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Army dismisses gay soldier 'outed' by e-mail
AP ^ | 7/27/6 | DUNCAN MANSFIELD

Posted on 07/27/2006 7:39:00 AM PDT by SmithL

JOHNSON CITY, Tenn. (AP) - A decorated sergeant and Arabic language specialist was dismissed from the U.S. Army under the "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" policy, though he says he never admitted being gay and his accuser was never identified.

Bleu Copas, 30, told The Associated Press he is gay, but said he was "outed" by a stream of anonymous e-mails to his superiors in the 82nd Airborne Division at Fort Bragg, N.C.

"I knew the policy going in," Copas said in an interview on the campus of East Tennessee State University, where he is pursuing a master's degree in counseling and working as a student adviser. "I knew it was going to be difficult."

An eight-month Army investigation culminated in Copas' honorable discharge on Jan. 30 _ less than four years after he enlisted, he said, out of a post-Sept. 11 sense of duty to his country.

Copas now carries the discharge papers, which mention his awards and citations, so he can document his military service for prospective employers. But the papers also give the reason for his dismissal.

He plans to appeal to the Army Board for Correction of Military Records.

The "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" policy, established in 1993, prohibits the military from inquiring about the sex lives of service members, but requires discharges of those who openly acknowledge being gay.

The policy is becoming "a very effective weapon of vengeance in the armed forces" said Steve Ralls, a spokesman for the Servicemembers Legal Defense Network, a Washington-based watchdog organization that counseled Copas and is working to repeal "Don't Ask, Don't Tell."

Copas said he was never open about his sexuality in the military and suspects his accuser was someone he mistakenly befriended and apparently slighted.

More than 11,000 service members have been dismissed under the policy, including 726 last year _ an 11 percent jump from 2004 and the first increase since 2001.

That's less than a half-percent of the more than 2 million soldiers, sailors and Marines dismissed for all reasons since 1993, according to the General Accountability Office.

But the GAO also noted that nearly 800 dismissed gay or lesbian service members had critical abilities, including 300 with important language skills. Fifty-five were proficient in Arabic, including Copas, a graduate of the Defense Language Institute in California.

Discharging and replacing them has cost the Pentagon nearly $369 million, according to the Center for the Study of Sexual Minorities in the Military at the University of California, Santa Barbara.

Lt. Col. James Zellmer, Copas' commanding officer in the 313th military intelligence battalion, told the AP that "the evidence clearly indicated that Sgt. Copas had engaged in homosexual acts."

While investigators were never able to determine who the accuser was, "in the end, the nature and the volume of the evidence and Sgt. Copas's own sworn statement led me to discharge him," Zellmer said.

Military investigators wrote that Copas "engaged in at least three homosexual relationships, and is dealing with at least two jealous lovers, either of whom could be the anonymous source providing this information."

Shortly after Copas was appointed to the 82nd Airborne's highly visible All-American Chorus last May, the first e-mail came to the chorus director.

"The director brought everyone into the hallway and told us about this e-mail they had just received and blatantly asked, 'Which one of you are gay?'" Copas said.

Copas later complained to the director and his platoon sergeant, saying the questions violated "Don't Ask, Don't Tell."

"They said they would watch it in the future," Copas said. "And they said, even specifically then, 'Well, you are not gay are you?' And I said, 'no.'"

The accuser, who signed his e-mails "John Smith" or "ftbraggman," pressed Copas' superiors to take action against him or "I will inform your entire battalion of the information that I gave you."

On Dec. 2, investigators formally interviewed Copas and asked if he understood the military's policy on homosexuals, if he had any close acquaintances who were gay, and if he was involved in community theater. He answered affirmatively.

But Copas declined to answer when they asked, "Have you ever engaged in homosexual activity or conduct?" He refused to answer 19 of 47 questions before he asked for a lawyer and the interrogation stopped.

Copas said he accepted the honorable discharge to end the ordeal, to avoid lying about his sexuality and risking a perjury charge, and to keep friends from being targeted.

"It is unfair. It is unjust," he said. "Even with the policy we have, it should never have happened."


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Extended News; Government; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: army; dontaskdonttell; homosexualagenda; military
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To: ma bell
You share the idiocy of that so-called 'christian' who preaches hate

Your traditions have clouded your judgment...that is sad.. but if you seriously want to debate this, lets take it up straight to the Bible and go at it.

BTW... The Bible says children that curse their parents are to be put to death. Ex. 21:17... right below the 10 commandments

What would Jesus say to this putting to death of children ?... would that be hate to him?

Answer me this ONE question... you brought up hate.. answer me this question then. Unless you are just a pertend, just as you like to shout at us.

251 posted on 07/28/2006 10:03:24 AM PDT by LowOiL ("I am neither . I am a Christocrat" - Benjamin Rush)
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To: LowOiL
LOL, pertend = pretender
252 posted on 07/28/2006 10:05:40 AM PDT by LowOiL ("I am neither . I am a Christocrat" - Benjamin Rush)
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To: LowOiL
Amazing, that is why Orthodox has remained the true religion and why we split from the other religious faith. I will not turn this into a religious debate so I will stop it right here.

