis Islands and attended Plant High School. She moved to east Hillsborough in the 1960s and ran a lumber business with her late husband. She now owns a three-bedroom home in Brandon.
Biddle said she's known about the note since she was a little girl. "I showed it to the attorney, and he said it looked very interesting," she said. "It's strange that the thing has never been collected."
The statute of limitations is way past due.
SOL.
“Tampa was originally incorporated in 1855, but was abolished in 1869”
Not the same city. Case closed.
Wann’t this an epsisode on the Andy Griffith show? Was it denominated in Confederate dollars?
(2) The note was issued under the laws of a fictional country and not of the United States.
(3) The currency in which the loan was made was in Confederate dollars.
(4) If you make a loan to a treasonous conspiracy and it fails, you are left holding the bag.
Was that in US currency or Dixies? Would that make a difference?
Pay the note, adjusted for inflation. That would
be about $6000.
Once the City of Tampa has the note, they can auction
it off to historical collectors and get their money back.
The Confederate dollar became the official currency of Florida in April 1861.
The loan was made in June 1861, at a time when any reference to dollars in a contract would have been understood under state law to refer to Confederate currency, not American currency.
I would ask them how do they want it, then print some confederate money and pay them.
Not the same city. Case closed.
I think that will be the way they get out of it. With continuous incorporation and in the absence of a statute of limitations, the note holders might have a good case. But the simple passage of time is not sufficient. Remember that the 27th Amendment was ratified 200 years after it was proposed and when everyone thought it was a dead letter.
If the city that owed the debt is not longer in existence then too bad. Should have tried to collect it when they were. That's like trying to collect a debt from a business that is no more.
Bottom line - trying to get money for nothing.
Also may be just a tad difficult to prove it was never paid.
But, but, but -
“This thing has been in the family since the date on the note, and it has never been repaid,” said Biddle, 77. “My daddy told me, and I certainly believe him.”
I think she should get something back, but 22 million is not realistic. I would say 1 million tops.
The mayors office of the city of Tampa issued the note. They still exist.
(2) The note was issued under the laws of a fictional country and not of the United States.
It wasn't a fictional country(read a history book).
(3) The currency in which the loan was made was in Confederate dollars.
It wasn't a loan. No currency changed hands. Read the article.
(4) If you make a loan to a treasonous conspiracy and it fails, you are left holding the bag.
How very patriotic of you. These are your fellow Americans, not treasonous conspirators(we put those in jail).
So, if the US declares the Republic dead and reorganizes as a democracy, all the debt of the US is null and void? I sure hope you're presideing on that court.
An old Tony Randall movie plot was the same idea.
I believe that as part of Reconstruction, the South repudiated all Civil War debt. The idea was that people would be reluctant to lend states money for sessession if they knew there was a good chance that the debt would never be honored.
The note is an antiquarian curiousity, without legal force.
Legally, however, I don't think the lady has a leg to stand on since the terms of the U.S. Civil War and readmission of Florida to the union included reputation of all debt owned by the former Confederate States.
Some laws were enacted providing such things as veterans and widow's pensions but the reputation of debt was not one of them.
They deserve something, but the other half is that this should have been presented for payment long before this.
The Constitutional right to secede isn’t “treason”.
Beyond that, she deserves her money denominated in the currency in which it was loaned. Probably issued by some bank that no longer exists, certainly not the Federal Reserve, which was formed what, forty or fifty years after. If the bank doesn’t exist, how is the City, which technically doesn’t exist anymore either, going to withdraw the payment?
This note might be worth something as a museum piece, but probably not 22M.
“What is money? It cannot mend a broken heart or restore the shattered portals of a broken home. It cannot breath life into the dead dreams of youth. I speak, of course, of Confederate money.”
-Joel Chandler Harris
The city of Tampa that existed in 1861 was disincorporated and was not reincorporated until the 1880s.
The current city of Tampa is a different legal entity.
It wasn't a fictional country(read a history book).
The Confederate States of America never legally existed. It was a fictional country invented by traitors.
It wasn't a loan. No currency changed hands. Read the article.
Read the article? I did. And it reads: "Kennedy's great-granddaughter says the city never made good on its loan."
And I will say again: the currency of Florida at the time of the loan was Confederate currency. That is what reference to dollars meant legally at the time and what he expected to be repaid in.
How very patriotic of you. These are your fellow Americans, not treasonous conspirators(we put those in jail).
No, the advocates of the Confederacy specifically declared themselves no longer the fellow Americans of their loyal countrymen. And Code Pink is still out in the streets, despite your incarceration theory.
