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Evolution Suffers Kansas Setback
BBC ^ | 9 Nov 2005 | Staff

Posted on 11/09/2005 6:32:26 AM PST by Our_Man_In_Gough_Island

The US state of Kansas has approved science standards for public schools that cast doubt on evolution. The Board of Education's vote, expected for months, approved the new language criticising evolution by 6-4.

Proponents of the change argue they are trying to expose students to legitimate scientific questions about evolution.

The Kansas decision came as voters in Pennsylvania replaced all eight school board members who approved a similar policy in some of the state's schools.

Since October 2004, schools in Dover, Pennsylvania, have been obliged to read out a prepared statement on intelligent design in biology classes.

Teachers have been ordered to tell pupils that Darwin's theory of evolution is unproven, and that the universe is so complex that it may have been created by a higher power.

Last month parents in Dover sued the school board, accusing it of introducing religion and creationism into schools, in breach of the US constitutional separation of church and state.

Definition of science

Tuesday's vote in Kansas was the third time in six years that the Kansas board has rewritten standards with evolution as the central issue.

Current state standards treat evolution as well-established, a view held by national science groups.

We are all for intelligent design being discussed, but we do not want to see it in biology class

The new standards include several specific challenges, including statements that there is a lack of evidence or natural explanation for the genetic code, and charges that fossil records are inconsistent with evolutionary theory.

It also states that says certain evolutionary explanations "are not based on direct observations... and often reflect... inferences from indirect or circumstantial evidence".

"This is a great day for education," board chairman Steve Abrams told the Reuters news agency.

Decisions about what is taught in Kansas classrooms will remain with 300 local school boards, but the new standards will be used to develop student tests measuring how well schools teach science.

Educators fear pressure will increase in some communities to teach less about evolution or more about creationism or intelligent design.

'Theory, not science'

In Dover, the first US district to introduce intelligent design into schools, new school board members are thought likely to repeal the policy.

"We are all for it being discussed, but we do not want to see it in biology class," said Judy McIlvaine, a new board member.

"It is not a science."

The case against the intelligent design policy was heard in a federal court case which ended last week.

A verdict is expected early next year.


TOPICS: Culture/Society; News/Current Events; Philosophy; US: Kansas; US: Pennsylvania
KEYWORDS: astrologyisnext; bibleidolatry; canceronconservatism; creationism; crevolist; evolution; kansas; scienceteaching; shamanism
I am personally more interested in this event as a news item than with regard to the philosophies of science that underly the new law.
1 posted on 11/09/2005 6:32:28 AM PST by Our_Man_In_Gough_Island
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To: Our_Man_In_Gough_Island
"This is a great day for education," board chairman Steve Abrams told the Reuters news agency.

Yeah, for the education of the countries that are competing agaisnt us on the world stage it sure is.

2 posted on 11/09/2005 6:35:22 AM PST by RogueIsland
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To: Our_Man_In_Gough_Island

Kansas, home to the three most mis-named towns. Garden City, Goodland and Liberal.


3 posted on 11/09/2005 6:44:44 AM PST by Leg Olam ("There is no Hell. There is only France." F. Zappa)
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To: Our_Man_In_Gough_Island

The sad thing is that a that so called learning institutions have to be ordered to even consider all options


4 posted on 11/09/2005 6:47:33 AM PST by apackof2 (There are 2 theories to arguing with a woman... neither works. Will Rogers)
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To: apackof2
learning institutions have to be ordered to even consider all options

Yes, all part of the conspiracy. Why don't they teach about the Flat Earth Theory? Or the Humours Not Germs Theory of disease?


5 posted on 11/09/2005 6:50:41 AM PST by orionblamblam ("You're the poster boy for what ID would turn out if it were taught in our schools." VadeRetro)
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To: orionblamblam

That a ludicrous but predictable response from the usual suspects


6 posted on 11/09/2005 6:57:40 AM PST by apackof2 (There are 2 theories to arguing with a woman... neither works. Will Rogers)
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To: apackof2

> That a ludicrous but predictable response

Perhaps you'de prefer the teaching of "Welcome to the Matrix Theory?"


7 posted on 11/09/2005 6:58:49 AM PST by orionblamblam ("You're the poster boy for what ID would turn out if it were taught in our schools." VadeRetro)
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To: orionblamblam

Seems to me that I did learn about that stuff when I was in school, along with alchemy. But I was also taught why it was no longer believed and given the scientific proofs for it. Same can be done here.


