Pope wants new international order to keep peace

Reuters | January 1, 2004 | Claire Soares

[HAL9000]

VATICAN CITY, Jan 1 (Reuters) - The world needs a "new international order" to solve its conflicts and ensure peace, Pope John Paul said in his New Year's Day address on Thursday.

The ghosts of 2003 -- when the United States invaded Iraq without United Nations approval -- dominated the pope's first speech of 2004.

"More than ever we need a new international order which draws on the experience and results of the United Nations," the 83-year-old pontiff said at a mass in St Peter's Basilica.

"An order which is capable of finding adequate solutions to today's problems, based on the dignity of human beings, on integrating all society, on solidarity between rich and poor countries, on the sharing of resources and the extraordinary results of scientific and technological progress," he added.

Speaking at Christendom's largest church, the pope urged people not to lose hope of finding peace in the Holy Land, which the Vatican feels is vital to winning the war on terror.

"The land in which Jesus was born sadly continues to live in a dramatic condition. And in other parts of the world sparks of violence and conflict have not been extinguished either. But we need to persevere and not bow to the temptation of losing hope."

Turning to Africa, the pope paid tribute to his Burundi ambassador, Michael Courtney, killed on Monday in an ambush the army has blamed on rebels who have refused to join a peace process to end a 10-year conflict.

"(He) was tragically killed...while he was going about his mission of promoting dialogue and reconciliation. We pray for him and hope his example and sacrifice will bear the fruits of peace in Burundi and the world," the pope said.

The leader of the world's one billion Catholics, who suffers from Parkinson's disease that makes it difficult for him to talk, seemed alert and read all of his homily in a clear voice.

But it is unclear what 2004 holds for him. For the first time since his election in 1978, the pope enters the new year with no firm plans for travel, although there have been some invitations.

He was particularly weak on his last foreign trip, a visit to Slovakia in September, when aides had to read most of his addresses for him.

[BlackElk]

If the aggressive set among the Luther come latelies can successfully resolve to avoid their ritual Catholic-bashing, there will be no opportunity or reason to bash Catholic-bashers. I am not whining. I am simply giving better than I get.

BTW, most of what you think you know about the Inquisition is wrong. Lorraine Boettner and Bibi Netanyahu's dad are liars separated only by their respective "faith commitments."

Be thankful. Without Catholicism's guaranteed persistence, what reason could there be for Protestants to be Protestant. Protestantism: the anti-Catholicism creed.

[NeoCaveman]

Be thankful. Without Catholicism's guaranteed persistence, what reason could there be for Protestants to be Protestant. Protestantism: the anti-Catholicism creed.

You can't have Protestantism without the Protest.

Luther come latelies, I like it.

[BlueNgold]

Umm ... can anyone say .. Knights Templar??

[desertcry]

You are right on, the Pope's perspective on the whole Iraq issue is highly skewed. He has totally ignored the liberation of the Iraqi people from the cruelty of saddam.

[Matchett-PI]

"And just how is the Pope proposing to enforce his idea of a non-sovereign, communistic utopia?? Quite frankly, this man is dangerous."

A potential danger to the rest of us (given the right circumstances), is:

[1] Any tyrannical (top-down) mentality who would claim to be the sole, and final spokesperson for God in spiritual matters.

[2] Anyone who actually believes that it's true.

America's Framers didn't. That's why we got a Republic - a bottoms up form of government, undergirded by an impartial rule of law (not by the fluctuating, changing rules of biased, partial men).

[Bluntpoint]

Thank God for liberals, for there would be no Conservatives.

Conservatisim: the anti socialist-liberal creed.

[BlackElk]

Some answers. The legislators that I listed are the protectors of the SCOTUS status quo which has resulted in 45 million sliced, diced and hamburgerized innocent infants. So, I think anything the Inquisition might offer to them in return would be mild by comparison. All they would have to do to avoid justice would be to stop pretending to be Catholic. The Church has a right to vindicate her good name. That right transcends any "right" of the named miscreants to play make-believe.

Cardinal Ximinez was not associated with Opus Dei. Cardinal Ximinez was a Grand Inquisitor in Spain as was Fr. Tomas de Torquemada, O. P.

I am a Knight of Columbus but I do not belong to Opus Dei. I have enjoyed two of Opus Dei retreats. I do admire their work. Opus Dei was founded by then Monsignor and now Saint Jose Maria Escriva who survived the slaughter of more than 50% of Spain's priests by the communists, and anarchists in the Spanish Civil War in which Francisco Franco did what had to be done to restore civilization.

Both Freeh and Hansen apparently belong or belonged to Opus Dei. Hansen's treason no more discredits all of Opus Dei than it discredits all of the FBI. I am interested in but do not understand Louis Freeh. It should be difficult for a member of Opus Dei to rationalize being a Democrat. I kept waiting for him to drop the other shoe on the Arkansas Antichrist and Janet Waco but it never happened.