Is that why Orthodox Priests do not have pedophiles? Getting back on track, ask your bud what his issue is. His transient belief in god does not sit well here. He decries the very person you and he ignore, that gay/lezzie will give his life for your right to post on here. yet, you want to boot him/her out of the military if they remain within the policy. You don't even know jack how accurate this article is. Yet, you decry his service. I personally could not care less if he was a fag or not. if he did his job and did it honorably, a good soldier, a good leader/nco, so be it.

253 posted on 07/28/2006 10:09:15 AM PDT by ma bell ("Take me to Pristine. I want to see the "real terrorists", Former Marine)
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To: LowOiL
I will not get into a religious war on here as I'm not a debatist in that department.

My Orthodox upbringing bestows traditions and honor to what we do. We are not perfect and I do not profess to be as neither are you or anyone else.

We must all realize that all of us sin and will do so in the future.

254 posted on 07/28/2006 10:16:51 AM PDT by ma bell ("Take me to Pristine. I want to see the "real terrorists", Former Marine)
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To: Lucky Dog
Why go to all that testing expense when it is far easier to just ban queers? Military service is a privilege not a right. No one is “entitled” to serve, especially if he or she does not want to follow the rules.

Why go to all that testing expense? I don't know, how about to keep soldiers with blood-borne pathogens off the battlefield and out of the ranks, where they can infect one another? Looking at CDC's numbers, there's a significant number of HIV cases that aren't caused by homosexual contact -- and since we already know, from the sheer fact that we're talking about this, that "don't ask don't tell" doesn't keep gays from joining the military, why not play it safe and eliminate the prohibition on sodomy and instead discharge those with the virus, of all genders and orientations?

Unless, of course, blood-borne pathogens are just a convenient excuse.
255 posted on 07/28/2006 10:20:14 AM PDT by kenboy
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To: ma bell
Since you will not answer my question... probable because you will find that Jesus was a man and was not against judging people, I will answer it for you. I don't care what religion you are, titles don't impress me. I do care what Jesus says..

First off...

Jesus affirmed the Mosaic Law even to the keeping of the "least of these commandments" (Mat. 5:17-19). He blasted the Pharisees for giving their own ideas precedence over God’s commands:

"Why do you also transgress the commandment of God because of your tradition? For God commanded, saying... `He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.’ But you say..." Mat. 15:3-4

"For laying aside the commandment of God, you hold the tradition of men..." [Jesus] said to them, "All too well you reject the commandment of God, that you may keep your tradition. For Moses said, `Honor your father and your mother’; and `He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.’ But you say..." Mark 7:8-11

Jesus defended the OT laws... and HE condemed those that would give to their own traditions of ignoring them. Just as you ignore those that spit in God's face with their homosexuality.

Christ was not at all embarrassed over His Father’s commands. Jesus repeated these commands without caveat or reservation. Guess Jesus was a real man, not a hide from the bushes and screamer of "not real Christian"...

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have come not to abolish them but to fulfil them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven."

I don't want to be the called the "least" in the kingdom.. You must...

256 posted on 07/28/2006 10:28:21 AM PDT by LowOiL ("I am neither . I am a Christocrat" - Benjamin Rush)
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To: LowOiL

I forgot to link my last quote from the Bible above... Matthew 5:17-19 ...


257 posted on 07/28/2006 10:31:04 AM PDT by LowOiL ("I am neither . I am a Christocrat" - Benjamin Rush)
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To: LowOiL
I'm proud to be Orthodox and we do not judge people. Your self-professed crusader friend is judging people. Is that right or wrong to do so? I have not judged anyone and I could not care less, good or bad what he does as long it does not harm anyone except Islamic ragheads, plain and simple.

this is one of our dogs that protects our vehicles along with us here in iraq..


258 posted on 07/28/2006 10:36:17 AM PDT by ma bell ("Take me to Pristine. I want to see the "real terrorists", Former Marine)
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To: Charles H. (The_r0nin)
If anonymous emails accused a soldier of screwing one of the other soldier's wives, and he refused to deny it (because he actually did it), he'd be lucky to get an honorable discharge... in a perfect world...

Actually under military law, adultery is considered a felony and you could be subjected to jail time (At least this is the case with Officers in the AF)
259 posted on 07/28/2006 10:39:36 AM PDT by rollo tomasi (Working hard to pay for deadbeats and corrupt politicians.)
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To: ma bell
My Orthodox upbringing bestows traditions and honor to what we do.

"Why do you also transgress the commandment of God because of your tradition? .......But you say..." Mat. 15:3-4

Today's Christians are much nicer than Jesus was... perhaps they are ashamed of Him... I don't plan on playing that role if I can help it.

260 posted on 07/28/2006 10:40:43 AM PDT by LowOiL ("I am neither . I am a Christocrat" - Benjamin Rush)
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To: ma bell
I'm proud to be Orthodox and we do not judge people.

Liar, you have done nothing but wrongfully judged those on this thread that dared judge rightly.

The notion that judgment is wrong is a ludicrous one. Should child-molesters escape condemnation? Should rapists be free from criticism? Should society refrain from judging those arrested for murder? Should we call evil good? Or would that be a judgment too?