8 posted on 11/09/2005 7:00:30 AM PST by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: orionblamblam

"Why don't they teach about the Flat Earth Theory?"

I wouldn't mind that at all, as long as they are showing just what kind of 'nuts' the Flat Earthers are.

Kids are not stupid. No matter what you try to feed them.


9 posted on 11/09/2005 7:12:58 AM PST by Bigh4u2 (Denial is the first requirement to be a liberal)
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To: metmom

> But I was also taught why it was no longer believed and given the scientific proofs for it. Same can be done here.

*Can*, yes. *Will* they teach why science has long since rejected the silliness of Creationism? Given that the explicit purpose behind these shenanigans is to wedge religion into the classroom... I rather doubt it.


10 posted on 11/09/2005 7:16:03 AM PST by orionblamblam ("You're the poster boy for what ID would turn out if it were taught in our schools." VadeRetro)
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To: orionblamblam

By not covering creationism in schools, it appears that they can't prove it's wrong. Nobody is expecting creation to be taught as science, but it is going to come up in class anyway. Even if the teachers don't address it, the students probably will. Everyone knows about the controversy and science's best defense would be to have some good answers.


11 posted on 11/09/2005 7:19:25 AM PST by hyperkitty (The ability to speak does not make you intelligent, now get out of here.)
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To: Our_Man_In_Gough_Island
Kansas Suffers Evolution Setback
12 posted on 11/09/2005 7:19:27 AM PST by dr_lew
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To: Bigh4u2
I wouldn't mind that at all, as long as they are showing just what kind of 'nuts' the Flat Earthers are.

Will they be showing what kind of 'nuts' these Fundies are? Especially since these Fundies control the funds? (and since the Fundies use the same Everything You Need To Know About The Physical Universe Handbook as many of the Flat-Earthers?)

Kids are not stupid. No matter what you try to feed them.

Really? Hmmm...


13 posted on 11/09/2005 7:19:43 AM PST by orionblamblam ("You're the poster boy for what ID would turn out if it were taught in our schools." VadeRetro)
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To: hyperkitty
By not covering creationism in schools, it appears that they can't prove it's wrong.

By not covering Norse creationism in schools, it appears that they can't prove it's wrong.


14 posted on 11/09/2005 7:22:00 AM PST by orionblamblam ("You're the poster boy for what ID would turn out if it were taught in our schools." VadeRetro)
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To: orionblamblam
OK, so you're an Athiest.
Thanks for sharing.
15 posted on 11/09/2005 7:31:04 AM PST by Psalm 73 ("Gentlemen, you can't fight in here - this is the War Room".)
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To: orionblamblam

You post 965.25 KB worth of crap and I'm supposed bow to your intellect? Go Big bang yourself.


16 posted on 11/09/2005 7:32:26 AM PST by bluecollarman
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17 posted on 11/09/2005 7:32:38 AM PST by Michael_Michaelangelo (The best theory is not ipso facto a good theory. Lots of links on my homepage...)
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To: orionblamblam

Attacking someone's credibility by attacking their character or questioning their intelligence, is no "proof" that they are wrong. If science doesn't have a better defense than that, they are in trouble. Shouldn't they be using facts instead?


18 posted on 11/09/2005 7:32:52 AM PST by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: Junior

Archival ping.


19 posted on 11/09/2005 7:38:34 AM PST by PatrickHenry (Reality is a harsh mistress. No rationality, no mercy)
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To: Psalm 73

> OK, so you're an Athiest.

Errr. WRONG. Thanks for sharing.


20 posted on 11/09/2005 7:40:30 AM PST by orionblamblam ("You're the poster boy for what ID would turn out if it were taught in our schools." VadeRetro)
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To: PatrickHenry

Gracias.