This woman's ancestor contributed to a traitorous rebellion against the lawful government of the United States.
This woman’s ancestor contributed to a traitorous rebellion against the lawful government of HALF of the United States.
I think she should have to sue in a confederate court.
LOL! Many of the immediate descendants of the Founders, especially those in Virginia, were "traitors". The sons and daughters of the guys who wrote the Constitution didn't understand the Constitution...
You can say anything you want at gunpoint - that's why it's good to be King...
However if the new city assumed the assets of the old one, then a case can be made that it also assumes the obligations. Many cities have been rechartered, some several times.
The note was not issued by the Confederacy, but by the City of Tampa. Confederate bonds became worthless with the collapse of the Confederacy. Municipal bonds did not.
Section 4. The validity of the public debt of the United States, authorized by law, including debts incurred for payment of pensions and bounties for services in suppressing insurrection or rebellion, shall not be questioned. But neither the United States nor any state shall assume or pay any debt or obligation incurred in aid of insurrection or rebellion against the United States, or any claim for the loss or emancipation of any slave; but all such debts, obligations and claims shall be held illegal and void.The loan was made for the purpose of buying ammunition for the Confederate side. It is null and void. It is illegal for any payment to be made towards it
IMO, the Mayor did not have the authority to assume debt for the City. Thus, the final line in the proposed promissory note, “See City Council meeting minutes this date...” Looks like the action had to be ratified by the City Council to be valid. Might be more information as to legal tender, etc. in those minutes, also. Wonder if they are archived somewhere?
Usually when a note is paid, the borrower gets the note back. Since the store owner still had possession, then it must not have been paid........Pay it in Confederate dollars. They'll soon be worth just as much as US dollars........
Benedict Arnold was himself a Founder and he was already a traitor.
And this is America - I don't care who your dad was. What matters is who you are.
The sons and daughters of the guys who wrote the Constitution didn't understand the Constitution...
Alexander Hamilton's children, James Madison's adopted son and John Jay's son did not support the Confederacy. The ideologues of the Confederacy were the intellectual and sometimes physical offspring of the Anti-Federalists who opposed our Constitution in the first place.
You can say anything you want at gunpoint - that's why it's good to be King...
God preserved the Union. It's very good that He is King.
(1) The city of Tampa that existed in 1861 was disincorporated in 1869.
(2) It is a promissory note, not a municipal bond.
Amendment 14
4. The validity of the public debt of the United States, authorized by law, including debts incurred for payment of pensions and bounties for services in suppressing insurrection or rebellion, shall not be questioned. But neither the United States nor any State shall assume or pay any debt or obligation incurred in aid of insurrection or rebellion against the United States, or any claim for the loss or emancipation of any slave; but all such debts, obligations and claims shall be held illegal and void.
And it was issued to aid the Confederacy which lost the Civil War. The fourteenth amendment ratified not long after the Civil War specifically repudiates any responsiblity for the federal or state governments to honor any debt incurred for the purpose of rebelling against the federal government. Read my comment #38. It also repudiates any damages incurred from the emanicipation of slaves. I can't believe any lawyer would actually touch this case. The attorney should be fined for filing a frivolous lawsuit.
You lose the argument by virtue of Godwin's Law.
Unsurprisingly, you are wrong yet again.
Anybody who calls men who take up arms and shed their own blood to defend their beliefs “traitors” is nothing but a keyboard commando, and akin to the later-day types who snipe at the likes of Robert E. Lee from the protection of decades of PC thought indoctrination by the socialist traitors [TRUE traitors] in the publik skools.
“Pay the note, adjusted for inflation. That would
be about $6000.Once the City of Tampa has the note, they can auction it off to historical collectors and get their money back.”
Yours is the only common sense post on this whole thread. It seems most people would like money for nothing, and are against paying off loans.
Says you.
For some on this thread who don't appear to understand what Godwin's Law is about: It's about inappropriate hyperbolic comparisons.
To wit: 'Since Benedict Arnold was a traitor, all Confederates were traitors. All descendants of the Founders who supported the Republic were NOT traitors. All descendants of the Founders who supported the Confederacy WERE traitors.'
From this it follows that since ALL the Founders were traitors to their original government, the laws that they made were nothing but treasonous trash, and any attempt to frame documents like the Declaration and the Constitution in noble terms is like putting lipstick on a pig.
A treasonous, slimy, backstabbing criminal pig.
;-)
;-)
Says the law and the history books.
Just remember:
Eliot Spitzer was "the law".
;-)
The successor entity, that which assumed the old city’s assets, is responsible for the debt.
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