A lie paralyzed the Church. To abhor evil, someone must first judge evil. God instructs men against "hypocrisy" commanding them to "abhor what is evil" (Rom. 12:9). Thus, unable to judge, and unaccustomed to abhorrence, Christians en masse become hypocrites when they obey the Hypocrites Golden Rule. For "judge not" (Mat. 7:1-5) is simply a hypocrites application of do unto others as you would have them do unto you (Mat. 7:12). "For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged" (Mat. 7:2). Judge others as you would have them do unto you inverted is Judge not if you do not want to be judged. Therefore the hypocrite does not judge. As Jesus said, "Judge not… you hypocrite" (Mat. 7:1, 5 KJV; Ezek. 16:52).

Christ kept this theme throughout His ministry. "Hypocrites," Jesus said, "why, even of yourselves, do you not judge what is right?" (Luke 12:56-57). Still, His own followers have mostly ignored the Lord’s harsh rebuke: "Hypocrite! First remove the plank from your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck out of your brother’s eye" (Mat. 7:5). "Judge Not" is the Hypocritical Oath.

"Judge Not" is hypocrite haven.

261 posted on 07/28/2006 10:49:53 AM PDT by LowOiL ("I am neither . I am a Christocrat" - Benjamin Rush)
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To: kenboy
Looking at CDC's numbers, there's a significant number of HIV cases that aren't caused by homosexual contact

What CDC report are you looking at? I track the CDC yearly reports and the 2004 report states most cases are caused from homosexual behavior: http://www.cdc.gov/hiv/STATS/2004SurveillanceReport.pdf. Look at pages 10-38.

The 2005 report is due out anytime now.

262 posted on 07/28/2006 11:01:17 AM PDT by scripter ("You don't have a soul. You are a soul. You have a body." - C.S. Lewis)
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To: kenboy
Looking at CDC's numbers, there's a significant number of HIV cases that aren't caused by homosexual contact –

Well, since you brought it up, let us, in deed, look at the numbers:

Death and disease accompany promiscuous and unsanitary sexual activity. 70%25 to 78%x,13 of gays reported having had a sexually transmitted disease. The proportion with intestinal parasites (worms, flukes, amoeba) ranged from 25%18 to 39%19 to 59%.20 As of 1992, 83% of U.S. AIDS in whites had occurred in gays.21 [emphasis added] The Seattle sexual diary study3? reported that gays had, on a yearly average:

1. fellated 108 men and swallowed semen from 48;
2. exchanged saliva with 96;
3. experienced 68 penile penetrations of the anus; and
4. ingested fecal material from 19.
No wonder 10% came down with hepatitis B and 7% contracted hepatitis A during the 6-month study.

From 1981 through 1999, there were 751,965 cumulative reported cases of AIDS in the U.S. At least 56 percent of the AIDS diagnoses occurred in gay or bisexual men. In other words, two percent of the population had at least 56 percent of those reported AIDS diagnoses. The second largest group was IV drug users. What about heterosexual sex? In the U.S., persons who have been infected with HIV through heterosexual contact have usually had vaginal or anal intercourse with someone in one of the high-risk categories -- a bisexual male or someone who is an IV drug user. [13]


Beyond all of the continual testing expense, I assume (perhaps, incorrectly) that you are aware that these discharged veterans would all be eligible for unlimited treatment through the VA, costing the taxpayers billions. From a common sense standpoint, this fact alone makes it imperative to keep the queers out of the military as much as is possible.

…and since we already know, from the sheer fact that we're talking about this, that "don't ask don't tell" doesn't keep gays from joining the military, why not play it safe and eliminate the prohibition on sodomy and instead discharge those with the virus, of all genders and orientations?

The number cited in the preceding paragraphs, alone, make your argument specious. However, there is still the issue of “good order and discipline” which you are studiously avoiding. Are you afraid to address that issue?
263 posted on 07/28/2006 11:18:49 AM PDT by Lucky Dog
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To: scripter
I think we're looking at the same numbers, but focusing on different things.

33% of male cases and 46% of all cases are from causes other than male-male sex. (Since 0% of the female cases are from male-male sex, the second number is probably ignorable -- but that's a solid third of cases among men not resulting from male-male sex.) Granted, many are from IV drug use, and I hope there's not much of that in the military -- but again, that's 10% of male cases being caused by something other than gay sex or drugs -- and a lot of the female cases -- and since we can't trust people to tell us if they're gay, and since removing all the gays who get caught would STILL leave us with HIV cases among the remaining soldiers, why not just spend the resources on testing, instead of investigating consensual sex?
264 posted on 07/28/2006 11:19:26 AM PDT by kenboy
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To: Lucky Dog
However, there is still the issue of “good order and discipline” which you are studiously avoiding. Are you afraid to address that issue?

I've addressed it numerous times, but this time, I'll put it to you directly:

To maintain "good order and discipline," do you believe that heterosexual soldiers who admit to having engaged in oral or anal sex with a member of the opposite sex, including, if they are married, their own wives, should be brought up on charges stemming from an Article 125 violation?

If not, why not? How is a straight soldier engaging in a form of sexual contact that is clearly against regulations according to Article 125 any less a breach of good order and discipline?
265 posted on 07/28/2006 11:31:11 AM PDT by kenboy
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To: kenboy
I've addressed it numerous times, but this time, I'll put it to you directly:

I beg to differ with your assessment.

To maintain "good order and discipline," do you believe that heterosexual soldiers who admit to having engaged in oral or anal sex with a member of the opposite sex, including, if they are married, their own wives, should be brought up on charges stemming from an Article 125 violation?