21 posted on 11/09/2005 7:42:19 AM PST by Junior (From now on, I'll stick to science, and leave the hunting alien mutants to the experts!)
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The CrevoSci Archive
Just one of the many services of Darwin Central
"The Conspiracy that Cares"

CrevoSci threads for the past week:

  1. 2005-11-09 Dover CARES sweeps election (Intelligent Design loses big)
  2. 2005-11-09 Evolution Suffers Kansas Setback
  3. 2005-11-08 RATE research reveals remarkable results—a fatal blow to billions of years (Evolution loses)
  4. 2005-11-08 "The ""Vatican"" Endorses ""Darwin""? [""Vatican"" has done no such thing"
  5. 2005-11-08 Kansas education board downplays evolution
  6. 2005-11-08 Down for the Count (Sleep & Evolution)
  7. 2005-11-08 Kansas State Board Approves Teaching Standards Skeptical of Evolution
  8. 2005-11-08 Math problems too big for our brains
  9. 2005-11-08 Bloodthirsty 'Vampire' Spider Found
  10. 2005-11-08 Federal lawsuit could follow board vote [Evolution in Kansas & Dover]
  11. 2005-11-07 [Kansas] Board Votes on Evolution (Tomorrow, NOV 8 - Teaching I.D. to be approved!)
  12. 2005-11-07 An Evolutionist's Evolution [Huge exhibit at Museum of Nat. History, NYC]
  13. 2005-11-07 Prehistoric skull found in dump may be missing common ancestor of apes & humans
  14. 2005-11-07 Good genes beat good homes as guide to pupils’ school Success
  15. 2005-11-07 Kennewick Man, Meet Your Distant Cousins
  16. 2005-11-07 Evolution in the bible, says Vatican
  17. 2005-11-07 A pope for our times: why Darwin is back on the agenda at the Vatican
  18. 2005-11-06 Evolution Is in the Air
  19. 2005-11-06 (Pennsylvania) Dover heads list of contested local races
  20. 2005-11-06 African cousins behind extinction of Indians 70,000 years ago!
  21. 2005-11-06 (Pennsylvania) Dover First Re-elect our school board
  22. 2005-11-06 Intelligent Design or Mindless Evolution
  23. 2005-11-06 Science as Kansas sees it
  24. 2005-11-05 The Case of Behe vs. Darwin
  25. 2005-11-05 Can biology do better than faith?
  26. 2005-11-05 Do space aliens have souls? Inquiring minds can check Jesuit's book
  27. 2005-11-05 Adult Stem Cells May Be Just Remnants Of Evolution
  28. 2005-11-04 'Intelligent design' trial set to conclude [at last]
  29. 2005-11-04 Is science driven by inspired guesswork?
  30. 2005-11-04 Shaped from clay [origin of life]
  31. 2005-11-03 Vatican Cardinal Says We Should Listen to Science
  32. 2005-11-03 Science versus scientism
  33. 2005-11-03 The Specter of Difference
  34. 2005-11-03 Origin of board decision probed [Dover Evolution trial, 03 Nov]
  35. 2005-11-03 Scientists See Light that May Be from First Objects in Universe
  36. 2005-11-03 Bees solve complex colour puzzles (Bees solve puzzles computers can't - maybe they're designed!)

CrevoSci Warrior Freepdays for the month of November:
 

2000-11-10 AncientAirs
2000-11-21 AndrewC
1998-11-18 angelo
1999-11-22 Blood of Tyrants
2003-11-26 blowfish
2004-11-08 CarolinaGuitarman
1997-11-28 cd jones
2001-11-30 claptrap
2001-11-16 CobaltBlue
2002-11-21 DannyTN
2004-11-16 DaveLoneRanger
1997-11-30 Ditto
2001-11-16
dmz
2000-11-11 Ernest_at_the_Beach
2000-11-02 Exit 109
2000-11-22 FFIGHTER
2000-11-12 ForGod'sSake
2001-11-07 FourtySeven
2000-11-10 Godel
2004-11-06 GreenOgre
2000-11-04 harbinger of doom
2000-11-28 HiTech RedNeck
1999-11-05 Ichneumon
1998-11-13 jennyp
1998-11-25 Junior_G
2002-11-17
Just mythoughts
2004-11-11 kaotic133
2003-11-18 little jeremiah
1998-11-18 malakhi
2000-11-19 Mike Fieschko
2000-11-06 mrjeff
1999-11-05 muleskinner
2003-11-17 Nathan Zachary
2002-11-12 NCLaw441
1999-11-25 Nebullis
2000-11-13 NYer
2000-11-24 old-ager
2004-11-03 PajamaHadin
2000-11-10
Patriotic Teen
1998-11-01 Pharmboy
2000-11-11 P-Marlowe
2000-11-16 presidio9
2002-11-14 Remedy
2000-11-30 Right Wing Professor
2004-11-18 rightwinggoth
1998-11-15 rob777
1998-11-04 RobRoy
1999-11-16 TerP26
2000-11-04 TigerTale
2004-11-11 untrained skeptic
2000-11-05 will of the people
2003-11-29
woodb01

