Pope wants new international order to keep peace

Reuters | January 1, 2004 | Claire Soares

[HAL9000]

VATICAN CITY, Jan 1 (Reuters) - The world needs a "new international order" to solve its conflicts and ensure peace, Pope John Paul said in his New Year's Day address on Thursday.

The ghosts of 2003 -- when the United States invaded Iraq without United Nations approval -- dominated the pope's first speech of 2004.

"More than ever we need a new international order which draws on the experience and results of the United Nations," the 83-year-old pontiff said at a mass in St Peter's Basilica.

"An order which is capable of finding adequate solutions to today's problems, based on the dignity of human beings, on integrating all society, on solidarity between rich and poor countries, on the sharing of resources and the extraordinary results of scientific and technological progress," he added.

Speaking at Christendom's largest church, the pope urged people not to lose hope of finding peace in the Holy Land, which the Vatican feels is vital to winning the war on terror.

"The land in which Jesus was born sadly continues to live in a dramatic condition. And in other parts of the world sparks of violence and conflict have not been extinguished either. But we need to persevere and not bow to the temptation of losing hope."

Turning to Africa, the pope paid tribute to his Burundi ambassador, Michael Courtney, killed on Monday in an ambush the army has blamed on rebels who have refused to join a peace process to end a 10-year conflict.

"(He) was tragically killed...while he was going about his mission of promoting dialogue and reconciliation. We pray for him and hope his example and sacrifice will bear the fruits of peace in Burundi and the world," the pope said.

The leader of the world's one billion Catholics, who suffers from Parkinson's disease that makes it difficult for him to talk, seemed alert and read all of his homily in a clear voice.

But it is unclear what 2004 holds for him. For the first time since his election in 1978, the pope enters the new year with no firm plans for travel, although there have been some invitations.

He was particularly weak on his last foreign trip, a visit to Slovakia in September, when aides had to read most of his addresses for him.

[onyx]

The TROLL is been given the ZOT.

[razorbak]

The Bible is clear that there will be wars until the end of time. Peace will not come on earth until the Prince of Peace comes to earth. In fact, the Bible even teaches that wars and impending wars will increase in frequency and intensity just before Christ returns.

(Mat 24:6 KJV) And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. (Mat 24:7 KJV) For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. (Mat 24:8 KJV) All these are the beginning of sorrows.*

*The word sorrows is translated from the Greek word meaning "labor pains." Labor pains increase in frequency and intensity as the time of birth draws near.

Those who will control the last final attempt at "one world government" will be the ones who are allied with the Antichrist.

[DeepDish]

After my previous post I checked CAtholic Family Association's page. It appears that his account has been suspended. Did he draw zot ealier and has since been restored or did the mods just now shoot the guy in the back.

[onyx]

I had been reading along, (reading sinkspur's excellent comments) and just when I had "had it" with the troll, ZOT it was gone.

[endthematrix]

"The UN is a debating society and its predecessor, the League of Nations, fail(ed) on the big issues."

I wouldn't sweep away the UN yet. It is a pebble in your shoe that one day will render you lame. Some visualize world peace, I see world police.

[Bluntpoint]

You jump in. You shout "basher!"

You then exercise your moral vanity by long, tiresome posts that no one reads.

You then take your leave because you are late for Mass.

Ten people email me declaring you to be one of the biggest blowhards and want-to-be bullies on FR.

Then I go back to my farm work.

Nothing very fearsome.

[G.Mason]

"Speaking for yourself?"

Not being a politician, or a religious leader, I never speak for anyone else. ;)

[ninenot]

Yeah. It was damn fortunate for us that Luther, Zwingli, et al, invented physics, mathematics, and metaphysics.
/sarcasm

[Bluntpoint]

Enter at your own risk of damnation!

[ninenot]

Cap'n, you ask whose side Sinky is on...

You're gently kidding him, of course. Sinky is a pure anti-nomian--one who resists and resents authority. Another model (far more depraved than Sinky) is Rembert Weakland, still acting like the syphilitic Worm here in Milwaukee.

Sink could also be described as a knee-jerk "patriot,"--one of those to whom America is right, no matter what--except that Sink's major arguments are usually fought on moral fields.

He despises Right Order, in brief.

