Eerie article on Yahoo about the shootdown of KAL 007.

Yaaaaaaaaaahoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo ^

[Poohbah]

OK, this is BS.

The Russians would have NO incentive to hold these people (one of them MIGHT escape, after all) for one nanosecond. Assuming the aircraft crashed on land, anyone alive at the crash site would have been dead before dawn.

[goodell70]

See Congressman McDonald's two-hour SUBVERSION FACTOR documentary video. Then you will understand: 1. How deception on this scale is not only possible, but to be expected; and, 2. Why the aircraft was shot down. Apart from that, the fact that the passengers were originally announced "safe" is a mere matter of record. Again, if you see THE SUBVERSION FACTOR, then you will understand why the Russians had to deceive everyone like this.

[_Jim]

Then you will understand: 1. How deception on this scale is not only possible, but to be expected;

I just love you non-technical purveyors of conspiracies who sit warm and cozy in your living rooms never ONCE having learned how systems (ANY system - like aircraft avionics, Inertial Navigations systems, COMPASSES, radio, RADAR) in the world function and operate.

However, were it not for techno-illiterates like yourselves (who spend fortunes on consultants and advice and BILLIONS on those systems that we technocrats design, build and operate) a lot of us would be out of jobs ...

For you, any amount of agrument on my part is futile because you don't even have a grasp of the basics of science.

So be it.

I just don't want to see you drag a whole lot of others down that same sinkhole you find yourself (technically speaking) ...

[Bobby777]

I would agree that the Cobra Ball RC-135 in the vicinity of KAL 007 that night would have definitely monitored the Soviet military traffic and probably the commercial traffic in the corridors adjacent to its patrol area ... no doubt as they used the cameras, and spectral equipment and other listening devices to gather as much intel as possible on the Russian missile, they certainly knew that KAL 007 was in trouble, evenutally passing over or near two severly sensitive Soviet sites ...

it may have been presumed that the Russians would determine it to be a commercial airliner creating only a minor incident by forcing it to land or diverting back to int'l airspace ... they may have also hoped for a bonus by using it as an unwitting ferret to tickle the radars around these installations and gauge the thoroughness of the Soviet response ... they may not have expected a straight shootdown and then were forced into denial ...

but given that KAL 007 was a) way outside the Romeo 20 corridor almost from the start and b) that KAL 007 reported numerous times to be at waypoints along Romeo 20 that it never reached, instead running parallel, smacks of something other than normal going on ...

I don't know if it's possible the Russians could "spoof" a commercial 747's INS but I'd guess the nature of the equipment precludes such a possibility ... any takers on this concept out there?

[Bobby777]

please respond to my 84 ... thanks ... ping for struww

[Tickle Me Pank]

Besides the 'why was there only 1 copy of the list of commies' question, there's the 'why was McDonald the only one who knew about this' question.

Or was McDonald's entire staff eliminated as well?

[Poohbah]

I don't know if it's possible the Russians could "spoof" a commercial 747's INS but I'd guess the nature of the equipment precludes such a possibility ... any takers on this concept out there?

The only way to "spoof" an INS system would involve changing the Earth's gravity field.

[struwwelpeter]

No, spoofing an INS (and there were 3 on a 747 twenty years ago) isn't possible - but operator error is. FAA regs required each INS (Honeywell LN-20 POS) to be programmed by different operators but this probably rarely got done. Either a number was transposed (on all 3 INS only likely if the same tired crewmember did each), or if the aircraft was moved during the programming.

Back in the 1950s aircraft used radio compasses which could be spoofed (the term is 'MIJI') by setting up a stronger signal on a radio beacon's frequency. An EC-130 was tricked across the Soviet Armenian border on September 2nd, 1958, and promptly shot down.

The RC-135 that was in the vicinity at the time KAL 007 first strayed into Soviet airspace was leaving the area. The operators on board probably were listening to FM and getting paperwork ready for post-mission debriefing, so it's unlikely anyone there heard anything. Misawa AB, on the otherhand, probably got a whole bunch of GCI that they didn't know what to do with until too late.

No matter, the Soviets shot it down - the pilot admitted in a TASS interview that he knew it was civilian.

KAL 007 was shot down to avoid an embarassment, since a Russian can suffer anything except ridicule. The only survivers were the conspiracy theories.