In Memoriam
Fallen CrevoSci Warriors:


ALS
angelo
Area Freeper
Aric2000
Askel5
biblewonk
bluepistolero
churchillbuff
claptrap
codebreaker
Con X-Poser
ConservababeJen
DittoJed2
dob

Ed Current
f.Christian
followerofchrist
general_re
goodseedhomeschool
gopwinsin04
gore3000
IllumiNOTi
JediGirl
JesseShurun
JethroHathaway
jlogajan
Justice Avenger
Kevin Curry

kharaku
knowquest
Le-Roy
malakhi
Marathon
medved
metacognative
Modernman
n4sir
NoKinToMonkeys
Ogmios
peg the prophet
Phaedrus
Phoroneus

pickemuphere
ret_medic
RickyJ
SeaLion
Selkie
Shubi
Tomax
tpaine
Truth666
twittle
Unalienable
WaveThatFlag
xm177e2

Bring back Modernman and SeaLion!


Lost CrevoSci Battlefields (Pulled Threads)


Longest CrevoSci Thread Ever


Glossary of Terms

Assumption: Premise: a statement that is assumed to be true and from which a conclusion can be drawn; "on the assumption that he has been injured we can infer that he will not to play"
Belief: Any cognitive content (perception) held as true; religious faith
CrevoCreation vs. evolution
CrevoSciCreation vs. evolution/Science
CrevoSci Warriors:  Those who take part on CrevoSci threads
Data: factual information, especially information organized for analysis or used to reason or make decisions
Dogma: a religious doctrine that is proclaimed as true without proof
Fact: When an observation is confirmed repeatedly and by many independent and competent observers, it can become a fact
Freepday:  The day a Freeper joined Free Republic
Hypothesis: A tentative theory about the natural world; a concept that is not yet verified but that if true would explain certain facts or phenomena; "a scientific hypothesis that survives experimental testing becomes a scientific theory"; "he proposed a fresh theory of alkalis that later was accepted in chemical practices"
Impression: A vague idea in which some confidence is placed; "his impression of her was favorable"; "what are your feelings about the crisis?"; "it strengthened my belief in his sincerity"; "I had a feeling that she was lying"
Law: A generalization that describes recurring facts or events in nature; "the laws of thermodynamics"
Observation: Any information collected with the senses
Theory: A well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world; an organized system of accepted knowledge that applies in a variety of circumstances to explain a specific set of phenomena; "theories can incorporate facts and laws and tested hypotheses"; "true in fact and theory"


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official beer
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22 posted on 11/09/2005 7:46:19 AM PST by Junior (From now on, I'll stick to science, and leave the hunting alien mutants to the experts!)
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To: Our_Man_In_Gough_Island
Kansas has approved science standards for public schools that cast doubt on evolution.

Corrected version:

Kansas has approved science standards for public schools that cast doubt on Kansas.

23 posted on 11/09/2005 7:46:58 AM PST by Coyoteman (I love the sound of beta decay in the morning!)
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To: metmom

> Attacking someone's credibility by attacking their character or questioning their intelligence, is no "proof" that they are wrong.

You know, the same thing is said every time a "Christian" coems on FR and declares that evolutionists are "God haters" or Liberals some such similar drivel.

> If science doesn't have a better defense than that, they are in trouble.

Who says science doesn't? The problem is that in this case, science is up against entreched dogma with easy answers. Sciecne has been up against such before, and has often temporarily lost. Science lost to the Greek Pythagorean mystics, to the early Church, to the Commies, to the Nazis, to the Muslims. Being factually right is no sure defense against being politically incorrect.

> Shouldn't they be using facts instead?

"They" are. Evolution has a mountain of evidence supporting it, from physics to genetics to paleontology to even astronomy... and it has nothing standing against it except for religious faith.

But as the Parisians are discovering, religious faith often trumps reason.


24 posted on 11/09/2005 7:47:41 AM PST by orionblamblam ("You're the poster boy for what ID would turn out if it were taught in our schools." VadeRetro)
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To: orionblamblam

Then what's the point of stating that Flat Earthers and Fundies are "nuts"? That's name calling. Why call them names?


