Posted on 05/06/2004 5:11:22 PM PDT by E Rocc
My heart goes out to Rumsfeld and Pres. Bush for what they are going through. As if, they don't have enough to worry about.
Oh, by the way, stop following me. I don't want people to talk.
I'm not "following" you at all. You've plastered these "torture" threads with so many replies that it is difficult to read any of them without responding to some of them.
Why would people talk? You got a complex?
And if you're trying to imply that I'm gay then you need some psychological help with your transference problems.
"War" by it's very definition is "barbaric." War isn't about "compassion." It's about ruthlessly tearing the heart out of your enemy -- that way his will is broken.
Am I saying we should NOT follow a code of conduct? No.
But one soldier's "barbarism" is another one's "preserving liberty," and "valued interrogation" that saves lives.
Would you maintain that at NO time should the line of "interrogation" be crossed? Even if it means American deaths are possible?
The danger of the hysteria out there is totally out of proportion -- I refuse to now turn over every rock, enter into a witch hunt, and have all 200,000 of this man's Army interviewed for "questionable" code infractions. That's where all of this ranting and raving is leading. Is this a plan you would advocate?
6 people out of 250,000 fragged out and crossed the line and dehumanized the enemy for whatever reason. There's probably several more, but some folks had the good sense to keep it bottled up and dealt with internally for the sake of the corps.
"BS? BS? These are corroborated incidents, backed up with photographic and video evidence. Oh, I forgot...you follow the Clinton style of defense."
That is "BS" as in hyped-up, over-blown, and over-exaggerated charges of torture.
"Abuse and humiliation" is NOT "torture," nor do I believe it merits 2 weeks of the front page, or 11:00's lead news stories.
And UNTIL you have "corroborated incidents, backed up with photographic and video evidence" of real torture -- IOW, maiming and murder JUST for kicks -- then it is YOU who is engaging in Clinton-style offense.
American Soldiers, in war as well as peacetime, must follow orders and adhere to the UCMJ. We can do all you suggest to the enemy WITHOUT violating everything we hold dear as decent people. Whether you like it or not, the military has regulations and laws it MUST follow, in part so we are NOT seen as barbarians by our own countrymen OR by the world we operate in.
"Would you maintain that at NO time should the line of "interrogation" be crossed? Even if it means American deaths are possible?"
Of course not. Interrogation to extract critical information under controlled circumstances is NOT what this is about. That is done with such methods as drugs or other, non-abusive means. I had no issues with the Colonel who had to interrogate an Iraqi who had information vital to saving his men. You'll note, he DID NOT strip the man naked and shove a broomstick up his rectum, nor did he take photographs to show his buddies at the "O" club later. You're comparing apples and oranges, here.
"That is "BS" as in hyped-up, over-blown, and over-exaggerated charges of torture."
Funny how the President, the SecDef, both sides of the Congressional aisle, the Joint Chiefs of Staff, and most active-duty Officers and Enlisted disagreed considerably, after the evidence was presented to them.
I challenge YOU to undergo all of the things in the Pentagon reports and NOT then call it torture. I underwent some of them in a training environment and I can say without hesitation that it was, as it was meant to be.
"Am I saying we should NOT follow a code of conduct? No."
That is exactly what you advocate. You did so, actually, in the next sentence. After the "BUT".
""Abuse and humiliation" is NOT "torture," nor do I believe it merits 2 weeks of the front page, or 11:00's lead news stories."
Actually, it is part of the definition of torture. Also, as you must now know, it went FAR beyond that. It doesn't matter that YOU don't think it's a big deal. It IS. And it will go a lot further. Most decent people most certainly DO think that it is a "big deal" that the entire military has been disgraced by these slobs. That includes, in fact, most of the military itself.
"And UNTIL you have "corroborated incidents, backed up with photographic and video evidence" of real torture -- IOW, maiming and murder JUST for kicks -- then it is YOU who is engaging in Clinton-style offense."
That corroboration exists, and was detailed i n the Pentagon report that you apparently forgot to read, the charges filed, and in the photographs and videos that shocked and sickened the President, SecDef, and everyone else who saw them that is in the Chain Of Command. More are to be forthcoming that are even WORSE. Oh, yeah, and murder was mentioned in the report, as was rape.
Sorry, but blaming the Soldiers who did their duty in reporting violations of the UCMJ and the Geneva Conventions for the acts of the perpetrators, blaming the press for reporting it, and denying the evidence are precisely the Clintonian tactics YOU are using. Do you TRULY not see this? I assure you, it is obvious to anyone who looks.
I notice that you STILL have not answered my question as to your own military experience. I do not ask that question lightly, or often of people here, but your continued advocacy of Soldiers ignoring orders and the UCMJ necessitates it, as does your apparent lack of concern for the results of these revelations.
"Everything"??
Again you're inventing a position I don't represent.
Yes, the military has regs, and so does law enforcement. Have some cops or those in the military -- as well as in this case as well -- been in situations where they've considered looking the "other way" despite those regs? It's a tough call, but I suppose there's a point where ALL ramifications must be considered -- whether it's right OR wrong. Thus far, has the reporting of the said incident outweighed the damage inflicted now, and into the future? OR is that a fair question?