[RiflemanSharpe]

With all due respect to his Holiness, the Americans and the British already have that covered. After more then a decade of doing very little to control terrorism. We have decided to hunt them down an take them out.

[ninenot]

It is worth noting that Cap'n is used to the utilization of force, including deadly force, in his daily occupation--and seems to be recalcitrant about using it.

Sinky, on the other hand, is an IT industry guy with a Seminary background--no military (or at least he hasn't talked about it.)

Hmmmmmmm.

[ninenot]

On another thread, a poster who had lived in Egypt for a number of years and who, as a result, spent solid time in a number of MidEastern countries, summarized thus:

'The Middle East does NOT have a middle class....there are the very rich and the very poor...'

JPII seems to understand this, perhaps because his knowledge of the world is a little better than yours.

Think about that possibility--that JPII's information sources are better than yours.

[sinkspur]

'The Middle East does NOT have a middle class....there are the very rich and the very poor...'

What does this have to do with anything?

[sinkspur]

Sinky, on the other hand, is an IT industry guy with a Seminary background--no military (or at least he hasn't talked about it.)

This seems to be some sort of snide ad hominem that has nothing to do with anything.

[sinkspur]

He despises Right Order, in brief.

More ad hominems. WRONG ad hominems to boot.

[sinkspur]

Dr. Kopp apparently got himself banned, AGAIN.

The boy just can't behave himself, it appears, even for a few hours.

[GirlShortstop]

Dr. Kopp apparently got himself banned, AGAIN.

Sink perhaps you will explain this please:  when I click on his CAtholic Family Association name, it pulls up his [blank] about page, on which the FR links work.  There's not a "banned notice" that I've found.

[Cap'n Crunch]

Good morning.

I got knocked off line last night after my last post.

I'd like to thank the good Doctor (although it would appear he has been 'zotted') for expressing the way I feel about the situation with his posts.

I believe that if we do not listen to the Holy Father's message we will be living in a worldwide condition like we see in Israel/Palestine.

I also believe that we here in the United States need to look in the mirror and see what we are becoming and change it. If we don't then we won't need the Muslims to continue terrorism against us, we will self destruct. We do live in, and the Holy Father named it, a culture of death. Christianity is under attack in this country and hedonism is rampant.

The front page of the newspaper in my city today showed the first baby of '04. Illegitimate. The rate here in my city of illegitimacy is over 50%.

2004 ought to be very interesting.

[DallasMike]

See #519 t cure your ignorance as to he auto-da-fe.

See the dictionary to cure yours:

Noun 1. auto-da-fe - the burning to death of heretics (as during the Spanish Inquisition)

[sinkspur]

I believe that if we do not listen to the Holy Father's message we will be living in a worldwide condition like we see in Israel/Palestine

We already do. Militant Muslims have declared that they will push us all into the sea, and destroy our way of life, as the Palestinians have threatened to the Israelis.

We will not, and cannot allow that, no matter what the Pope says.

[Desdemona]

There's another article, this one from Zenit, posted on the religion forum, that has a different set of quotes. It seems the Holy Father is more interested in an order, not an international body. It seems to say that the experience of the UN is a failure and that we need to take the lessons learned, good and bad, and use them as a guide.

JPII is NOT advocating a strengthening of the UN.

[Cap'n Crunch]

Well then, let's not play anymore games, continue the attack, let's go into Syria, then North Korea, China & Russia.

Let's roll. No more half-hearted efforts we've always been noted for.

You think President Hillary will be up to the task?

[Cap'n Crunch]

I can't imagine people taking the Holy Father's words out of context to suit their own agenda......(heavy sarcasm)

[Desdemona]

From Zenit, 1-1-04

New International Order Urged for Sake of Peace

Pope Says Temptation to Mistrust Must Be Overcome

VATICAN CITY, JAN. 1, 2004 (Zenit.org).- John Paul II started the new year by insisting that peace is "possible" and thus a "duty," and he called for a new international order.

That was the focus of the Pope's homily today at the Mass to celebrate the solemnity of the Mother of God. The Church also marked World Day of Peace.

The Holy Father concentrated on the need to teach peace, an issue he highlighted in the first year of his pontificate. "Given that peace is possible -- I wish to repeat -- it is a duty," he explained in St. Peter's Basilica.

