Is Armenian Genocide Denial Good For The Jews?

The Stiletto ^ | April 30, 2007 | The Stiletto

[familyop]

"And, frankly, I resent that reference to 'the' Jews."

Then don't use it in your title with a generalizing accusation against them, "theothercheek." I resent people of replacement religions calling themselves the "chosen people" while falsely accusing Jewish people in general.

"If you don’t believe this, you are either a Turk or a Turkish apologist. Which is it?"

See my tagline. Our government just warned the Turks against crossing borders to attack Kurds. Are you hoping to madden them into an Iraq incursion? And what's with trying to drag American Jewish people into your Armenian Christian fight? If you must insist on irrelevant gestures, go bug some of our illegal Mexican immigrants or something. Our nation has many more of them to add attention to your cause.

[whitedog57]

There is a great book out, called “Skylark Farm” by Antonia Arslan, that, while fiction, accurately describes some of what happened during the Armenian genocide. As I am of Armenian ancestry, I find it pretty upsetting that not only is the genocide categorically denied by Turkey, but also that most traces of Armenian culture have been effectively wiped out, as if Armenians almost didn’t exist.

[whitedog57]

PING!

[familyop]

Well, I don’t get instruction from Foxman, although he may be Jewish. It appears that he’s assimilated for the time being and not interested in teaching Orthodox Judaism yet. Some Orthodox Rabbis are generous enough to teach us.

But what obligation or business does even Foxman have toward Armenia and Turkey? He’s obviously very much a contemporary, “progressive” American and doesn’t care about those places any more than he would about Mongolia.

[Wiz]

ping

[familyop]

"Abe Foxman is among the American Jews lobbying against the resolution."

"Lobbying" means speaking with congressmen in person in an effort to persuade them on a bill. Most often lawyers are hired to solicit members of Congress in Washington DC. From your article,...

"I don't think a bill in Congress will help reconcile this issue. The resolution takes a position. It comes to a judgment," said Abraham H. Foxman, national director of the Anti-Defamation League. "The Turks and Armenians need to revisit their past. The Jewish community shouldn't be the arbiter of that history," he said. "And I don't think the U.S. Congress should be the arbiter either."

Should some who are perceived to be leaders among Jewish people be required to decide that issue between Armenia and Turkey--especially during a time when most of the world is propagandizing for the destruction of Israel to appease Islamo-fascist nations?

[NYer]

Starved Armenian mom and child

"I am confident that the whole history of the human race contains no such horrible episode as this. The great massacres and persecutions of the past seem almost insignificant when compared to the sufferings of the Armenian race in 1915." 

--Henry Morgenthau, Sr. US Ambassador to the Ottoman Empire 

Catholic Ping
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[familyop]

It surprising that the effort for the US Resolution on history is happening at this time, given Armenia’s current hardships with Azerbaijan and Turkey. Such resolutions do pass with good timing, though, and the history of what really happened during WWI will not be lost.

I do have a suggestion, though. Have any Armenians or people of Armenian descent talked to UK political people? As I understand it, the UK has been a go-between for the west in negotiations with Turkey. Britain has oil interests, for one, in Turkey and the Caucasus. I can’t help but wonder if the USA would have had much of anything to do with Turkey, if it weren’t for the importance of Turkey to the UK.

[familyop]

Not long ago, relations between Turkey and the USA went cold. IIRC, the Brits did something to restart those negotiations for our diplomats.

[Aquinasfan]

The Turkish government and the ultranationalists who are resurgent in that country have worked equally hard to keep the U.S. government from taking a position.

Taking a position on what, the truth?

[theothercheek]

You are the only one on this thread who thinks anyone is being accused of anything. And the “chosen people of the new testament” is not something I made up. I don’t know who coined that phrase or when but it’s been around for a while.

[Rodney King]

For weeks, Washington, D.C. has been the scene of frantic smoky back-room lobbying and political maneuvering against H.Res.106/S.Res.106 (AHA The Armenian Genocide Resolution).

How about this: Why is the US government even discussing a bill about an event that happened in another country 80 years ago?

[familyop]

"You are the only one on this thread who thinks anyone is being accused of anything."

That's because I

* Have studied some of the early history of Christianity (especially the ancient).

* Am not Jewish, as our conservative Jewish Freepers don't often complain or argue much.