The DaVinci Code has been heartily and gushily endorsed by the Hildebeast. As though that were not enough, I have heard no praise for it from any respectable source and regard it (without having read it) as apparently one more anti-Catholic fantasy. I am open to contrary opinions, not having read it.

[cebadams]

Protestantism: the anti-Catholicism creed.

Why not -- Protestantism: the Catholic lite creed? It's just so much easier to be Protestant. No worries.

[BlackElk]

Likewise, I am very sure.

[BlackElk]

Happy New Year! May God bless you and yours.

[BlackElk]

As Tom Hanks said in Sleepless in Seattle: She looks like my Third Grade Teacher. Wait, She IS my Third Grade teacher.

[BlackElk]

Your reformed comments are also free game for criticism when directed at Jesus Christ's Vicar on earth. Quit your own whining.

[MississippiMan]

I fully realize the staggering bias of the media--it was in fact a front line of the battle in which liberals seized control of this country--but there's a limit as to how much they can twist quotes like these from the pope. He clearly made a pro-UN-one-worldesque statement here, and it doesn't much matter who reports it.

MM

[BlackElk]

Quite evidently the heart and soul of your faith is hatred of Rome. We are proud to regard you as opposition. You have seen the YOPIOS box, I trust.

[Bluntpoint]

I am a Knight of Columbus

Which one is you?

[cebadams]

He clearly made a pro-UN-one-worldesque statement here, and it doesn't much matter who reports it.

I just don't see it -- the pro-UN-one-worldesque statement. Please point it out.

[MississippiMan]

"More than ever we need a new international order which draws on the experience and results of the United Nations," the 83-year-old pontiff said at a mass in St Peter's Basilica.

"An order which is capable of finding adequate solutions to today's problems, based on the dignity of human beings, on integrating all society, on solidarity between rich and poor countries, on the sharing of resources and the extraordinary results of scientific and technological progress," he added.

---

If you don't see that as a pro-UN-one-worldesque statement, then we're unlikely to agree on much of anything.

MM

[Bluntpoint]

Please point it out.

"More than ever we need a new international order which draws on the experience and results of the United Nations," the 83-year-old pontiff said at a mass in St Peter's Basilica.

[cebadams]

I'll just repost what I posted way back on #273:

The U.N. is a complete and utter failure, a "new order" implies something other than an existing order. So we see here that JPII is in essence advocating for an international coalition (NOT the UN) to combat terrorism and bring pease to the middle east.

An order that can find solutions to today's problems; i.e., a coalition of forces to combat international terrorism. Maybe something just like this one:

The Proliferation Security Initiative reflects the need for a more dynamic, active approach to the global proliferation problem. It envisions partnerships of states working in concert, employing their national capabilities to develop a broad range of legal, diplomatic, economic, military and other tools to interdict threatening shipments of WMD and missile-related equipment and technologies.

A new order that produces results just like this one: U.S. find led to Gadhafi decision.

Hard not to agree with this message.

The U.S. cannot go it alone. Some coalition will exist. That coalition will not be the U.N.

[Bluntpoint]

The Pope was against us going to war with Iraq.

The U.N. failed to stop us.

The Pope wants a new and improved U.N. to stop us in the future.

[cebadams]

The Pope wants a new and improved U.N. to stop us in the future.

The posted article does not say that. And doing a quick google search I find no statements or other articles that support your point.

And who is the "us" that you refer to? I hope you are referring to the 30 some counties that comprise the Iraq coalition.

[Bluntpoint]

Pope: War Threatens Fate Of Humanity

VATICAN CITY, March 22, 2003







(AP) Pope John Paul II on Saturday denounced the war against Iraq as threatening the "fate of humanity" in his first public comments on the U.S-led attacks.

"When war, as in these days in Iraq, threatens the fate of humanity, it is ever more urgent to proclaim, with a strong and decisive voice, that only peace is the road to follow to construct a more just and united society," John Paul said. "Violence and arms can never resolve the problems of men."

The pontiff said that peace is "a gift of God and a humble and constant achievement by men."

John Paul, with impassioned speeches and Vatican diplomacy, lobbied against war and in favor of a negotiated solution in the months before the conflict.

He made his remarks Saturday in an address at the Vatican to members of an Italian religious television channel, Telepace.

A few hours after the war began, the Vatican expressed "deep pain" and faulted both sides for failing to find a peaceful solution, but until Saturday, the pope himself had not spoken publicly about the attacks.

John Paul has said there is no legal or moral justification for military action. He has also expressed concern that war would harm relations between Christians and Muslims.

