Posted on 10/15/2001 6:54:40 AM PDT by malakhi
OK. Luke 2:11
SD
Interesting. Consistent, but interesting.
SD
Forgive me, brother.. it was a moment of comic weakness.... lol.
If you're talking to physically dead saints you are into spiritualism.
God bless you too!.
Why do you even bother to pretend you are a thinking individual?
You must have missed my lovely dissertation about being a sheep and having lush verdant pastures to explore while being safely kept within bounds by my loving shepherd.
Bounds are not bad. They keep me monotheistic, for one.
Just ask Holy Mother what you are supposed to think and say. That is the reason I am no longer a RC.
And this is the reason why rampant individualism and Protestantism go hand in hand. It's all about me me me. Don't like the preacher, go to a new one. Don't like the sacramentalism -- go to a different Church. Don't like their end times teaching -- go to a different Church. Can't find a good pastor -- open your own Church. Whatever suits your own individual reading of Scripture.
Then do all this while talking about the "unity" of all "true Christians" and downplaying the significance of all of the differences which cause the disunity in the first place.
It's vanity. The Devil whispers in your ear "you don't need to listen to anybody else, just read the Bible by yourself -- God promised to send his spirit to help you"
SD
Where? Chapter and verse please.
Well I learned it from Pope #1; 2 Pet. 1:20 "First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation." and 3:16 "speaking of this as he does in all his letters. There are some things in them hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other scriptures."
Before we enter into full communion with God, every trace of sin within us must be eliminated and every imperfection in our soul must be corrected
At the General Audience of Wednesday, 4 August 1999, following his catecheses on heaven and hell, the Holy Father reflected on Purgatory. He explained that physical integrity is necessary to enter into perfect communion with God therefore "the term purgatory does not indicate a place, but a condition of existence", where Christ "removes ... the remnants of imperfection".
1. As we have seen in the previous two catecheses, on the basis of the definitive option for or against God, the human being finds he faces one of these alternatives: either to live with the Lord in eternal beatitude, or to remain far from his presence. For those who find themselves in a condition of being open to God, but still imperfectly, the journey towards full beatitude requires a purification, which the faith of the Church illustrates in the doctrine of "Purgatory" (cf. Catechism of the Catholic Church, n. 1030-1032). To share in divine life we must be totally purified
2. In Sacred Scripture, we can grasp certain elements that help us to understand the meaning of this doctrine, even if it is not formally described. They express the belief that we cannot approach God without undergoing some kind of purification. According to Old Testament religious law, what is destined for God must be perfect. As a result, physical integrity is also specifically required for the realities which come into contact with God at the sacrificial level such as, for example, sacrificial animals (cf. Lv 22: 22) or at the institutional level, as in the case of priests or ministers of worship (cf. Lv 21: 17-23). Total dedication to the God of the Covenant, along the lines of the great teachings found in Deuteronomy (cf. 6: 5), and which must correspond to this physical integrity, is required of individuals and society as a whole (cf. 1 Kgs 8: 61). It is a matter of loving God with all one's being, with purity of heart and the witness of deeds (cf. ibid., 10: 12f.)
The need for integrity obviously becomes necessary after death, for entering into perfect and complete communion with God. Those who do not possess this integrity must undergo purification. This is suggested by a text of St Paul. The Apostle speaks of the value of each person's work which will be revealed on the day of judgement and says: "If the work which any man has built on the foundation [which is Christ] survives, he will receive a reward. If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire" (1 Cor 3: 14-15).
3. At times, to reach a state of perfect integrity a person's intercession or mediation is needed. For example, Moses obtains pardon for the people with a prayer in which he recalls the saving work done by God in the past, and prays for God's fidelity to the oath made to his ancestors (cf. Ex 32: 30, 11-13). The figure of the Servant of the Lord, outlined in the Book of Isaiah, is also portrayed by his role of intercession and expiation for many; at the end of his suffering he "will see the light" and "will justify many", bearing their iniquities (cf. Is 52: 13-53, 12, especially vv. 53: 11).
Psalm 51 can be considered, according to the perspective of the Old Testament, as a synthesis of the process of reintegration: the sinner confesses and recognizes his guilt (v. 3), asking insistently to be purified or "cleansed" (vv. 2, 9, 10, 17) so as to proclaim the divine praise (v. 15).
Purgatory is not a place but a condition of existence
4. In the New Testament Christ is presented as the intercessor who assumes the functions of high priest on the day of expiation (cf. Heb 5: 7; 7: 25). But in him the priesthood is presented in a new and definitive form. He enters the heavenly shrine once and for all, to intercede with God on our behalf (cf. Heb 9: 23-26, especially, v. 24). He is both priest and "victim of expiation" for the sins of the whole world (cf. 1 Jn 2: 2).