Yes, conditional on Article 32 protections being observed and that a solid case for the prosecution can be established. As an item of interest, I hold the same opinion for queers charged under this article.

If not, why not? How is a straight soldier engaging in a form of sexual contact that is clearly against regulations according to Article 125 any less a breach of good order and discipline?

It is no less a breach of good order and discipline and subject to the same sanctions if a solid case can be established.

Now, perhaps, you would care to explain how you deem your questions addressing the “good order and discipline” issue that I challenged you to expound upon.
266 posted on 07/28/2006 11:46:55 AM PDT by Lucky Dog
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To: LowOiL
I am all for many religious ideologues but one I do have issues with are "born-agains" such as you. Many of you have no room to talk as you are mainly talk and revisit "your transgressions" that made you so mad at your weakness/s that you wanted to make yourself feel good again by claiming Christ in your life.

Only a small percentage are legitimate and don't try to interpret it/twist it into these new-religions that pop up everywhere.

Is that what you are, in a newly created religion that pop up claiming to be the true religion?

I don't argue what is in the bible as I don't "know it" like many do. I do argue the hypocrasy that many of you fail at.

Would you go to war for your religion, whatever it might be? Will you do that?

267 posted on 07/28/2006 11:53:54 AM PDT by ma bell ("Take me to Pristine. I want to see the "real terrorists", Former Marine)
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To: LowOiL
oh to reply a second time, I've already went up against islam and this is my second go around. All to battle and fight for Orthodoxy and stop dead in its tracks, Islam.

What have you done for God in that sense besides "sitting fat" as you describe in your profile. Are you an armchair soldier wannabe? All talk, no walk huhh? I'll dig so far reaching into you and others that just "judged" me for that BS you spewed forth about how great Christ is. God is someone you answer to, yes. I do pray that I return from my missions each day as I run the gauntlet daily.

The original poster ridicules the grunts for bemoaning his attitudes as many are greater servants to God then he will ever be. What have you all done to defend God as we are in the midst of a modern day Crusade against Islam. Get a grip, oil.

268 posted on 07/28/2006 12:03:07 PM PDT by ma bell ("Take me to Pristine. I want to see the "real terrorists", Former Marine)
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To: TheGunny
Sounds like you are either have the mind of a 4 year old or are sick in the head. ONly people I know who say peepee are little boys or guys who like little boys
269 posted on 07/28/2006 1:37:21 PM PDT by FloridianBushFan (I support National Security. I SUPPORT HR4437 . Katherine Harris for Senate)
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To: FloridianBushFan
Sounds like you are either have the mind of a 4 year old or are sick in the head. ONly people I know who say peepee are little boys or guys who like little boys

Um...yeah (cuckoo birds sounding) Well its on to adult conversation and real world security ops (where discipline matters). Buh bye now (wave).
270 posted on 07/28/2006 1:51:36 PM PDT by TheGunny (Re-read 1&2 Corinthians)
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To: kenboy
The issue is the majority of HIV cases are found in homosexual men. HIV discriminates against homosexual men and HIV isn't the only health related issue. Syphilis, gonorrhea, rare chlamydia, new STDs, early death and more are all part of the homosexual identity:
Rising Syphilis Rate Linked to Gay Men
Gays faced with new STD strains
Drug-proof gonorrhea rises in homosexuals
Rare Chlamydia Strain Infecting Gay Men
Yet Another Study Confirms Gay Life Expectancy 20 Years Shorter
The same-sex attraction issue is huge. Men and women don't shower together for obvious reasons and the same is true for those with same-sex attraction. That is, homosexuals should not shower with heterosexuals.
271 posted on 07/28/2006 2:32:31 PM PDT by scripter ("You don't have a soul. You are a soul. You have a body." - C.S. Lewis)
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To: Lucky Dog
...discharged veterans would all be eligible for unlimited treatment through the VA, costing the taxpayers billions.

That's a very good point, and one I hadn't yet considered.

272 posted on 07/28/2006 2:34:55 PM PDT by scripter ("You don't have a soul. You are a soul. You have a body." - C.S. Lewis)
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To: scripter

There are numerous other ramifications. However, we'll let those wait for discussion after kenboy answers the more obvious issue.


273 posted on 07/28/2006 2:43:43 PM PDT by Lucky Dog
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To: ma bell
I am all for many religious ideologues but one I do have issues with are "born-agains" such as you. Many of you have no room to talk as you are mainly talk and revisit "your transgressions" that made you so mad at your weakness/s that you wanted to make yourself feel good again by claiming Christ in your life.

Glad to see you dropped you lying "we don't judge" attitude you were hiding behind while taking pop shots you couldn't back up. Now we can get down to business.

Only a small percentage are legitimate and don't try to interpret it/twist it into these new-religions that pop up everywhere.

That is why I took it back to the word.. something you could only hint at (and when you did, you got it shown where you were wrong when you paraphrased the "judge not" shill). The only true statement I have heard from you is that "we all sin".

Is that what you are, in a newly created religion that pop up claiming to be the true religion?

If you have a problem with Jesus's words, take it up with him. You are the one that has NOT once quoted anything. Wonder why, perhaps it is like you readily admit, you are not armed with the sword of the word ( or in your words "I don't know it"). Funny you sure had no problem talking like you did know it and only made yourself look... well... you guess.