Now as far as being "seen as barbarians" -- it's not so bad a reputation as a fighting force. Quite frankly, if Americans and the rest of the world are going to come away with the precept of "barbarians" for the ENTIRE US military from this one incident, then they are ALL seriously delusional or idiots.
"I had no issues with the Colonel who had to interrogate an Iraqi who had information vital to saving his men. You'll note, he DID NOT strip the man naked and shove a broomstick up his rectum, nor did he take photographs to show his buddies at the 'O' club later."
No, but YOU'LL note he WAS in violation of codes of conduct, and was reprimanded severely. And this DESPITE saving the lives of his men. In any case even you have your "gray" area of what's considered acceptable "interrogation."
"Funny how the President, the SecDef, both sides of the Congressional aisle, the Joint Chiefs of Staff, and most active-duty Officers and Enlisted disagreed considerably, after the evidence was presented to them."
Lol -- what did you expect with the spotlight on? The President and Rummy to shake their heads dismissively and say, "It was bad, but it didn't look like torture"?
"I challenge YOU to undergo all of the things in the Pentagon reports and NOT then call it torture. I underwent some of them in a training environment and I can say without hesitation that it was, as it was meant to be."
"Torture" is subjective -- is it not? In the context of a war prison, IMO it's clearly abuse, but let the hard evidence of eyewitnesses speak for itself, and the circumstances of which said abuses occurred.
"Also, as you must now know, it went FAR beyond that. It doesn't matter that YOU don't think it's a big deal. It IS. And it will go a lot further. Most decent people most certainly DO think that it is a "big deal" that the entire military has been disgraced by these slobs. That includes, in fact, most of the military itself."
Why are you ready to hang these people WITHOUT an investigation?? Let the evidence come forth, THEN skewer my behind IF you're right (no pun intended).
I REFUSE to be part of the hyenas who can't wait to associate the word "disgraced," with that of the ENTIRE military because of the acts of the 6 charged.
"You apparently forgot to read, the charges filed, and in the photographs and videos...and murder was mentioned in the report, as was rape."
YOU apparently missed my telling you: I READ IT.
But you still don't get it. This is a war that has involved hundreds of thousands of people for over a year. Sh*t was going to happen, just as it has since the days of the Continental Army.
The actions of a miniscule few do NOT speak for the thousands serving honorably, nor am I about to pretend this is the first time military misconduct of prisoners has EVER taken place during wartime. IMO, the PRIMARY reason this incident has struck such an emotional chord is SOLEY because the offenses have been photographed and caught on video, AND because prisoner "abuse" has also been so d*mn rare.
Of course not. But the fact is, that EVERY active duty member I've talked to, both on this site, others, and at my own squadron certainly DOES view this as torture, and holds it deplorable.
"I REFUSE to be part of the hyenas who can't wait to associate the word "disgraced," with that of the ENTIRE military because of the acts of the 6 charged."
Your perogative, sir. I happen to AGREE that we all should not be tarred with the same brush. However, I also know, as do we all, that when one of us commits an outrageous act, it tends to do just that. It is why the vast majority of us are so embarrassed by this, and it is also why we take great care to conduct ourselves to the high standards the American people expect from us. It is also why these idiots face their strongest denouncers and hatred from within the military itself.
""Torture" is subjective -- is it not?"
Not if you undergo it. it can be mental or physical, and this was both, in spades. Plus, it was done for reasons totally detached from any military necessity. If someone undergoing it does not consider it torture, I really want to meet him (maybe not).
"Why are you ready to hang these people WITHOUT an investigation?? "
The investigation has already been completed, and its findings are damning to them.
" YOU apparently missed my telling you: I READ IT."
Then why did you just maintain that no investigation had been done?
"The actions of a miniscule few do NOT speak for the thousands serving honorably, nor am I about to pretend this is the first time military misconduct of prisoners has EVER taken place during wartime. IMO, the PRIMARY reason this incident has struck such an emotional chord is SOLEY because the offenses have been photographed and caught on video, AND because prisoner "abuse" has also been so d*mn rare."
We have agreement here. I would add that the reason that abuses are so rare is because the vast majority of honorable Soldiers DO follow their orders, keep to the UCMJ and Geneva, and are basically decent human beings. However, I and many other servicemen are glad that this was discovered and investigated, and that the animals who did it will be punished. It would have been far worse if such things occurred and were ignored or not dealt with by higher authority. If our country simply ignored them or excused them, what would that say about us OR our cause?
The report indicates a unit that was seriously disfunctional, from its commanding general down to its Enlisted members. It seems that a "perfect storm" of incompetence, ineptness, and truly sick individuals caused this. Instead of blaming those who DID do their duty with honor, isn't it far better now to figure out just HOW such incompetent Officers were placed in positions of authority (I suspect during Slick's PC fest in the '90s, but I can't prove it), and how such depraved NCO's and grunts managed to enter the Service in the first place, and do what they did without ANY notice from above, until it was too late?
Blame the media? Doubtless they are loving this, but we KNOW they are given to that sort of thing, and have been seeking a My Lai from this war since its inception. All the more reason for Soldiers NOT to hand them what they want on a silver platter. Blame the Soldiers who did their duty and reported it? Nonsense. The fact is, IT'S OUT, and now we need to fix the problems that led to it.
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