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New ways to break the law! (are you a criminal? Probably)
http://www.theadvocates.org ^ | Bill Winter

Posted on 02/18/2006 1:46:55 PM PST by freepatriot32

click here to read article


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To: Gordongekko909
Thanks. BTW, I've really enjoyed chatting with you on this thread. People who can think clearly and communicate well are rare.
121 posted on 02/18/2006 7:58:43 PM PST by null and void (before the darkness there's a moment of light, when everything seems so clear)
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To: freepatriot32

This sounds like Soviet Russia.


122 posted on 02/18/2006 7:59:41 PM PST by Mulder (“The spirit of resistance is so valuable, that I wish it to be always kept alive" Thomas Jefferson)
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To: Gordongekko909

this entire thing is academic anyway since we both seem to admit that jury nullification can't be prevented.

####

Nullification could be prevented by allowing judicial review of jury verdicts. It could also be specifically banned by law. Of course, that would fly in the face of the expressed intent of the Founding Fathers.


123 posted on 02/18/2006 8:02:14 PM PST by SUSSA
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To: SUSSA
My point exactly. If it were illegal to nulify jurors could be charged for doing it. They have a just claim to the power, it is legal, it is a right.

Jurors can't be charged with this because there is no way to prove it. And the jurors themselves wouldn't be prosecuted, by the way; it's been common-law doctrine for centuries that jurors are not to be prosecuted for anything they do in the rightful capacity as jurors. If a jury were found to have engaged in nullification, the result would be the overturning of their verdict as null. And even that would carry its own slew of double jeopardy issues.

Jurors are called upon to make decisions. Trying to prove that they made a given decision by using a certain rationale is tantamount to attempting to prove a thoughtcrime. This isn't your average state-of-mind issue, either: the result that a jury reached is one that they can legitimately reach. Juries are not held to their results. This isn't like negligence or premeditation. You actually have an objectively viewable red flag in criminal or tort cases that use those concepts.

A prohibition on jury nullification would be impossible to enforce and so can't really be made illegal. It is therefore recognized as a power, albeit one to be exercised under the radar. But it has no legal sanction whatsoever, and therefore cannot be recognized as a right.

124 posted on 02/18/2006 8:02:29 PM PST by Gordongekko909 (I know. Let's cut his WHOLE BODY off.)
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To: null and void

Heh. Thanks. I could do this all day.


125 posted on 02/18/2006 8:04:03 PM PST by Gordongekko909 (I know. Let's cut his WHOLE BODY off.)
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To: Gordongekko909
It is not a mistake that lawyers are proportionately misrepresented in lawmaking bodies, throughout the land.Lawyers, per se, have richly deserved the anger and loathing they receive.
126 posted on 02/18/2006 8:06:52 PM PST by Thumper1960 (The enemy within: Demoncrats and DSA.ORG Sedition is a Liberal "family value".)
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To: Gordongekko909
Jurors can't be charged with this because there is no way to prove it.

Ummmm, I thought the whole point of jury nullification was at that point when the Foreman stood up and said, "Your Honor, we of the jury find that this law is unconstitutional and is hereby declared null and void."

Thereby freeing society from the burden of an unfair law, not merely releasing one victim of that law, and leaving the rest of us exposed the the whims of our local 'betters"...

127 posted on 02/18/2006 8:09:22 PM PST by null and void (before the darkness there's a moment of light, when everything seems so clear)
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To: Gordongekko909
Look around this thread and you'll find plenty of authority explicitly refuting this.

Certainly the perception of jury nullification went downhill after the establishment of the Constitution, and especially after the Civil War. Opposition of laws imposed by an overseas monarch was seen rather more favorably than opposition of laws passed locally. At the time the Constitution was ratified, however, the ability of juries to act as a check on government was viewed as a good thing.

To be sure, jury nullification has some severe problems:

  1. It can undermine laws which are in fact necessary to promote justice.
  2. It introduces a substantial element of randomness into the criminal justice system, when consistency is generally necessary for good justice.
It is much better to stop bad legislation via the ballot box than the jury box, but even the jury box is better than the one remaining alternative.
128 posted on 02/18/2006 8:11:36 PM PST by supercat (Sony delenda est.)
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To: SUSSA
There's already a procedural device for this: judgment non obstante veredicto. But it relies completely on a weighing of the evidence, not an examination of the jury's rationale in coming to whatever decision they came to.