"In the face of situations of injustice and violence that oppress various areas of the planet, in the face of the permanence of armed conflicts frequently forgotten by public opinion, it is ever more necessary to build together paths of peace," the Pope said. "Therefore, it is indispensable to teach peace."

He said it is particularly necessary to teach peace in the land where Jesus was born, which, "unfortunately, continues to live in dramatic conditions."

"It is necessary, however, to persevere without yielding to the temptation to mistrust," the Holy Father added. "An effort is necessary on the part of all to have the fundamental rights of people respected through constant education in lawfulness."

"With this objective, everything possible must be done to overcome the logic of strict justice in order to open also to that of forgiveness. In fact, there is no peace without forgiveness," the Pope said.

Commenting on the international scene, the Holy Father explained that there is an ever-greater need for "a new international order, which will make use of the experience and results obtained in these years by the United Nations."

He called for such "an order that will be capable of giving solutions that are appropriate to the problems of today, based on the dignity of the human person, the integral development of society, solidarity between rich and poor countries, and the capacity to share the resources and extraordinary results of scientific and technological progress."

Ambassadors of countries accredited to the Holy See attended the Mass, which was presided over by the Holy Father and celebrated by Vatican Secretary of State Cardinal Angelo Sodano.

[sinkspur]

JPII is NOT advocating a strengthening of the UN.

What he wants is an "order" that will guarantee that countries will not be able to act in their own self-interest. He and Howard Dean wanted the US to "get permission from the UN" before invading Iraq.

JPII had no problems with the UN when Clinton was in power, even when it didn't OK Clinton's foray against Milosevic because he SUPPORTED the bombing of Serbia.

But now, "order" has broken down because he doesn't support Bush's actions.

The UN is feckless, and the US has exposed its fecklessness by ignoring it.

The results are starting to come in (Iraq liberated, Ghadaffi giving up WMDs, the Sudanese civil war coming to an end), and it is hard to see how any of this would have happened if things had been left to the UN.

[Cap'n Crunch]

'No peace without forgiveness'

"The fruit of abortion is nuclear war."-Mother Teresa

[GirlShortstop]

We will not, and cannot allow that, no matter what the Pope says.

When the message is read, we find:

In the necessary fight against terrorism, international law is now called to develop legal instruments provided with effective means for the prevention, monitoring and suppression of crime. In any event, democratic governments know well that the use of force against terrorists cannot justify a renunciation of the principles of the rule of law.

[sinkspur]

Well then, let's not play anymore games, continue the attack, let's go into Syria, then North Korea, China & Russia.

We don't have to. Just watch what happens with Syria this year. Assad is already scared to death, as we are about to impose sanctions on his country.

We invaded Iraq so we wouldn't have to invade the rest.

[saradippity]

When did the Pope support the bombing of Serbia? I did a Google search and could not find anything that indicatd he supported it.I went through about 18 pages but I may have used the wrong key words. Please give me a cite. Thanks.

[GirlShortstop]

Just watch what happens with Syria this year

In 2003, I watched that country serve as an accomplice many times over in the murders of our brave in Iraq.

[GirlShortstop]

Please give me a cite. Thanks.       good luck saradippity!
FReegards.

[Cap'n Crunch]

How hard do you think it's going to be for them to wait until another democrat is in office? I say we have to strike now, Bush will have 4 more years, he had better rid the world of all WMD's in that time or we'll be back to square one.

President Clinton didn't listen to the Pope either, particularly on abortion. And, the UN wanted to throw the Vatican out. The Holy Father, in his letter, said that the UN was a failure.

I think we need to remember that we are fighting not against flesh and blood, but against powers and pricipalities.

But we're having too much fun engaging in hedonism.

[sinkspur]

I'd rather emphasize the following:

In the necessary fight against terrorism, international law is now called to develop legal instruments provided with effective means for the prevention, monitoring and suppression of crime. In any event, democratic governments know well that the use of force against terrorists cannot justify a renunciation of the principles of the rule of law.

"International law" is fuzzy nothingness. And, besides, it's the United States that has to enforce this "international law" when the bad guys get out of control.

And terrorism is not crime. It's war!