Would you go to war for your religion, whatever it might be? Will you do that?

You are durn right I would... I am fighting right now to correct someone that likes to make it up as he goes. Would I pick up arms and fight, you durn right I would, and I wouldn't require a paycheck to do it either if it came down to it. Not saying those that work to defend our nation are wrong for taking a paycheck in a voluntary system, quite the opposite you should put your family's needs above most everything, but just saying our freedoms to worship Christ are worth fighting for above even money.

I do have issues with are "born-agains" such as you.

I have issues with people that misquote the Bible truths, so that makes up even. ... If you have issues with me, maybe it is because Jesus taught that ‘if they hated Me, they will hate you’" (see John 15:18-19; 17:14; Mat. 10:22; Luke 21:17). Simply an occapational hazzard I guess. No problem

Many of you have no room to talk as you are mainly talk and revisit "your transgressions" that made you so mad at your weakness/s that you wanted to make yourself feel good again by claiming Christ in your life.

Again, if you have a problem with Jesus, take it up with Him. I will not deny Him.. I am glad He is God Almighty and can wipe my filthy rag slate clean. But I will not attempt to change His word to justify sin for you or anyone else to not feel uncomfortable.

I've already went up against islam and this is my second go around. All to battle and fight for Orthodoxy and stop dead in its tracks, Islam.

I am proud you have/continue to serve this nation. I have supported our men and women in combat as long as I can remember. But don't expect me to give you a free ride when you misquote the Bible on it's meaning of moral issues.

What have you done for God in that sense besides "sitting fat" as you describe in your profile.

LOL, "sitting fat" ... again glad you have lost your "judge not" mentality. BTW.. you put up quotes, as if that was word for word from my profile, care to explain why you did that when it is your quote and not mine? I obviously have done something to make you burn enough to check my profile, but didn't think you would misquote it/me.

Are you an armchair soldier wannabe? All talk, no walk huhh.

Ahh, the last resort... the I am superior to you and don't you know it because of military service argument.... it does buy you some lead-way and is valid IMHO in some aspects.. but in this case, where the central issue is a debate over homosexuals in the army and specifically how that fits in context Biblically, the later you started via using your "not Christian" before I even entered the discussion. But are you going to use that for all arguments in the future where you can't win with facts, sorta a crutch.

Just now (not 10 minutes ago) an Air Force reservist came by, my wife does sewing projects for our soldiers for free (minus material cost).. She sewed a Velcro patch on where he could update his patch without buying a new uniform. It wasn't much, but it was free ($5.00 materials). We pray for our soldiers every day and ask God to protect them (His will be done), I am a canteen member and we play request for our soldiers every weekend.

This is my great uncle.

He also was a Christian... did he die so you could tell his family that the first amendment didn't apply to them? His other younger brother, (not my grandfather who had 3 children, including my mother was not drafted) was also drafted and lived through the war (photographer).. After the war in which Millard died, his younger brother returned. He took care of Millard's widow and eventually asked grandmother if it was OK to marry her. Grandmother got out the Bible and said "yes, it is OK". They knew where to find the truth, the same place you refuse to go when debating us, all while using the term "not Christian".

My uncle Lowry (Vietnam 4 years) and I keep pretty close contact with each other. Don't bother asking him what he thinks of gays in the military, he will tell ya.

Personally, I do wish I had my act more together at a younger age. I wasted a lot of my early 20's and perhaps the military would of been good for me. But then again, God had a plan for me and it has worked out quite well. I'll dig so far reaching into you and others that just "judged" me for that BS you spewed forth about how great Christ is.

How many times will you deny Him today. Three times before the cock crows? I once was there too, done that, been there.

God is someone you answer to, yes. I do pray that I return from my missions each day as I run the gauntlet daily.

I do also, every single day sir. My five y/o is fond of saying in his prayers (we do occasionally allow the children to lead prayers) , "protect the good guys, and help change the bad guys to good guys".

The original poster ridicules the grunts for bemoaning his attitudes as many are greater servants to God then he will ever be.

I will let the original poster answer it if he so pleases. I must admit I don't quite understand you statement, thus will wait for clarification before commenting.

What have you all done to defend God as we are in the midst of a modern day Crusade against Islam.

I have already answered your "your not worthy" part earlier. I am very proud of you and our men/women on the front lines also mentioned earlier. I believe in the right to disagree and to discuss issues of worth in a open forum. God needs no defense, per say, but just keeping the word clear from misquotation is my part of fighting the good battle.

I just disagree that homosexuals should be in our armed services. I have backed upped my reasoning via scripture when presented with "your not Christian" arguments (among others weaker arguments). Be glad to continue this discussion at your leisure via this forum or via FReepmail. I might even learn something hopefully.

Goodday sir.

LowOiL

274 posted on 07/28/2006 5:06:20 PM PDT by LowOiL ("I am neither . I am a Christocrat" - Benjamin Rush)
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To: LowOiL
Amazing you spent hours typing a post all for me, oil. I never dropped "judging" when it never occured. Your hot air does not mean squat when you write that you would defend Christianity...that is hilarious as i've heard many times over when people say things like that. They have a streak of yellow cowardice in them. Only the 'net makes the brave like you are.