Before the war, the pope sent a cardinal to Washington to plead with President Bush not to attack, and another cardinal to Baghdad to press Saddam Hussein to cooperate completely with U.N. weapons inspectors.

©MMIII, The Associated Press. All Rights Reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed.

[A CA Guy]

As a Catholic, I think that statement reflects the Pope does not keep up to speed with the actual goings on of the UN or the Pope sees them in light of what they are to represent, not what they ARE!

I am disappointed, yet again he may be trying to avoid a bomb in his compound, one never knows.

[Bluntpoint]

During the Clinton years of rolling over for the U.N. and treating it like an equal, there was little noise coming from the Vatican about the need for a new international order of states.

[A CA Guy]

During Clinton, there wasn't an international war on terror or threats directly positioned by Al Q at them as there seems to be now.

I think some of the speech is about that IMO!

[Bluntpoint]

There was a war going on, Clinton just did not want to openly enter the battle.

As long as everyone pretended what was happening was not happening, none of the interested parties feared the scorn of the Muslim community of wackos.

[cebadams]

As long as everyone pretended what was happening was not happening ...

How true and including us all.

[A CA Guy]

Of course, but the difference is we went on the offensive with Bush and the radicals are attempting to make this a Holy War with Christianity.

Pope might be trying to avoid that. Maybe, I don't know, but I don't agree with his view of the UN.

I think they are dangerous and mostly ruled by evil dictators.

[Hotdog]

Lets clean up your own house before you go any further...

[Bluntpoint]

We were attacked.

The Vatican was not.

If the Pope took a pricipled stance, he may very well have to face attack himself.

IMO, he is just covering the Vaticans patootie.

[sinkspur]

He's trying to HELP us, Sinky.

Hamstringing is not helping. Had we deferred to His Holiness in March, suicide bombers' families would still be getting $25K, and Hussein would be torturing his people. Oh, and Libya would NOT have been forced to knuckle-under and agree to give up its WMDs.

International bodies are worthless, militarily, since the strong are held up by the weakest members, usually some clueless pacific country, like France or Canada.

If Iraq proved anything, it proved that the United States simply doesn't need a bunch of internationalists.

[At _War_With_Liberals]

The Pope's words in 91 against socialism are diametrically opposed to recent statements.

I believe hard core international socialists in the Vaticans are controlling the message now. And I believe that the next Pope will be a big time socialist.

[Bluntpoint]

Terroristic

[A CA Guy]

He knows there as going to be actions against the Vatican since things have been found through intelligence to prove that.

The Pope also doesn't like WW3 to start in a Holy War.

I think they are all issues.

[cebadams]

OK, that's the second time today that you've been right :-)

[Bluntpoint]

WWIII has already started. The fact that some of the parties attacked are afraid to retaliate, does not change that fact.

Hitler was at war even with countries that did not offer up resistence.

[Bluntpoint]

Don't tell blackelk. He will ping the moderator and say my broken clock reached it's quota.

He has the adm mod on speed dial.

[A CA Guy]

In a way I agree, but it is not full blown because we want to deal with things on our terms.

[Bluntpoint]

Like being almost pregnant.

[B-Chan]

[A CA Guy]

Not at all.

We are around the workd fighting terror in limited areas at our own pace.
This is better for us and our economy instead of an all out world war.

[A CA Guy]

Bye bye, Happy New Year during your ww3! LOL

[cebadams]

Bluntpoint is right. The war was started years ago and we didn't realize it or take it seriously. It is full blown. This goes way beyond Iraq.

[Bluntpoint]

"Young Lady, what were your thinking? This book is only for the priests and bishops!"

[ninenot]

Socialism considers the individual person simply as an element, a molecule within the social organism, so that the good of the individual is completely subordinated to the functioning of the socio-economic mechanism.

By the way--that line reminds me of the Libertarian/WalterWilliams "mind"set, as well.

[A CA Guy]

Yep, way beyond since most Middle East countries have radicals that make up anywhere from 25-70% of their populations.

I don't debate that issue.

I am saying we are not going everywhere at once and doing parts at a time as it suits us because that is better for the nation.

[Bluntpoint]

"Some day, this war is going to be over."

[A CA Guy]

Yes, about 40 years from now.

Unless we can get Democracies started in the Middle East and can somehow ban theocracies.

[Bluntpoint]

Theo is a little wierd, but I'm not sure I want to ban Theocracies.

Theo H. Ortense

[ninenot]

If you actually READ the text, (posted on this thread around #253) you will find:

1) The Pope endorses a UN-LIKE (not necessarily the UN) solutions-body for the purpose of peaceful resolutions and other socially-positive items (hunger relief, etc., etc.)

2) The Pope (in #7 of the document, and other places) makes clear that the UN is flawed, has not done a good job, and is subject to the whims of its membership.