25 posted on 11/09/2005 7:55:38 AM PST by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: metmom

> Then what's the point of stating that Flat Earthers and Fundies are "nuts"?

Well... what would *you* call someone who looks at a square and declares that it's a circle? Even after a century and a half of piling up evidence from many fields that a square is in fact a square and not a circle?


26 posted on 11/09/2005 8:00:33 AM PST by orionblamblam ("You're the poster boy for what ID would turn out if it were taught in our schools." VadeRetro)
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To: orionblamblam

"Wrong"


27 posted on 11/09/2005 8:08:26 AM PST by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: Our_Man_In_Gough_Island

There was a time when there was no matter in the universe but there never was a time when there was nothing in the universe...otherwise nothing would exist now.


28 posted on 11/09/2005 8:30:27 AM PST by Mogollon
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To: metmom

There comes a point when someone transcends being merely wrogn to being crazy. Comign to an incorrect conclusion due to insufficient data is one thing. Insisting on an incorrect conclusion in the face of overwhelming evidence is somethign else entirely.


29 posted on 11/09/2005 8:34:04 AM PST by orionblamblam ("You're the poster boy for what ID would turn out if it were taught in our schools." VadeRetro)
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To: orionblamblam
"OK, so you're an Athiest."
"Errr. WRONG."

Sooo, you believe in God, but that He is just not smart enough to design a human being?

30 posted on 11/09/2005 9:01:02 AM PST by Psalm 73 ("Gentlemen, you can't fight in here - this is the War Room".)
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To: Our_Man_In_Gough_Island

Great! Another lawsuit about to begin.


31 posted on 11/09/2005 9:02:54 AM PST by <1/1,000,000th%
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To: Psalm 73
Sooo, you believe in God, but that He is just not smart enough to design a human being?

My god is smart enough to start the whole ball spinning and allow the galaxies, stars, chemicals and organisms to develop as a matter of course. Your god is a fussy tinkerer who couldn't get it right the first time and had to keep jumping in to fix things: a rib here, an apple there.

32 posted on 11/09/2005 9:07:47 AM PST by blowfish
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To: blowfish
"My god is smart enough to start the whole ball spinning...."

Ah yes - smart but not personal, one who cares not a whit about His creation?
And He created all of this for........?

33 posted on 11/09/2005 9:27:30 AM PST by Psalm 73 ("Gentlemen, you can't fight in here - this is the War Room".)
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To: Psalm 73

I don't presume to fully understand the Mind of God.


34 posted on 11/09/2005 9:29:25 AM PST by blowfish
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To: Psalm 73

"And He created all of this for........?"

Because it was good. It says that in Genesis everytime He gets done creating something. And then when He gets done creating man; it's "very good". I don't believe that God went through all the effort to create and just abandon it. What would be the point in that? If He wasn't actively involved with His creation and didn't care about it, then why would He have gone to all the trouble of telling mankind about Himself by having it written down? That doesn't sound like not caring to me.


35 posted on 11/09/2005 9:37:01 AM PST by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: Psalm 73

> He is just not smart enough to design a human being?

Well, according to your thinking, apparently not. Since he went through many prototypes and then abandoned them.

Of course, a Christian (or Jew, or Muslim, or whatever) who didn't want to be an ill-educated boob would recognize that any deity smart/powerful enough to create a universe from scratch could order it via natural laws, and throw in evolutionary processes to make it a better and more beautiful place than some static painting. ANd given the evidence, that's certainly what appears to have happened.

So.

Are you one of those who believes that the evidence of genetics and paleontology and physics and astronomy are tricks that your God is playing on you?


36 posted on 11/09/2005 10:07:09 AM PST by orionblamblam ("You're the poster boy for what ID would turn out if it were taught in our schools." VadeRetro)
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To: Our_Man_In_Gough_Island
It also states that says certain evolutionary explanations "are not based on direct observations... and often reflect... inferences from indirect or circumstantial evidence".

Yeah, that's the same reasoning the OJ Simpson jury used to reject the "indirect or circumstantial evidence" indicating his guilt.

37 posted on 11/09/2005 11:30:01 AM PST by steve-b (A desire not to butt into other people's business is eighty percent of all human wisdom)
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To: orionblamblam
"....according to your thinking, apparently not. Since he went through many prototypes and then abandoned them."