Jesus, as the great intercessor who atones for us, will fully reveal himself at the end of our life when he will express himself with the offer of mercy, but also with the inevitable judgement for those who refuse the Father's love and forgiveness.
This offer of mercy does not exclude the duty to present ourselves to God, pure and whole, rich in that love which Paul calls a "[bond] of perfect harmony" (Col 3: 14).
5. In following the Gospel exhortation to be perfect like the heavenly Father (cf. Mt 5: 48) during our earthly life, we are called to grow in love, to be sound and flawless before God the Father "at the coming of our Lord Jesus with all his saints" (1 Thes 3: 12f.). Moreover, we are invited to "cleanse ourselves from every defilement of body and spirit" (2 Cor 7: 1; cf. 1 Jn 3: 3), because the encounter with God requires absolute purity.
Every trace of attachment to evil must be eliminated, every imperfection of the soul corrected. Purification must be complete, and indeed this is precisely what is meant by the Church's teaching on purgatory. The term does not indicate a place, but a condition of existence. Those who, after death, exist in a state of purification, are already in the love of Christ who removes from them the remnants of imperfection (cf. Ecumenical Council of Florence, Decretum pro Graecis: DS 1304; Ecumenical Council of Trent, Decretum de iustificatione: DS 1580; Decretum de purgatorio: DS 1820).
It is necessary to explain that the state of purification is not a prolongation of the earthly condition, almost as if after death one were given another possibility to change one's destiny. The Church's teaching in this regard is unequivocal and was reaffirmed by the Second Vatican Council which teaches: "Since we know neither the day nor the hour, we should follow the advice of the Lord and watch constantly so that, when the single course of our earthly life is completed (cf. Heb 9: 27), we may merit to enter with him into the marriage feast and be numbered among the blessed, and not, like the wicked and slothful servants, be ordered to depart into the eternal fire, into the outer darkness where "men will weep and gnash their teeth' (Mt 22: 13 and 25: 30)" (Lumen gentium, n. 48).
6. One last important aspect which the Church's tradition has always pointed out should be reproposed today: the dimension of "communio". Those, in fact, who find themselves in the state of purification are united both with the blessed who already enjoy the fullness of eternal life, and with us on this earth on our way towards the Father's house (cf. CCC, n. 1032).
Just as in their earthly life believers are united in the one Mystical Body, so after death those who live in a state of purification experience the same ecclesial solidarity which works through prayer, prayers for suffrage and love for their other brothers and sisters in the faith. Purification is lived in the essential bond created between those who live in this world and those who enjoy eternal beatitude.
Well, I sure haven't forgotten my loved ones who are with Christ. Fixing my eyes on Jesus (Heb. 12:2) does not cause me to lose sight of my morTality. My morTality has been dealt with in Christ. Now I fix my eyes on Him so that I "do not grow weary and lose heart in this race that is set before me." (Heb. 12:1)
Or could you be implying that the obsession with dead people is for the benefit of non-believers...so that THEY will consider their mortality? Hmmmm...well, I guess that is one tactic for reaching the lost.
Show me where the commandment makes exceptions. Get out your Bible and read what it says, then show me where it makes any exceptions. Read it a couple of times if you need to. You'll find it makes no exceptions. Don't make to yourselves images. Not of men, birds, fish Animals that walk the earth. Don't bow to them.... nowhere in there does it say "except if it's me or one of my followers. Then it's ok." No, it says anyone doing these things will suffer the wrath of the lord who imposes his judgements down through 4 generations (Sinner, Sinner's kids, Sinner's grandkids, Sinner's great grandkids). You want personal, God made it personal, if you screw up, he'll make your great grandchildren sorry you did it. He is merciful too; but, he doesn't play games.
I'm confused. Are your loved ones with Christ dead or alive?
SD
You must have missed my post to Soothing Dave in which I received no response. I'll repost it for you here in quotes. "I'll just add a little context here. 1:24 Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife: 1:25 And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS."
Case closed.
You can counter all ya like. But next time try and counter with something other than utter foolishness.
So better to rule in Hell than serve in Heaven? We need a new line for Proddies, how about "better to be my own master than be ordered to go to Heaven!"
It is impossible to add to the truth. The truth is the truth. It doesn't grow, it doesn't change form, it doesn't evolve. You are spouting propaganda.
Do try to keep up. I said adding to the store of UNDERSTANDING. By context, adding to the store of UNDERSTANDING of the Truth.
I didn't say we added to the Truth, which is your objection. I said our UNDERSTANDING of the Truth changes, grows.
Now will you try again. Are you the same in your UNDERSTANDING of Truth now as when you were just a pup in Christ? Or has that UNDERSTANDING grown? Well?
SD
So He doesn't teach and lead individuals, like me and you, but only the magic sternum?
You received no response because it is pointless to try to reason with you on this point. You know that Joseph had sex with Mary as soon as Jesus was born and there is no getting you to even consider the possibility of something different.
SD
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