Don't try using family members prior servicetime as a cop-out to not have ever served.

Besides, AF is not a "real, actual" military branch. Ever see them in action here in Iraq? They are laughing stocks where I am. AF Reservists? Oh my gosh, even worse!

I personally do not care if you can type out of the bible, that is just great hotshot. Can you preserve christianity by taking someones life (islamic terrorist for example) that wants to kill you for practicing christianity and propogating it to others? I don't think so, mac.

I've gone through the bible and read good portions of it but I don't memorize it nor write down scriptures. I am sure of and confidant of myself that my past transgressions/sins that I confess to God will all be forgiven.

By the way, I ride from one end of the former Yugoslavia (Croatia-Bosna-Serbia/Macedonia border) which covers over about 900 miles in 8 days or so to raise money for the Monastery in Kosovo for the Serbian Church. I've doing that since 2003 (except this year due to Iraq). So, I put my talk into action.

So,what do you do besides "type" your actions? Oh, did I mention that I'll be riding across the states too in a further attempt to raise money and publicity? Also, that muslims have attempted to do bad things to me while on the ride in southern Serbia and while inside of Kosovo? I'm not even including physical harm threats over the phone, emails etc... whewwwww! I can go on and on and on...

I'd put this up on my website but the service here is not "allowing' my file uploads and will have to do it when I'm on leave in over a month.

275 posted on 07/28/2006 8:10:40 PM PDT by ma bell ("Take me to Pristine. I want to see the "real terrorists", Former Marine)
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To: ma bell

http://www.snd-us.com/history/savich_kosovo-origins.htm


276 posted on 07/28/2006 10:37:37 PM PDT by LowOiL ("I am neither . I am a Christocrat" - Benjamin Rush)
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To: Lucky Dog
Sorry, I think the whole "good order and discipline" thing is a ruse.

If ignoring orders about sexual behavior was actually detrimental to good order and discipline, the tens of thousands of straight soldiers who are engaging in uninvestigated and unprosecuted oral and anal sex would clearly be creating a massive problem in the ranks. I'm glad you're willing to see those straight soldiers investigated and discharged, no matter what the cost to our ability to fight wars, but I respectfully submit we'd be much better off offically allowing all our soldiers, regardless of orientation, the privacy to have whatever sort of sex they want, provided it's in private and with consenting adults.
277 posted on 07/29/2006 8:40:47 AM PDT by kenboy
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To: kenboy
Sorry, I think the whole "good order and discipline" thing is a ruse.

Opinions without any bases in experience, fact or logic are worthless. You have failed to present any bases for you opinions which I hold to be error based upon my knowledge, direct experience and that of many others. If you wish to prove my assertion wrong, you must submit convincing evidence and irrefutable logic. To date, you have not done so.

In contrast to your unsupported opinions, I have cited relevant portions of the UCMJ on this thread along with statistics that back my opinions. It is not too much to ask you to do the same.

If ignoring orders about sexual behavior was actually detrimental to good order and discipline, the tens of thousands of straight soldiers who are engaging in uninvestigated and unprosecuted oral and anal sex would clearly be creating a massive problem in the ranks.

Cite your proof that tens of thousands of straight soldiers … are engaging in uninvestigated and unprosecuted oral and anal sex. If you have none, then your point is specious and should be ignored.

I'm glad you're willing to see those straight soldiers investigated and discharged, no matter what the cost to our ability to fight wars…

Thank you for the compliment on my consistency with the law. Nonetheless, I must ask how many years of military experience to you base this assessment on? Exactly what is the cost to our ability to fight wars and how do you calculate it?

… I respectfully submit we'd be much better off offically allowing all our soldiers, regardless of orientation, the privacy to have whatever sort of sex they want, provided it's in private and with consenting adults.

Your respectful submission has been noted and, after due consideration, disregarded as groundless. In fact, it is countered by the thoughtful deliberations of more than 400 members of Congress, thousands of commanders in decades of experience and innumerable citizens of the US. Consequently, I equally respectfully submit that you abandon your ill-informed and poorly considered opinion in favor of one based upon fact, logic and the experience of those better positioned to make such judgements than you.
278 posted on 07/29/2006 9:04:23 AM PDT by Lucky Dog
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To: Lucky Dog
Sorry, you're right. I pulled "tens of thousands" out of thin air. Now that I've googled for some numbers, I think I have to say "easily half a million" instead.

There are aproximately 1.4 million active duty military. (from Wikipedia. You can confirm with the census if you prefer.)

CDC reports that 90% of men 25-54 have had oral sex with a female; 40% have had anal sex with a female. Now, there's obviously no quick and easy way to make the numbers fit, but I see here that the average man in the Army is 28 years old, so he'd fit in that range. Now, of course, it's likely that the UCMJ makes some percentage of those men think twice before they allow a woman to perform oral sex on them, or before they engage in anal sex with a woman -- but I don't really don't know how much to discount the numbers. Do you think cutting them in half sounds fair? If we did that, and said 45% of them have had oral, we'd be looking at over 600,000 soldiers under investigation for engaging in oral sex.

Whatever the actual number, I think it's fair to say it's certainly a lot more than the number engaging in homosexual contact. Since they're both equally against regulations, and since our military continues to be the finest in the world, I fail to see where we have a order and discipline problem stemming from all this "unnatural carnal copulation."