No, God created man in His image.
Genetics gives evidence of a common ancestor for human beings.
Despite all of the science focused on this idea of evolution originating from a common inanimate object in the oceans - we have NEVER witnessed one species turning (or even beginning to turn) into something completely different.
All of the changes we can witness are WITHIN species.
You say that you believe in God? Well why not believe that God created us just as we are - seeing there is no hard evidence to support us comming from something else - (a jaw bone here, a femur there - and they deduce from that that hundreds of thousands of sub-humans roamed the earth?)
Oh, we could go on, but this gets so tedious - what whith those fragile secular egos and all......

38 posted on 11/09/2005 11:38:29 AM PST by Psalm 73 ("Gentlemen, you can't fight in here - this is the War Room".)
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To: Psalm 73
no hard evidence to support us comming from something else - (a jaw bone here, a femur there - and they deduce from that that hundreds of thousands of sub-humans roamed the earth?)

And these are just a few of the more photogenic specimens. Enjoy.

Figure 1.4.4. Fossil hominid skulls. Some of the figures have been modified for ease of comparison (only left-right mirroring or removal of a jawbone). (Images © 2000 Smithsonian Institution.)


39 posted on 11/09/2005 12:15:21 PM PST by Coyoteman (I love the sound of beta decay in the morning!)
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To: Psalm 73

> Genetics gives evidence of a common ancestor for human beings.

And chimps. And gorillas. And dogs, cats, rats, salamanders, fish, worms...

> Despite all of the science focused on this idea of evolution originating from a common inanimate object in the oceans - we have NEVER witnessed one species turning (or even beginning to turn) into something completely different.

Nice strawman.

> All of the changes we can witness are WITHIN species.

Factually inaccurate. Do a search on "observed speciation."

> You say that you believe in God?

Did I?

> Well why not believe that God created us just as we are

Because that's not what the evidence of the natural world shows. To believe what you suggest would mean that God is a liar and a scumbag trickster. Is that your God?


40 posted on 11/09/2005 12:17:08 PM PST by orionblamblam ("You're the poster boy for what ID would turn out if it were taught in our schools." VadeRetro)
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To: Coyoteman
"And these are just a few of the more photogenic specimens."

And they KNOW that we are directly descended from them because?
They are all positively linked in a chain because?
I think there are a LOT of assumptions going on here - and perhaps a little wishfull thinking.

41 posted on 11/10/2005 4:00:27 AM PST by Psalm 73 ("Gentlemen, you can't fight in here - this is the War Room".)
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To: orionblamblam
Well, your condesending "answering a question with a question" went like this

"You say that you believe in God?"
"Did I?"

Um, well the opposite of not believing is believing, (the exchange went like this): :
"...so you're an Athiest.[?]"
"Errr. WRONG."

"To believe what you suggest would mean that God is a liar and a scumbag trickster."

You are WAY too insulting and nasty to try and have a civil discussion with - are you like this with all who disagree with you?
It's certainly ONE way to end a discussion.

42 posted on 11/10/2005 4:19:31 AM PST by Psalm 73 ("Gentlemen, you can't fight in here - this is the War Room".)
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To: hyperkitty
By not covering creationism in schools, it appears that they can't prove it's wrong.

Well, first of all, I'm glad someone on the creationism side has dropped the ridiculous fig leaf of a term known as "ID" and decided to be up front about what she wants taught in the schools. That's refreshing, and at least it weeds out the Xenu fans and those who claim a role for Galactus in world events.

Second of all, however, one must ask, what theoretical framework do creationists espouse that would result in falsifiability criteria? If your "theory's" sole answer to every inquiry is that "well, it's that way because God did it and it's a miracle and we can't know the mind of God" then of course no one can prove the theory wrong.

43 posted on 11/10/2005 4:34:13 AM PST by RogueIsland
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To: Psalm 73

I'm sorry that you are confounded by someone who defeats your false dichotomy worldview.



>>"To believe what you suggest would mean that God is a liar and a scumbag trickster."

>You are WAY too insulting and nasty to try and have a civil discussion with

No, I'm not... I'm just honest. In your worldview, God set up the world specifically to look old and life to look evolved. This is trickery.


44 posted on 11/10/2005 6:57:26 AM PST by orionblamblam ("You're the poster boy for what ID would turn out if it were taught in our schools." VadeRetro)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 42 | View Replies]

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