Posted on 09/18/2001 5:32:20 AM PDT by ChaseR
I was listening to Mike Savage earlier today after Dornan and overheard that Bush might try to appease the Middle East by getting the "peace agreement" going between Israel and Palestine. Now you tell me who's really behind that one!
That's O. K. sympathizer - I'll make up for this loss of identification by highlighting Commie; good idea eh.
Communist sympathizer Black Jade, still trying to ward off the truth:
Or better yet, just stop the nonsense, about "Communist sympathizer Jade," "Communist apologist Jade," etc."
Won't happen Communist sympathizer.
(Communist sympathizer Jade, all readers see exactly how you operate ie. above, many times, I put two very important questions to you - but you still aren't giving us a Yes or No - - a Confirm or Deny. Get to it - Jake.
(you know jade, you're too funny, you really are - you're trying to come across so serious, but to no avail - I'm going to give ya some continuous slaps and sometimes I'll be referring to ya - as our Communist sympathizer BlackJadeSleeperfoowoo... quite appropriate huh/you can handle that, huh fooey.
Now don't go away Jadefoo, the two questions will be up again momentarily.
Communist sympathizer BlackJadeSleeperfoowoo, Yes or No, is it possible that at some point in the future, Communist China might instruct Hutchison/Whampoa to stop U. S. ships from traversing the Panama Canal? Yes or No - Confirm or Deny communist sympathizer Jakefoowoo.
Nope, won't work Communist sympathizer/sleeper Jade. Simply answer one way or the other:
Yes or No Confirm or Deny Communist sympathizer/apologist/sleeper jade - is it possible that China has already/is presently/or will in the future - bring weapons, munitions, arms and short-range missiles and/or medium-range missiles (or missile parts) into Panama? Yes or No Jade, Confirm or Deny.
Yes or No Communist sympathizer/apologist/sleeper jade, is it possible that at some point in the future, Communist China might instruct Hutchison/Whampoa to stop U. S. ships from traversing the Panama Canal. Yes or No Jade, Confirm or Deny.
Now, here's some stuff I found while perusing Alamo-Girl's invaluable website...
"The Center For Security Policy 7/2/99 "…As Adm. Moorer put it: ...There's far more going on [in Panama] then meets the eye. A company called Panama Ports Company, S.A., affiliated with Hutchinson Whampoa, Ltd. through its owner, Mr. Li Ka-Shing, currently maintains control of four of the Panama Canal's major ports. Now, Panama Port Company is 10 percent owned by China Resources Enterprise, the commercial arm of China's Ministry of Trade and Economic Cooperation….. In their best-selling book, Year of the Rat, Edward Timperlake and William C. Triplett III claimed that China Resources "had previously been identified as an associate of Chinese military intelligence." The authors also identified ties between Li Ka-shing and known arms-smuggler Wang Jun, head of Polytechnologies, an enterprise closely associated with the People's Liberation Army. The Senate [Government Reform] Committee...revealed that Hutchison Whampoa's subsidiary, HIT, has business ventures with the China Ocean Shipping Company (COSCO), which is owned by the People's Liberation Army. COSCO has been criticized for shipping Chinese missiles, missile components, jet fighters and other weapons technologies to nations such as Libya, Iraq, Iran and Pakistan. In 1996, the U.S. Customs Service seized a shipment of 2,000 automatic weapons aboard a COSCO ship at the port of Oakland, California. The man identified as the arms dealer, Wang Jun, is the head of China's Polytechnologies Company, the international outlet for Chinese weapons sales. Jun also sits on the Board of the China International Trust and Investment Corporation (CITIC),(1) the chief investment arm of the Chinese central government. It is also the bank of the People's Liberation Army, providing financing for Chinese Army weapons sales and for the purchase of Western technology. Jun's fellow CITIC Board member is Mr. Li Ka-shing, chairman of Hutchison Whampoa Ltd…."