[Bobby777]

thanks ... I figured the ground / naval stations involved in the exercise would still be monitoring the Soviet traffic even with the Cobra Ball outbound as you stated ...

but KAL pilot was so far outside Romeo 20 that his equipment couldn't possible have told him that he was passing the waypoints, unless he was timing it ... and the aircraft following him reported same at one point ... I've seen some who say even minor changes in the INS would not have taken him over the path he was on ... especially with 20 years of flight experience (was it?) ... the Russians were caught with their pants down ... that was for certain ... and as you said, no pilot worth his salt, could mistake a 747 for an RC-135 ... even at night ... too much size differential ... not to mention no windows on an RC-135 ... at least not like a 747 ...

[A Little Bird]

The Russians would have NO incentive to hold these people (one of them MIGHT escape, after all) for one nanosecond. Assuming the aircraft crashed on land, anyone alive at the crash site would have been dead before dawn.

Why would the Soviets keep the KAL 007 passengers and crew alive instead of "killing off" the evidence against them?

The fate of the passengers and crew of KAL 007 needs to be viewed in the context of the Soviet Union's dealings generally with captured foreign nationals. There are the motives that are fairly well known to people that are knowledgeable about American POW/MIA issues:

1. The Soviets used captured foreigners as "bargaining chips" for western political concessions, western recognition of satellite regimes, and return of apprehended espionage agents.
2. The Soviets used captured foreigners for gaining (extorting) economic "credit" from the west.
3. Captured foreigners were used to supplement the slave labor work force for a failed economic approach - Communism.
4. Since the execution of KGB head Laventry Beria and his lieutenants - Colonel Kabulov, et al - in 1953, it had become clear that today's jailors and their supporters would be the jailed of tomorrow. Thus the fear of retribution diminished the practice of execution (as well as the most severe torments) among political prisoners.
5. Glastnost, and the opening of the books of the KGB and the Soviet repressive state system in general, would place the perpetuators of the killings of KAL 007 passengers and crew at great risk. This danger would inhibit their execution.
6. And finally, a still Biblically oriented America, a society still formed by the Christian concept of mercy may find it difficult to understand the Soviet-period-formed mentality that captured peoples are not simply to be "let go" to return to their homes or necessarily killed. They must be punished or required as conquored peoples to work it off - for life. This "working" is not so much for economic benefit to the conqueror but because the conquered have it coming to them and it is for the vindication of the victoroius.
   To illustrate - Secretary of State under President Truman, James F. Byrnes, was told in London in September of 1945 by Soviet Commissar of Foreign Affairs, Molotov (in reaction to the US's policy of simply demobilizing the Japanese Army and sending them home), "They [the Japanese] should be held as prisoners of war. We [the Allies] should do what the Red Army was doing with the Japanese it had taken in Manchuria [about 500,000] - make them work..."

[backhoe]

I have a few links regarding this near the beginning of these:

DUBOB 9-- even *more* tales from the Dark Underbelly of the Beast.....

[Poohbah]

Let's walk through these one at a time:

The Soviets used captured foreigners as "bargaining chips" for western political concessions, western recognition of satellite regimes, and return of apprehended espionage agents.

Not applicable in this case. By 1983, they'd gotten as much mileage as they could get from such moves. Also, it would entail a LOT of "LOO-CY, you got some 'SPLAININ' to do" on the part of the US, and a lot of of "Umm, well, um" on the part of the USSR. Note that captured foreigners used in such a manner were never declared dead PRIOR to their use as a bargaining chip.

The Soviets used captured foreigners for gaining (extorting) economic "credit" from the west.

Again, not applicable. They were reported as DEAD--explaining their sudden non-dead state would call into question any and all other cases involving the USSR and the declared death of foreigners.

Captured foreigners were used to supplement the slave labor work force for a failed economic approach - Communism.

OK, they get an extremely marginal economic gain in return for extreme risk should one of these folks escape.

Since the execution of KGB head Laventry Beria and his lieutenants - Colonel Kabulov, et al - in 1953, it had become clear that today's jailors and their supporters would be the jailed of tomorrow. Thus the fear of retribution diminished the practice of execution (as well as the most severe torments) among political prisoners.

But the fear of being found out as a liar would militate in FAVOR of executing foreign nationals already declared dead.

Glastnost, and the opening of the books of the KGB and the Soviet repressive state system in general, would place the perpetuators of the killings of KAL 007 passengers and crew at great risk. This danger would inhibit their execution.

Glasnost wasn't even a faint dream in 1983. If anything, it looked like the USSR was going to the worst excesses of Stalin and Beria.