[GirlShortstop]

And terrorism is not crime. It's war!

And how do you justify America standing on the sidelines then over the "war" in Israel?

[GirlShortstop]

"International law" is fuzzy nothingness.

LOL!

[Cap'n Crunch]

Hang on now. It seems to me that we (under the evil Clinton administration) GAVE our nuclear secrets to China and North Korea. Is that right?

Being a former Marine, I was pretty upset when the Commandant of the Marine Corps was ordered to go over to China and help them with their beach assault capabilities. I even wrote the Commandant a letter. I got back a response from his office; "The Commandant thanks you for your letter." That was it.

And aren't those countries going to fund our enemies, as they do now? With weaponry? And probably money.

This country has two faces. One wants to suddenly stamp out terrorists (when they attack us, but world be damned if they hadn't) and one that sends our nuclear and military capabilities to our enemies who will be too eager to use them against us.

And now we want to blame the Pope for calling for peace. LOL hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

[sinkspur]

And how do you justify America standing on the sidelines then over the "war" in Israel?

We aren't standing on the sidelines; we're hamstringing Israel.

If we'd step back, Israel would take care of its terrorist problem, once and for all.

[Cap'n Crunch]

I guess we are Israel's "Pope." If we'd just stop talking about peace Isreal could whack those Palestinians once and for all.

They better get every one of them though because that's what it will take. Every man, woman and child.

Fry 'em! 'Blood makes the grass grow' What's the spirit of the bayonet? KILL KILL KILL.

Ah, my Marine Corps days are coming back to me. Semper Fi!

[Happy2BMe]

This is pretty scary stuff.

The pope stands up in broad daylight and announces to the world we need a "New International Order" to bring peace to the world.

We need a new international order, new world military, world currency, world political system, new world religion, and new WORLD LEADER.

[Happy2BMe]

This is pretty scary stuff.

The pope stands up in broad daylight and announces to the world we need a "New International Order" to bring peace to the world.

We need a new international order, new world military, world currency, world political system, new world religion, and new WORLD LEADER.

[Desdemona]

Oh, my you seem to know an awful lot.

I don't believe he said anything against acting in the interest of the whole world, which, whether they want to bekieve it or not, is what we are going.

[ninenot]

Response to all of your insolent queries is fruitless, Sink. Your advocacies are well-enough known by all here. No point belaboring the obvious.

That said, there actually IS such a thing as International Law.

And it does NOT cover terrorists.

War, as you may recall from Theo 201, is a State-to-State item, not "terrorist-to-State." The International Law does not adequately cover terrorism in any way, shape, or form--like certain other things (e.g., homosexual marriage) it's never been a matter for consideration until recently.

Get on line with reality, Sink. Your continuous deriding of the Pope is just a little too much, especially when combined with your jingo-ism.

BTW, those of us acquainted with the use of deadly force are NEVER advocates of its utilization. That's the "point" of my post earlier. You will find that's a very consistent position from ALL graduates of West Point who have achieved more than field-grade officer status.

[Desdemona]

Uh, once upon a time, there was a world currency. It was called gold.

[ninenot]

Oh, yeah--Israel would do something...

And if they got in over their head? Are you prepared to bop over and join the IDF?

Better get some target practice in with a full-auto, Sink.

The REASON we hamstring Israel is to keep OUR troops from having to save their butts, which is a highly likely scenario.

While I respect the IDF (and the Mossad) there's far too many ways for them to get into deeeeeeeeeep water over there, almost all of them calling for US intervention.

That's ANOTHER reason that JPII said what he said (not what you would have us BELIEVE he said, along with the editors of Reuters and The Guardian.)

[ninenot]

Ahhh--you jarheads aren't that tough. I used the same lines in Army BCT about the bayonet...

[Desdemona]

The REASON we hamstring Israel is to keep OUR troops from having to save their butts, which is a highly likely scenario.

...otherwise there wouldn't be anyone left for an Israeli state.

[Cap'n Crunch]

Please. I distintcly remember Pesident Bush 1 stating many times over and over that we needed a "New World Order," on national TV.

[Cap'n Crunch]

LOL... sharpen yours up and start practicing, we may need them.

[Cap'n Crunch]

Now I have to go to work. bummer