And the standard for rendering a JNOV is high enough that it pretty much never happens, and when it does, it happens in civil suits. Basically, if the jury came to a decision, based on the evidence, that a reasonable person could come to in the capacity of a trier of fact, their verdict will not be disturbed. When you factor in the reasonable doubt standard that the prosecution already has to overcome, it becomes clear that a reasonable jury could find someone not guilty in pretty much any criminal case.

Even in civil suits, where the standard of proof is a mere preponderance, JNOV is used very sparingly, and is usually accompanied by a new trial, not a simple reversal. The odds of a JNOV being granted in that second trial, if a second jury comes to the same conclusion, is so small as to be negligible.

129 posted on 02/18/2006 8:12:10 PM PST by Gordongekko909 (I know. Let's cut his WHOLE BODY off.)
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To: null and void
If you think that the idea of nine appointed judges being able to thwart the will of the majority is bad, think about the idea of twelve randomly selected citizens being able to do the exact same thing.

If the foreman did that, the verdict would be tossed out. This is why jury nullification happens under the radar. That's the only way it can happen. And when it happens like that, it can't be proven.

130 posted on 02/18/2006 8:16:06 PM PST by Gordongekko909 (I know. Let's cut his WHOLE BODY off.)
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To: supercat
It introduces a substantial element of randomness into the criminal justice system, when consistency is generally necessary for good justice.

That's a laugh.

No one's life liberty or property are safe as long as court is in session.

131 posted on 02/18/2006 8:19:16 PM PST by null and void (before the darkness there's a moment of light, when everything seems so clear)
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To: supercat
It is much better to stop bad legislation via the ballot box than the jury box, but even the jury box is better than the one remaining alternative.

If a jury finds a law unjust and wishes to acquit anyone charged under it, there is really no way to stop them as long as they don't tell anyone what they're doing. But a judge declaring a law void is a pretty serious matter already, and explicitly throwing this power into the nigh-uncheckable province of the jury is just asking for trouble.

And putting additional checks on juries to counter the above problem is asking for even more trouble.

132 posted on 02/18/2006 8:19:55 PM PST by Gordongekko909 (I know. Let's cut his WHOLE BODY off.)
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To: Thumper1960

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1547547/posts


133 posted on 02/18/2006 8:21:09 PM PST by Gordongekko909 (I know. Let's cut his WHOLE BODY off.)
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To: Gordongekko909

A prohibition on jury nullification would be impossible to enforce and so can't really be made illegal.

####

As stated above, nullification could be stopped by allowing judicial review. The courts have ruled jury nullification is legal. The congress has not tried to stop it by law or Constitutional amendment.


134 posted on 02/18/2006 8:22:10 PM PST by SUSSA
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To: Thumper1960

By the way, is a lawyer somehow better able to get elected to public office than anyone of another profession? If so, you may want to blame The People for electing them.


135 posted on 02/18/2006 8:22:24 PM PST by Gordongekko909 (I know. Let's cut his WHOLE BODY off.)
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To: SUSSA

See #123.


136 posted on 02/18/2006 8:23:38 PM PST by Gordongekko909 (I know. Let's cut his WHOLE BODY off.)
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To: freepatriot32
In Burlington, Vermont, police are ticketing people for not removing keys from the ignition and locking their cars. Police said the state law prevents car thefts. Violators are fined $79.

OMG that is ridiculous. It looks like these municipalities are trying to make money the easiest way possible.

137 posted on 02/18/2006 8:24:13 PM PST by lawgirl (Cake is a powerful food!)
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To: SUSSA

Durr, make that 124.


138 posted on 02/18/2006 8:24:14 PM PST by Gordongekko909 (I know. Let's cut his WHOLE BODY off.)
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To: SUSSA

I'm on a mistake-making rampage, aren't I? Make that 129.


139 posted on 02/18/2006 8:24:50 PM PST by Gordongekko909 (I know. Let's cut his WHOLE BODY off.)
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To: Gordongekko909

In criminal cases in the U.S., only the defendant (and not the prosecution) may move for a J.N.O.V.


140 posted on 02/18/2006 8:25:40 PM PST by SUSSA
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