And finally, a still Biblically oriented America, a society still formed by the Christian concept of mercy may find it difficult to understand the Soviet-period-formed mentality that captured peoples are not simply to be "let go" to return to their homes or necessarily killed. They must be punished or required as conquored peoples to work it off - for life. This "working" is not so much for economic benefit to the conqueror but because the conquered have it coming to them and it is for the vindication of the victoroius.

And, finally, you fail to note that these were foreigners KNOWN to have been captured by the USSR. They weren'd declared dead at the outset of their captivity.

[goodell70]

You wrote to me, "However, were it not for techno-illiterates like yourselves (who spend fortunes on consultants and advice and BILLIONS on those systems that we technocrats design, build and operate) a lot of us would be out of jobs ... For you, any amount of agrument on my part is futile because you don't even have a grasp of the basics of science. So be it. I just don't want to see you drag a whole lot of others down that same sinkhole you find yourself (technically speaking)." First of all, I apologize for not keeping up with this correspondence, because I personally believe that the issue is paramount. I was following McDonald's career closely when this happened. In fact, the original announcement was that the airplane landed and everyone was safe, at which I blurted out loudly in front of a friend, "That airplane did not land! They shot it down and killed everyone just to get McDonald!" Then, sure enough, a few hours later, the news story changed, and, yes, the Russians admitted to shooting the airplane down, causing a complete loss of life. It wasn't until a few years later when I learned that there was a complete lack of credible evidence that the airplane ever did anything but land as was originally reported that I personally was able to pick up on this idea that McDonald and the others are still over there. Incidentally, you mentioned (was it you?) that if even just one passenger escaped, it would blow the whole thing. In fact, there was at least one (maybe several, but only one I'm aware of) Americans in the east German POW garrison that managed to escape the Russians after WWII. Nonetheless, people refuse to believe that Russia took as many as 20,000 GI's as its own prisoners and they never got to come home. We are dealing with a country that is at war with us -- for religious reasons (Marxism-Leninism is as much a religion as Islam is, only it practically breaks the world record for deceit and treachery). Last, you accused me of being technically illiterate. I do happen to be an engineer (registered, with a Masters from a credible university, etc.), though I do confess that I've never flown an airplane or know much about the aircraft industry, as much as I wish otherwise. Again, I recommend to you (I strongly, strongly recommend) that you view McDonald's "The Subversion Factor" two-hour video documentary on RUssian subversion of the U.S. Government. Again, you will THEN understand why all this happened. Thank you.

[_Jim]

You wrote to me, "However, were it not for techno-illiterates like yourselves

Yes, "techno-illiterates like yourselves".

You got that much right at least.

Now, back to your soaps, pseudo-science fiction and spy novels ...

[_Jim]

I don't know if it's possible the Russians could "spoof" a commercial 747's INS but I'd guess the nature of the equipment precludes such a possibility ... any takers on this concept out there?

Check out "Mel's Hole" as featured on the Art Bell show ... 'remote viewing' might also have a tie in </sarcasm> ...

You would have to affect gravity, time and space in order to affect ANY changes on an IN unit. Unless you're prepared to explain how this is done you're just throwing terms around and idlely conjecturing about the landscape.

Maybe goodelle has some ideas - he/she/it 'claims' to have an engineering background, registered, and educated to the depth a "Masters" level at a recognized school ... so far I'd say he/she/it would have difficuly plotting the course out-of the proverbial brown-paper shopping bag ...

An registered 'engineer' with no concept of 'system' operation - what can he/she/it possibly be qualified in?

Concrete hardness calculations?

On second thought - he/she/it only seems to be versed in handling the political undercurrents of possible international treachery and coverups - forget about hard, cold factual material from this duck ...

[Bobby777]

I suppose there's something meaningful in all that *stuff* you posted there ... I cannot see where you explained fully how INS works and why it's immune from spoofing ... if you can explain, please do ... if it's an astro-tracker, well, that's enough explanation for me ...

[Bobby777]

earlier poster said INS was based on detecting Earth's magnetic field ... even my radar detector does that (it has a compass built in) ...

[goodell70]

View McDonald's (Western Goals Foundation) "The Subversion Factor." It is a two-hour documentary video on Russian subversion of the U.S. Government. Then you may understand all of this. You shouldn't carry on about something that you do not have the background for understanding, especially when it is something so easily within reach. I apologize for mentioning my engineering background -- but I just wanted to respond somehow to your dismissing this subject on the basis that persons like myself are "technically illiterate." Again, please view "The Subversion Factor." McDonald was exposing something that most people (yourself included, it is apparent in these dialogues) have no idea of. Thank you.

[mafree]

bump