Neither one of us is budging from our positions on this; let's just call it a day.
279 posted on 07/29/2006 10:31:58 AM PDT by kenboy
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To: ma bell
I never dropped "judging" when it never occured.

Your the one that said "I'm proud to be Orthodox and we do not judge people.".

Stop contridicting yourself.

Your hot air does not mean squat when you write that you would defend Christianity.

Jesus's words for the Bible is only hot air to those who hit rock bottom.

Don't try using family members prior servicetime as a cop-out to not have ever served.

When you stop waving it around like John Kerry, John Murtha or that Marine that parades around with Cindy Sheehan and holding their opinions at the same time. Military service doesn't give you one red cent on the battlefield of ideas. We are on the subject of homo's in the ranks of our military, you are for it to the point of calling those against you "unChristian", I am against it and have backed up why. You have been reduced to hiding like a liberal demo behind your military service. If being military is having to act like you, no thank you.

I personally do not care if you can type out of the bible, that is just great hotshot.

I personally don't care for you calling us "un-Christian" and being unable to prove it.

Besides, AF is not a "real, actual" military branch. Ever see them in action here in Iraq? They are laughing stocks where I am. AF Reservists? Oh my gosh, even worse!

Spit on them (your own fellow soldiers) if you want, just count me out. We do free military uniform repairs regardless if you like them or not. Odd you will do that, but those of us that point out rightfully that homosexuals are worse gains your wraith. Very telling.

I am sure of and confidant of myself that my past transgressions/sins that I confess to God will all be forgiven.

Just as sure as you are of homosexuals being OK and it is unChristian for pointing out their lifestyles are such.

So, I put my talk into action. whewwwww! I can go on and on and on...

While you go on and on and on, perhaps you can try to make a viable arguement along the way for those gays being in the Armed Forces.

280 posted on 07/29/2006 11:01:38 AM PDT by LowOiL ("I am neither . I am a Christocrat" - Benjamin Rush)
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To: ma bell
I would like to quote a small section I found in "The Savage Nation" by Michael Savage.

"Like decaying civilizations fo the past, America's fall will come from the decadence within and the security threats from without. Like them, we are bombarded by decadence and false causes in the headlines every day: we hear about racial profiling, gay and lesbian rights, racism and feminism, abortion rights and animal rights and guns and environment, as if there were no other issues in the country, or in the universe, for that matter. They have become the sunspots that blind us. It's like the insane beating of a drum that drives out all rational thought.
Racist monsters are trying to shake the pillars of this country. And from the outside there are repeated threats of atomic attacks. Can such a nation as this survive? Even Jesus observed, "Every Kingdom divided against itself will be ruined, and every city or household divided against itself will not stand" (Matt. 12:25 NIV)...

_____________________________________________

Do you care to call him "unChristian"? Perhaps "hotshot" for daring to quote from the Bible? Perhaps you want to challange Salvage him on his military record?

281 posted on 07/29/2006 11:24:38 AM PDT by LowOiL ("I am neither . I am a Christocrat" - Benjamin Rush)
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To: kenboy
Neither one of us is budging from our positions on this; let's just call it a day.

Sorry, I can’t let the discussion rest with such a grievous error. I currently earn my living (after retiring from military service) using statistics and statistical methods. From this expertise, I can tell you that based upon mathematical principles and practices, you have arrived at an incorrect conclusion based upon sampling error and false analogy.

Whatever the actual number [of service personnel engaging in prohibited heterosexual activity], I think it's fair to say it's certainly a lot more [service personnel] than the number engaging in homosexual contact.

It is equally certain, based upon statistics, that many more service personnel engage in petty theft than in murder. Nonetheless, I do not think you would maintain it was wise to remove the legal sanctions from either murder or petty theft. The analogy is consistent. Care to reconsider your remarks?

Since they're both [prohibited heterosexual activities and homosexual activities] equally against regulations, and since our military continues to be the finest in the world, I fail to see where we have a order and discipline problem stemming from all this "unnatural carnal copulation." .

It is beginning to appear that your reasoning ability is markedly impaired. While there are many issues tied to this point, including that of good order and discipline, you consistently fail to recognize that a single one completely destroys your position: that of blood borne pathogens and wounds. It is impossible to escape the fact that homosexual practitioners are the overwhelming carriers of this problem and that allowing them unfettered access to the military creates an unacceptable escalation in the risk to our fighting forces. The testing you have proposed as an alternative is unacceptable in terms of logistics and cost as well as its potential violation of Article 32 of the UCMJ.

Once, again, I respectfully call on you to abandon your ill-informed and poorly considered opinion in favor of one based upon fact, logic and the experience of those better positioned than you.
282 posted on 07/29/2006 11:32:30 AM PDT by Lucky Dog
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To: SmithL; AFA-Michigan; Abathar; AggieCPA; Agitate; AliVeritas; AllTheRage; ...
Homosexual Agenda Ping!

If you oppose the homosexualization of society
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To be included in or removed from the
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please FReepMail either DBeers or scripter.

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Military investigators wrote that Copas "engaged in at least three homosexual relationships, and is dealing with at least two jealous lovers, either of whom could be the anonymous source providing this information."