The Center For Security Policy 7/2/99 "…Li Ka-shing has profound ties to the Beijing regime. Li has invested more than a billion dollars in China and owns most of the dock space in Hong Kong. In an exclusive deal with the People's Republic of China's communist government, Li has the right of first-refusal over all PRC ports south of the Yangtze river, which involves a close working relationship with the Chinese military and businesses controlled by the People's Liberation Army. Li has served as a middle man for PLA business dealings with the West. For example, Li financed several satellite deals between the U.S. Hughes Corporation and China Hong Kong Satellite [CHINASAT], a company owned by the People's Liberation Army. In 1997, Li Ka-shing and the Chinese Navy nearly obtained four huge roll-on/roll-off container ships -- which can be used for transporting military cargo -- in a deal that would have been financed by U.S. taxpayers. A June 1997 Rand report, "Chinese Military Commerce and U.S. National Security," stated, "Hutchison Whampoa of Hong Kong, controlled by Hong Kong billionaire Li Ka-shing, is also negotiating for PLA wireless system contracts, which would build upon his equity interest in Poly-owned Yangpu Land Development Company, which is building infrastructure on China's Hainan Island." In 1998, Li Ka-shing attempted to issue $2 billion in bonds, through his Hutchison company, in the United States. According to the Dow Jones Newswire, Hutchison revealed that 50 percent of the bonds would be used through a subsidiary known as Chung Kiu Communications Ltd., which had signed agreements to provide cellular services and equipment to joint ventures between the People's Liberation Army and the Chinese Ministry of Posts and Telecommunications."
Excerpts from China's Beachhead at Panama Canal by J. Michael Waller Insight Magazine 7/25/99 "...Hutchison Whampoa is more than a Hong Kong shipping giant. Company chairman Li Ka-shing is an important cog in the economic machinery of the Chinese Communist Party and the PLA. Li is a board member of the Chinese government's main investment arm, the China International Trust and Investment Corp., or CITIC, run by official PLA arms marketeer and smuggler Wang Jun. According to Santoli, Li "has invested more than a billion dollars in China and owns most of the dock space in Hong Kong." Additionally, "Li has served as a middle man for PLA business dealings with the West," financing some of the controversial Hughes Electronics Corp.-Loral Space & Communications deals found to have been conduits for weapons technology to Beijing. He also has been a powerful ally of the Mochtar Riady financial empire of Indonesia -- the Lippo Group family that according to sworn testimony paid off Clinton's friends and political allies on behalf of Chinese military intelligence...."
Excerpts from China's Beachhead at Panama Canal by J. Michael Waller Insight Magazine 7/25/99 "...Hutchison Whampoa's port subsidiary, Hutchison International Terminals, or HIT, which in turn runs the Panama Ports Co., does substantial business with the PLA-owned China Ocean Shipping Company, or COSCO, which has been seeking to take over former naval facilities in Southern California. Some of Hutchison's board members consult to COSCO. China Resources Enterprise, or CRE, the commercial arm of Beijing's Ministry of Trade and Economic Cooperation, owns 10 percent of the Panama Ports Co. The Senate Governmental Affairs Committee has identified CRE as a vehicle for "espionage -- economic, political and military -- for China."
Hmmmmm...anybody still wanna argue that Hutchinson-Whampoa's and the PLA's control of the Panama Canal for the next 48 years is NOT a MAJOR NATIONAL SECURITY CONCERN for America?!
I didn't think so...MUD
Hmmmm...this characterization seems a tad naive, my FRiend. It's kinda late here on the East Coast and I really need to be getting to sleep, but let me see if I can figger out a way to make my point...
In America, the Government is said to be "Of the People, By the People, and For the People", so, in theory and Constitutionally/Legally, You and I run the Federal Government--along with a Few Hundred Million others. Well, in Reality, I wouldda never Slaughtered Thousands of Innocent Civilians in Kosovo, but Thousands of Innocent Civilians WERE SLAUGHTERED in Kosovo nonetheless. WHY?!
Because the EX-Traitor-in-Chief was in control of the Military via our Constitutional Mandate and he needed a diversion from his domestic/personal problems and was more than willing to MURDER a bunch of lowly Christians to save his own hide, THAT'S WHY!! See, my FRiend, in reality our Guv'ment--and Panama's and China's--is run by individuals, and some individuals are not constrained by Legal Documents or Morality. To state simply that "...Gertz even quotes from the Canal treaty that clearly states the all control and authority over the Canal rest with the Republic of Panama. H-W is not the Republic of Panama. No commercial agreement can override the Panama Canal treaty" is, IM(very)HO, quite naive.
"If anyone has not read "The China Threat," for themselves, I would urge them to do so, and form their own conclusions about this."
I will add this to my reading list, Ms. Jade...who are the authors?
FReegards...MUD
No offense intended, my FRiend...I never said YOU were "naive," just your specific characterization, IMHO.
"I am fully aware of the triad-PRC, as well as the numerous other triad connections with other governments, including our own. The Charlie Trie & Riady matters go all the way back to BCCI & Mena."
I don't want to go there right now, so don't feel compelled to provide evidence, but you really believe Riady's linked to Mena? Interesting...