* Am learning about Judaism instead of simply accepting what people of other religions have had to say about it while trying to revise it for more than a 1000 years.

[SJackson]

If that’s all Abe said, I’d tend to agree with him.

[SJackson]

If you'd like to be on this middle east/political ping list, please FR mail me.

High Volume. Articles on Israel can also be found by clicking on the Topic or Keyword Israel. or WOT [War on Terror]

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[familyop]

"If that’s all Abe said, I’d tend to agree with him."

...me, too. For his comment, the worst that others could honestly but tenuously speculate about it is some hint of USA nationalism. I wonder as to what the situational context was when he made it. For example, did some journalist call him on the phone and ask?

[theothercheek]

It’s funny, but Foxman’s statements reminded me exactly of Ahmadinejad’s (probably misspelled, but too much trouble to look it up) similar statements about having to “study” whether the Holocaust happened and why the Palestinians were left “holding the bag” for something the Germans did. Wikipedia has a great article on such denials. It explains that an early tactic is to say that we don’t know what happened, it needs to be studied and then progresses to it never happened. This is what both these guys are doing. They are both denialists. I do not agree with Foxman, and I do not agree with Ahmadinejad.

[JoeFromSidney]

I never could understand why the Turks don't say, "Yes, it was genocide, but that was under the old, bad Ottomans. We don't do that any more."

[theothercheek]

Well, unfortunately, they still do that. They killed Armenian journalist Hrant Dink in January and three Catholic priests since the beginning of this year, and just a couple of weeks ago they killed a German evangalist and two Turks who had converted to Christianity (all three worked for a bible publisher and were killed at work) - they were bound, stabbed, evicerated, castrated and finally beheaded according to a letter from a local clergyman who, I think, presided over one of the funerals. The twin beasts of nationalistm and islamisism are joing forces and Christians - Armenians included - are in the gravest peril that they’ve been in since the Ottoman times.

[familyop]

"It’s funny, but Foxman’s statements reminded me exactly of Ahmadinejad’s (probably misspelled, but too much trouble to look it up) similar statements about having to “study” whether the Holocaust happened and why the Palestinians were left 'holding the bag' for something the Germans did. Wikipedia has a great article on such denials. It explains that an early tactic is to say that we don’t know what happened, it needs to be studied and then progresses to it never happened. This is what both these guys are doing. They are both denialists. I do not agree with Foxman, and I do not agree with Ahmadinejad."

Let's have a look at his statement in re. your accusations.

"I don't think a bill in Congress will help reconcile this issue. The resolution takes a position. It comes to a judgment," said Abraham H. Foxman, national director of the Anti-Defamation League. "The Turks and Armenians need to revisit their past. The Jewish community shouldn't be the arbiter of that history," he said. "And I don't think the U.S. Congress should be the arbiter either."

He didn't deny the history of the Ottoman dispersion of Armenians, and he didn't call for study of the matter.

You are wrong to imply designation of Foxman as the leader of all Jewish people. He's not even Orthodox. And you are wrong to falsely, generally accuse Jewish people out of your frustration with Armenia's situation with the Turks. It has nothing to do with Israel or the Jewish people, but you are, in essence, trying to dishonestly compare them to Nazis and Islamo-fascists with your false accusation. But then what's new? The rest of the nations are using the same propaganda tactics as originally devised in ancient Rome and later used in pre-WWII Germany and Italy.

As for Wikipedia, it's often biased in favor of Islamo-fascist, Catholic or Eastern Orthodox perspectives. Many of its hit pieces take a more or less British view of Israel.

And I detest the foreign allegiances of too many Americans. We should be American for American interests. We should be invading, occupying and denazifying Iran now, because Iran has repeatedly attacked our people and interests while continuing to threaten the USA with annihilation.

Since when are we in the USA obligated to wipe Armenia's rear end and bottle feed her? You've convinced me that our Government shouldn't have anything to do with it. We in the USA don't need to be getting involved in any fights between old-style fascists and Islamo-fascists: "The Good, the bad, and the Ugly" situations, all but without the "Good." That's why we shouldn't have become involved in the Balkans. "Gateway to Russia," my you-know-what. We have submarines, flying machines and carriers for those now.

What's in it for us? What has Armenia done for us?