It is long past time to get rid of the don't ask don't tell leftist policy of delusion and go back to a reality based policy. Ask up front about those that are predisposed toward and or practice homosexual sexual activities...

283 posted on 08/01/2006 5:40:08 PM PDT by DBeers ()
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To: kenboy
To maintain "good order and discipline," do you believe that heterosexual soldiers who admit to having engaged in oral or anal sex with a member of the opposite sex, including, if they are married, their own wives, should be brought up on charges stemming from an Article 125 violation?

The topic involves specifically homosexual sex and in general the leftist attempt to normalize it and "homosexualize" society MUCH as you attempt to do with your argumenet which would be better suited to DU.

If you wish to advocate for a homosexual military THEN do so on DU.

284 posted on 08/01/2006 5:43:35 PM PDT by DBeers ()
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To: Rightwing Conspiratr1
I'd think any person who said, "Hi I'm gay and here to help." is psychotic.

LOL! For real!
285 posted on 08/02/2006 2:31:23 AM PDT by mrsmel (Men possess talent. Genius possesses men. Chocolate cravings possess women.)
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To: DBeers
The topic involves specifically homosexual sex and in general the leftist attempt to normalize it and "homosexualize" society MUCH as you attempt to do with your argumenet which would be better suited to DU.

If you wish to advocate for a homosexual military THEN do so on DU.


I have never seen so much trolling in one thread on Free Republic as I have in this one.
286 posted on 08/02/2006 2:58:58 AM PDT by mrsmel (Men possess talent. Genius possesses men. Chocolate cravings possess women.)
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Comment #287 Removed by Moderator

Comment #288 Removed by Moderator

To: absolootezer0

not really, my best friend is an arab language specialist, he seems to think that there are enough of them.

I guess that's why thousands of documents haven't been interpreted and new ones are just filed due to lack of personnel to handle them.


289 posted on 08/06/2006 4:41:57 PM PDT by Joan Kerrey
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To: little jeremiah

but much better is to weed them out during recruitment.

Yup, I'm with you dude!!!! Weed them out before they can interpret anything. That'll teach em.


290 posted on 08/06/2006 4:44:41 PM PDT by Joan Kerrey
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To: CSM

Would you be comfortable showering within 2 feet of a gay person of your sex?

If you're a secure and mature person it shouldn't be a problem. That person in the shower, 2 feet away, is the same person he/she was when they were outside the shower door. The only thing that changes is that you are aware that they're gay. If that's uncomfortable it would appear that you have a problem, not the gay person showering next to you especially if no attempt is being made to seduce you. An overt gesture would be out of place, gay or straight.


291 posted on 08/06/2006 4:50:41 PM PDT by Joan Kerrey
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To: TheSuaveOne
To think it is reasonable to have coed facilities for 18 year old hormonaly active people is insane.

There are many such places. They are called "colleges" and "universities."

292 posted on 08/06/2006 4:53:37 PM PDT by FreedomCalls (It's the "Statue of Liberty," not the "Statue of Security.")
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To: Tokra

The military does not need this queer in the ranks creating morale (or other) problems. Good riddance!

It's good to know we have people who are able to effectively prioritize national security issues.


293 posted on 08/06/2006 4:56:08 PM PDT by Joan Kerrey
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To: Red Badger
... A queer can be blackmailed for such to the detriment or even death of your fellow service members. Still feel that you couldn’t have been blackmailed? ... LOL, I thought this excuse went out in the 60s
294 posted on 08/06/2006 4:58:54 PM PDT by Joan Kerrey
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To: bigdcaldavis

Private Fudgepacker need not worry...the ACLU will (at least try to) save the day for him.

The last word (him) could very well be us rather than him.
But, if you feel it's better to purge gays out rather than interpret documents affecting national security I guess you know best.


295 posted on 08/06/2006 5:02:21 PM PDT by Joan Kerrey
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To: LowOiL
Uggg.. Obviously He DIDN'T keep his private life private as most homos can't. To me this is like putting a child molester in a room full of children.

nice to know who the ignorant bigots are...too bad there isnt a "ignore" function

296 posted on 08/06/2006 5:04:37 PM PDT by stuck_in_new_orleans
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To: SmithL

First they get the military to accept gays.
Will the homo's be satisfied with that?Hell no.


297 posted on 08/06/2006 5:13:13 PM PDT by philetus (Keep doing what you always do and you'll keep getting what you always get.)
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To: Joan Kerrey

Your promotion of homosexuality is transparent.

I have no interest in debating with phonies. Go promote the inclusion of sexual deviants in the military elsewhere.


298 posted on 08/06/2006 10:10:36 PM PDT by little jeremiah
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To: Joan Kerrey
The military does not need this queer in the ranks creating morale (or other) problems.

And just how does having men AND women working together in the ranks NOT cause the same morale problems? After all - one soldier lusting after another is going to cause problems - the gender of the soldiers is immaterial. Should we kick out all the females in the military?

299 posted on 08/07/2006 6:31:34 AM PDT by Tokra (I think I'll retire to Bedlam.)
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To: Tokra
WOmen and men should not be sharing quarters in the military. They should have separate units, train separately etc just the way they did in the past.

Uni-sex military is a bad idea, homosexuals in the military even worse.
300 posted on 08/07/2006 8:51:59 AM PDT by little jeremiah
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