"Given what we know about Li Ka-shing's triad & PRC connections, and what COSCO has a history of doing, I mentioned in post #148, what we should be VERY concerned about at the Panama Canal and any place where Hutchison-Whampoa has a major contract."
LOL...if you would just admit that to ChaseR, that boy would lose a very valued "nemesis"!! And with "j_accuse" gone from the picture, I'm worried about what that would do to my FRiend's FReeper motivation!! Ain't that right, Jeff?! =^D
"These are very realistic possibilities: human trafficking, the drug trade, pirated goods, smuggling in AK47s, and grafting triad enterprises with "legitimate" businesses. Bringing in missiles from the PRC or any other country is another matter."
Logistically, I can see your point...however, the "concern" about the possibility is the primary reason for these Panama threads in the first place, IMHO.
"Neither the PRC or H-W is the least bit concerned with "morality.""
Agreed...
"As far as contrained by "legal documents," it depends on the nature of the document and context in which it was made. The Panama Canal Treaty is a document that governs the overall functioning of the Panama Canal. If H-W wants to be a part of the economic structure of the Canal, they have to work with the other contractors, which include Evergreen, a Taiwan firm, and many US firms, as well as others from Europe and Asia. The administration of the Canal rests with the government of Panama so that no one firm will run the show. The Neutrality Treaty that I mentioned in Post #118, in effect, makes the US government and the US military the guarantors of the Canal as a whole. The PRC may want to rule the world, but that doesn't mean that they do."
Fair enough...however, I still chaff at the underhanded way H-W obtained the 50-year contract to run both ends of the Canal. Just because the PRC may not have full control of the Canal at the present time, shouldn't we follow up on AT LEAST forcing the illegal bids to be abandoned and the Contract Re-Bid with appropriate oversight?!
"Mud, think this through, from a logistical standpoint."
I've already conceded the legitimacy of your logistics point above...although I also believe that "where there's a will, there's a way." "Well, according to the copy I have in front of me right now, the author is "Bill Gertz."
Duhhh, my bad.
LOL and FReegards...MUD
Yes or No jade, is it possible that at some point in the future, Communist China might instruct Hutchison/Whampoa to stop U. S. ships from traversing the Panama Canal. Yes or No Jade, Confirm or Deny.
We can continuously hypothesize about what the Chinese are ABLE to do at the expense of realistically asking "What are the LIKELY to do, assuming they have an ounce of common sense in their heads?"
Here's my point: nuclear weapons storage is best conducted in a facility that is obviously very high security. You can try to have "security through obscurity," but that relies on EVERYONE who has access to the whereabouts of these weapons being pure, trustworthy, AND not liable to make a mistake that would lead to disclosure of said information, and EVERY DEVICE that stores said information (file cabinet, computer server, etc.) being perfectly secure.
And when you put it that way...it's a silly notion. Any security professional, when he hears this idea mooted, would laugh in your face. Security based on very few people knowing about the presence of these weapons, AND NOTHING ELSE, will result in the locations of these weapons eventually being compromised--and if said compromise is unknown, the first warning would be when somebody succeeded in stealing the weapons. That's just a wee bit late. If said compromise IS known about, then it becomes a race to relocate the weapons (and moving them adds to the risk of theft--can you trust the truck drivers? Was the "discovery" of the compromise an elaborate ruse intended to actually reveal your contingency plans for guarding those weapons? Enquiring minds want to know) before the OPFOR can swipe them.
So, proper nuclear weapons security implies that, for example, the areas in which these weapons are stored would be very heavily secured with heavily armed guard patrols, a "layered" perimiter that would slow down an intruder and notify the defenders of his presence, and a VERY heavily-armed reaction force to deal with an intrusion effort--because you NEVER take risks with nuclear weapons security. (Suppose some doomsday cult found out about these weapons and where they were stored?) Such facilities would be extremely obvious to even the most basic reconnaisance effort. (Heck, Joe Citizen, if he were willing to spend the dollars, could buy the imagery from SPOT or one of SPOT's competitors--and compare them against archive imagery on Terraserver.
So, in conclusion, it would NOT be difficult to locate Chinese nuclear weapons storage sites in the New World. The fact that Gertz has to repeatedly use the weasel words "could," "might," and "possibly" indicates that no one's seen them yet.
Like I said earlier, we can engage in "Well, the Chinese COULD do this extremely stupid and self-destructive behavior" until the heat death of the Universe. How about engaging in REALISTIC assessments of what's going on?
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